This is ridiculous

[? Frisky Dingo ?]

This is not rediculous.......
THIS IS SPARTA!

This .

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETgk56xT4Mk&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETgk56xT4Mk&feature=related[/ame]

It is eGO policy to not to tell others how to play a specific class any way as well as not to put caps on how many can play a particular class, so more pew pew and less QQ .

 

[DRaGZ]

Those sentries are easy, just switch to Medic and find a Demoman with the sticky launcher. Or switch to Demo and spam the battlements with pipe bombs from in the water.

That does not work...at all.

Those sentries have effectively locked down the ENTIRE bridge area. This means the front is regularly patrolled by friendlies, which means you are not getting anywhere near the bridge/water without being goaded by their friends.

Not to mention, by the time you hit the water, you're probably already in the sights of the Engies' Wrangled Sentries.

And this is compounded by the fact that the smarter Wrangling Engies do it a good distance away from their own Sentries and that their Sentries effectively have almost 650 HP.

It's like...trying to break through a brick wall with your fists.

 

[Lava]

Now? What Teufort have you been playing on? Over the last year and a half, except for very, very special circumstances, I avoid Teufort, and especially Teufort instaspawn because Teufort is nothing but deathmatch. The path to and from intel is incredibly long, with lots of opportunities to get caught and killed. Whenever I do play Teufort (either version) the games last forever, with very little cappage unless one team is just incredibly braindead.

It's why I've come to love Turbine. It's CTF, my favorite game mode, with a sane distance between Intels and wide open spaces for assaults (except for the vents, which are specialized). I consider Turbine "Teufort 2.0"... but I'm off topic.

So instead of 7 snipers standing shoulder to shoulder on the battlements you've got a few Engies. Follow Dreadmaker's advice. Or get some medics to built kritz and snipe-soldier the Engies (then Sentries) to bits. Or use the underwater path to build a base inside theirs. Engineers focused on the battlements are not protecting the interior... sounds like a good way to set up a rush.

Every. Single. Update. is full of QQ as people discover that the cheap methods they've been using to win have been supplanted by the cheap methods made possible by the new update. Team Fortress 2 is a cheap game. From ubercharges to one-sticky-spam-death, the game is DESIGNED to get you killed as quick as possible. Amazing as it may sound, there's a reason why the title has the word "Team" in it. You can't he-man your way through. You're going to actually have to coordinate your attacks because, gasp!, the defensive Engineer class is not very, very defensive!

Just think of the Wrangler as revenge for all the sentry guns we've had blow up in our face due to cheap sparkle rockets, single stickies, bonk-d Scouts, uber-rushes, spy sappers, out-of-range-snipes, circle-strafing pyros, and invulnerable heavies... I.E. all the cheap tricks everyone else could use to destroy our minute and a half of work.

With that said... how the HECK were Engineers able to build two sentries on their battlements? Was RED 16 Engineers? It takes time to build up a sentry, time which should not be possible unless you guys are playing Teufort wrong.

</rant>

Wall of Letters hits lava for over 5000 hp.

 

[=[Ga]= AutoDMC]

With the above said, my second favorite class is Soldier, and I've found myself up against wrangled sentries. I fully expect Valve to nerf the shields that the Wrangled sentries get (when I proposed a laser-following-sentry, I never thought of adding a shield. That's just wrong. Don't give me infinite range AND shields), and nerf the ability to carry buildings (I 'spect something like the Heavy's "walking while spinning" speed nerf).

I think the currently shipped update is way overbalanced... but when has it not ever been for every update ever? I just hope Valve doesn't turn the dial back too far. Sentries, per design, should be ever-accurate aimbots or ever-accurate wrangled bots. But they shouldn't be neigh invulnerable.

 

[DRaGZ]

Now? What Teufort have you been playing on? Over the last year and a half, except for very, very special circumstances, I avoid Teufort, and especially Teufort instaspawn because Teufort is nothing but deathmatch. The path to and from intel is incredibly long, with lots of opportunities to get caught and killed. Whenever I do play Teufort (either version) the games last forever, with very little cappage unless one team is just incredibly braindead.

It's why I've come to love Turbine. It's CTF, my favorite game mode, with a sane distance between Intels and wide open spaces for assaults (except for the vents, which are specialized). I consider Turbine "Teufort 2.0"... but I'm off topic.

So instead of 7 snipers standing shoulder to shoulder on the battlements you've got a few Engies. Follow Dreadmaker's advice. Or get some medics to built kritz and snipe-soldier the Engies (then Sentries) to bits. Or use the underwater path to build a base inside theirs. Engineers focused on the battlements are not protecting the interior... sounds like a good way to set up a rush.

