TF2 may include weapon customization in future update!
- Thread starter WaterSnake
- Start date
To quote Natalie Imbruglia, I'm Torn.
The ability to mod our own weapons, assigning stats RPG style, entices me. Will my pistol offer fire resistance? Will my rockets cause bleeding on enemies at a certain radiance?
But.
I'm feeling old. Sometimes the idea of an eGO vanilla server seems....nice. No more pyros with airblast. No more scouts who don't understand that the FAN sucks. No more demos with incredible overpowered scullcutters.
Oh well, if they do release the new ability, I think I'll start by combining Natasha with a sentry. Maybe slowing down ubers will make it harder to take them down?
The ability to mod our own weapons, assigning stats RPG style, entices me. Will my pistol offer fire resistance? Will my rockets cause bleeding on enemies at a certain radiance?
But.
I'm feeling old