Every. Single. Update. is full of QQ as people discover that the cheap methods they've been using to win have been supplanted by the cheap methods made possible by the new update. Team Fortress 2 is a cheap game. From ubercharges to one-sticky-spam-death, the game is DESIGNED to get you killed as quick as possible. Amazing as it may sound, there's a reason why the title has the word "Team" in it. You can't he-man your way through. You're going to actually have to coordinate your attacks because, gasp!, the defensive Engineer class is not very, very defensive!

Just think of the Wrangler as revenge for all the sentry guns we've had blow up in our face due to cheap sparkle rockets, single stickies, bonk-d Scouts, uber-rushes, spy sappers, out-of-range-snipes, circle-strafing pyros, and invulnerable heavies... I.E. all the cheap tricks everyone else could use to destroy our minute and a half of work.

With that said... how the HECK were Engineers able to build two sentries on their battlements? Was RED 16 Engineers? It takes time to build up a sentry, time which should not be possible unless you guys are playing Teufort wrong.

</rant>

2Fort used to be stalemate Deathmatch when neither team was doing very well. Basically, if both teams were apathetic enough, nothing occurred. But if one team was very adamant (and really, it only takes like 4-5 dedicated players), they would always win.

Now, it has turned into a game where, a team can literally prevent ANYTHING from occurring at all. Basically, the team that TRIES now does so for the point of making sure nothing occurs.

As for the points you brought up, Kritz is absolutely useless, crits don't affect buildings whatsoever and the Engies will just all aim at your until you are dead. You may get one or two, but there are three more to take their place.

You mention both "stalemate" and "He-maning" in the same breath. If you COULD "He-Man" at all through 2Fort, how was it supposed to be a "stalemate" in the first place? A self-contradiction, thus argument is void.

Defensive Engineer is actually MORE defensive than ever, he's just much, much better at it. The Sentry's two major weakness, range limits and intelligence, have been completely removed + it is now much stronger and faster. It becomes a game of FORCED stalemate rather than both teams agreeing to an uneasy truce of a stalemate.

And, oh my God, people actually used teamwork to get rid of your Sentries in the past! Wait, you're the one who mentioned having to use teamwork in the first place...so...again, contradicting yourself.

The problem lies with the SHIELD. Any amount of strength the Sentries put out is easily instantly negated by a well-timed and coordinated Uber, but the shield makes it impossible for that Uber to do any meaningful damage.

 

[Xerticle]

I gave up on my stats a while ag, mr. coooooooool. >..>

However the problem I believe lies in the instant respawn.
The combo of being able to move a level 3 sentry in the front and protect the assets with an army of sentries is unstoppable on 2fort. With instant respawn they can get back to their buildings before they are destroyed. I'm simply worried that its too easy to build up a sentry wall on the battlements and too hard to take it down. Now that sentries can have unlimited range its basically a crapshoot. Snipers were so afraid to pop out seeing three red lines pointing straight across their potential line of site with rockets and bullets creating a wall of death only a mad man would cross. Not to mention this gave the other teams snipers free range over the entire map. Snipers were a problem before and they only get stronger with such protection.

 

[Cut Chem!st]

The game isn't balanced around 32 insta-respawn 2fort.

 

[DRaGZ]

The game isn't balanced around 32 insta-respawn 2fort.

It's true. I hope this will eventually lead us going back to normal respawn 2Fort. That would solve a loooot of problems.

 

[=[Ga]= AutoDMC]

*sigh* Lava, grab a Super Potion before you read this.

2Fort used to be stalemate Deathmatch when neither team was doing very well. Basically, if both teams were apathetic enough, nothing occurred. But if one team was very adamant (and really, it only takes like 4-5 dedicated players), they would always win.

That's never been my experience. My experience is that unless one team is STRONGLY motivated and the other team is STRONGLY braindead, the game always deadlocks. The power imbalance has to be very high to get anything other than deathmatching done. There isn't a lot of give and take on Teufort. Heck, the map has "fort" in it's name and that's how it plays. Both sides build up neigh invincible forts and then a few skirmishers try to break through.

This can be subverted with a coordinated rush... but that is exactly what the non QQers here are advocating; a bit of coordinated effort.

Now, it has turned into a game where, a team can literally prevent ANYTHING from occurring at all. Basically, the team that TRIES now does so for the point of making sure nothing occurs.

...which is Teufort. Teufort has always been broken in the TF2 style of gameplay, it just gets more broken with every update.

As for the points you brought up, Kritz is absolutely useless, crits don't affect buildings whatsoever and the Engies will just all aim at your until you are dead. You may get one or two, but there are three more to take their place.

Here's an idea: two medics with Kritz and two soldiers. At the count of 3, they critz and then spam the battlements. The sentries are unharmed, yes, but the Engies are giblets. The wranglers deactivate as well as the sentries. This gives you 3 seconds to kill the sentries and move forward. Move snipers on the battlements to keep Engineers pinned down. Move demos forward to carpet bomb the battlements.

That's just one idea, there's plenty more. If you can get your "Team" coordinated you can break the wrangler deadlock.

You mention both "stalemate" and "He-maning" in the same breath. If you COULD "He-Man" at all through 2Fort, how was it supposed to be a "stalemate" in the first place? A self-contradiction, thus argument is void.

I love when people on the Internet start "voiding" arguments. Especially when their voiding argument is invalid. I never mentioned stalemates; you did. I discuss deadlock in the first paragraph, and he-men in the fourth. Therefore your void is void.

However, even so, my argument stands: Teufort depends on teamwork more than any other map due to the drawbacks above. Most people I hear QQ on Teufort when I decide my self-loathing is high enough to play seem to complain about not being able to be "their" class, or people not assisting "them" to make their big push. At no time do they attempt to organize anything, they just seem to think that by playing the team will gel around them because they are that awesome. That's the He-Man I'm talking about. And He-Men who try to kill sentries on their own will now die. But team players who take a second in their fort to plan a coordinated attack can still surprise wrangled sentries. You just can't steamroll through them like you used to.

And, oh my God, people actually used teamwork to get rid of your Sentries in the past! Wait, you're the one who mentioned having to use teamwork in the first place...so...again, contradicting yourself.

Uhh... no. Of the sentries I've lost over the years, way too many of them have died to corner-snipers and pipe-spam demos, or spies sappin my scent tree, or a circle strafing scout/pyro. While it's EASIER with a medic, or somebody to distract the sentry, it's never a requirement. So there you go again... failing in your logic.

The problem lies with the SHIELD. Any amount of strength the Sentries put out is easily instantly negated by a well-timed and coordinated Uber, but the shield makes it impossible for that Uber to do any meaningful damage.

And if you read my second post, you'll see we agree. When I read the shield, I pointed at it and told my imaginary cat, "That's going to be a problem." I'm sure with the professional-level-playtesters in Valve who do nothing but play TF2 all day, the extra HP was a requirement/need. Then, like every other update, they put the sentries in the real world and see that the shield is way too powerful. 60% damage reduction? 25%, maybe, to make up for the fact that the Engie has to stand around with his laser pointer out instead of his wrench... oh wait, did I just logically discover why they added damage reduction? Yes, yes I did. Turn off the laser pointer to repair and your sentry is deaf and dumb for 3 seconds. The shield allows you to keep your sentry alive long enough to be useful when unable to wrench.

Reduce the damage reduction, but don't remove it. It's needed, but right now it's way too much. Welcome to every update ever from Valve.

Off topic note: Could we please not put full resolution screenshots on the forum? I have to scroll back and forth to read every line.

 

[dy1an]

Entire 2fort is babies!

:glare:

You'll pay for that comment Thereven.....

 

[Ruthless]

honestly, why don't one of you who think it's NOT imbalanced try being a demo with 4 sentries up there
first of all. when wrangled they take a LOT more stickies to destroy them, second there's 4+ firing rocking blowing you back not to mention the non-engi's moving you back
It's a lot more difficult than you guys make it out to be.
The sentries CAN be taken down but it takes like 1 to 2 maybe even 3 ubers at the same time to destroy all 5 of them up there.

 

[=[Ga]= AutoDMC]

The sentries CAN be taken down but it takes like 1 to 2 maybe even 3 ubers at the same time to destroy all 5 of them up there.

Ubers required to destroy sentries? Warms my heart.

Wait... you're saying teamwork is required...?

 

[Dreadmaker]

honestly, why don't one of you who think it's NOT imbalanced try being a demo with 4 sentries up there
first of all. when wrangled they take a LOT more stickies to destroy them, second there's 4+ firing rocking blowing you back not to mention the non-engi's moving you back
It's a lot more difficult than you guys make it out to be.
The sentries CAN be taken down but it takes like 1 to 2 maybe even 3 ubers at the same time to destroy all 5 of them up there.

I love wrangled sentries when they're pointed at me. Why? because they're the easiest thing in the world to kill.

I play heavy on mesa all the time, and I love wranglers. They're great! Kill the engie, who's too focused on dealing with aiming, and then beat the hell out of his gun when it's inactive.

Sentries that are controlled introduce human error, and trust me guys, I've played demo, soldier, even PYRO and still killed wrangled sentries all over the place. 2fort always has a million snipers in it; why don't you just snipe the engies in the head? It's the easiest thing in the world.


Here's the issue, folks. (Lava, take a double dip of that super pot)


The people who whine about each individual update are the same people. It doesn't even matter what the differences are; the engie could have been given a sniper rifle for all anyone cares. The problem is that the whiners DON'T KNOW HOW TO ADAPT.

Look at the pyro update, when they gave him the air blast ability. OH, IT'S SO OVERPOWERED yelled all the soldiers and demos. "It reflects my stuff and I can't kill them anymore!" Everyone complained about that so much... and look at us today. People are saying the pyro is underpowered, even after they BUFFED that very thing that we called OP 2 years back.

Soldier update. "THE DH IS SO OP! it can kill low health classes in ONE SHOT, it's not fair!" Yeah, it can, but did we forget about the fact that you need to actually aim it and hit someone with it? Better yet, do we notice that for all of the EXTREME POWER the weapon has, very few soldiers actually use it today? weird how that works, eh?

I could go on. There are lots of examples. But here's the thing: the people who whined were the people being repeatedly killed by said object, because they couldn't adapt. It's so incredibly easy to kill compression pyros as a soldier; use the shotgun, or just aim your rockets to the sides of them so they can't reflect them back. It's really easy to kill a DH soldier as anything; just jump and move around. Most of them aren't good enough to actually hit you worth a damn, and the splash is useless.

The people who figured that stuff out within the first couple of days of those updates were happy, and thought they were balanced. Both of those things require a great level of skill to take advantage of effectively. Those who kept getting killed because they didn't adapt and find a way to exploit the new weaknesses those weapons created cried about it.

Is this different? It sure isn't. The wrangler is easy as hell to kill. You kill the engie and it's done. Frankly, I don't think it would matter if the shield was 99% effective; the wrangler's limitations make it useless against competent opposition. The engineer's new weapons are entirely balanced as far as I can see, and I think, unlike auto, that shield makes it balanced. if it weren't for the shield, nobody would use it in the long run, because it's just too easy to kill.

Don't just take it from me; ask any of the medics that I've asked to not waste their ubers because I can take the gun out without it. Ask my teammates who have watched me do it, and then LEARNED TO DO IT THEMSELVES. Adaptation is the key to being a great player, and whether it's 2fort or mesa, it doesn't make a difference.

TL;DR: The wrangler is balanced, and if you're having issues with it, you need to learn to deal with it. I promise you they aren't invulnerable, nor are they overpowered. They're hard to use and make the engineer incredibly vulnerable.

 

[Lava]

I love wrangled sentries when they're pointed at me. Why? because they're the easiest thing in the world to kill.

I play heavy on mesa all the time, and I love wranglers. They're great! Kill the engie, who's too focused on dealing with aiming, and then beat the hell out of his gun when it's inactive.

Sentries that are controlled introduce human error, and trust me guys, I've played demo, soldier, even PYRO and still killed wrangled sentries all over the place. 2fort always has a million snipers in it; why don't you just snipe the engies in the head? It's the easiest thing in the world.


Here's the issue, folks. (Lava, take a double dip of that super pot)


The people who whine about each individual update are the same people. It doesn't even matter what the differences are; the engie could have been given a sniper rifle for all anyone cares. The problem is that the whiners DON'T KNOW HOW TO ADAPT.

Look at the pyro update, when they gave him the air blast ability. OH, IT'S SO OVERPOWERED yelled all the soldiers and demos. "It reflects my stuff and I can't kill them anymore!" Everyone complained about that so much... and look at us today. People are saying the pyro is underpowered, even after they BUFFED that very thing that we called OP 2 years back.

Soldier update. "THE DH IS SO OP! it can kill low health classes in ONE SHOT, it's not fair!" Yeah, it can, but did we forget about the fact that you need to actually aim it and hit someone with it? Better yet, do we notice that for all of the EXTREME POWER the weapon has, very few soldiers actually use it today? weird how that works, eh?

I could go on. There are lots of examples. But here's the thing: the people who whined were the people being repeatedly killed by said object, because they couldn't adapt. It's so incredibly easy to kill compression pyros as a soldier; use the shotgun, or just aim your rockets to the sides of them so they can't reflect them back. It's really easy to kill a DH soldier as anything; just jump and move around. Most of them aren't good enough to actually hit you worth a damn, and the splash is useless.

The people who figured that stuff out within the first couple of days of those updates were happy, and thought they were balanced. Both of those things require a great level of skill to take advantage of effectively. Those who kept getting killed because they didn't adapt and find a way to exploit the new weaknesses those weapons created cried about it.

Is this different? It sure isn't. The wrangler is easy as hell to kill. You kill the engie and it's done. Frankly, I don't think it would matter if the shield was 99% effective; the wrangler's limitations make it useless against competent opposition. The engineer's new weapons are entirely balanced as far as I can see, and I think, unlike auto, that shield makes it balanced. if it weren't for the shield, nobody would use it in the long run, because it's just too easy to kill.

Don't just take it from me; ask any of the medics that I've asked to not waste their ubers because I can take the gun out without it. Ask my teammates who have watched me do it, and then LEARNED TO DO IT THEMSELVES. Adaptation is the key to being a great player, and whether it's 2fort or mesa, it doesn't make a difference.

TL;DR: The wrangler is balanced, and if you're having issues with it, you need to learn to deal with it. I promise you they aren't invulnerable, nor are they overpowered. They're hard to use and make the engineer incredibly vulnerable.

Bigger wall of text hits lava for 10,000 damage. But is stunned during the attack due to his name being in it. But was revived when he read it and agree's.

 

[=[Ga]= AutoDMC]

...The engineer's new weapons are entirely balanced as far as I can see, and I think, unlike auto, that shield makes it balanced. if it weren't for the shield, nobody would use it in the long run, because it's just too easy to kill.

To clarify, I think 60% damage reduction is too much, and will be nerfed. However, as I said above, the shield is a REQUIREMENT due to the fact that a wrangling engineer cannot use his wrench. I'd like to see what 25% or 33% does.

 

[Dreadmaker]

To clarify, I think 60% damage reduction is too much, and will be nerfed. However, as I said above, the shield is a REQUIREMENT due to the fact that a wrangling engineer cannot use his wrench. I'd like to see what 25% or 33% does.

I disagree pretty strongly with this; I'd rather it stay at 66% and we wait and see what it does after the initial onslaught of engineers after the update. To be honest, I believe that the wrangler is going to end up like the DH; powerful, but rare. I think the only reason we're seeing so much use at the moment is because everyone JUST got it and want to experiment. I think that 66% isn't too much at all, and I think it'll be proven once the class numbers go back to their usual proportions.

 

[Wiggles]

Really depends on how the wrangler is used. Sounds like dread maker has only encountered the engineer riding atop the sentry who use it ever single second of gameplay. in his adventures in black mesa I agree with him that its not overpowered but it is in no way an acquired taste like the DH. Like everyone has said though go sniper or use the sewers to lob nades up into the battlements.

 

[Dreadmaker]

Really depends on how the wrangler is used. Sounds like dread maker has only encountered the engineer riding atop the sentry who use it ever single second of gameplay. in his adventures in black mesa I agree with him that its not overpowered but it is in no way an acquired taste like the DH. Like everyone has said though go sniper or use the sewers to lob nades up into the battlements.

This is false. I've encountered the type you've mentioned, certainly, but I've also encountered those who hide behind it, and those who run around it to avoid fire. Even better, I've encountered those engie pairs, one healing and one wrangling. They're still easy to kill if you know how to deal with it. I've also met smart ones who know when to wrangle and when not to, and they do indeed tend to be more difficult, but not insurmountable.

My experience is also not limited to mesa. I have played and still play on basically every map we run with the exception of 2fort. I've not only used the wrangler extensively, but I've killed them too. I'd say my experience with them is just about as extensive as it could be with not even a week being past.

I'm not saying these things to blow my own horn; I'm saying them to tell you that I've got a variety of experience, and from what I've seen, they're easy in basically every circumstance, assuming you treat it as a big threat, and you plan on how to deal with it.

I stand by my statements that I do believe it'll fade into the 'rarely used weapon section' along with the DH, though. like I said, the only reason we're seeing so much use is because it's 'shiny' at the moment, and everyone wants a taste of it. That will go away soon, and I bet you that while a number of engies might carry it around, not many will actually use it that often.

 

[Purple.Huskies]

I feel it is not a good time to evaluate the new engineer items. Wrangler, for example, is very effective when another engineer is helping the wrangler sg engineer. Plus, there is an achievement to help the wrangler-ed sg. I would give another week or two before to evaluate the new engineer update items.

I have been experimenting with wrangler for a day or two now, and I can definitely say there are many shortcomings that you and your team use to your advantage. I'd recommend you try Wrangler yourself to see how it works and what its strength/weakness.

 

[Xerticle]

My point was that on 2fort IR it is ridiculous because with many engineers its almost impossible to take down the battery of sentries because they are all backing each other up.

Edit: I think there should be a damage reduction at longer ranges. Like how the soldier and heavy are.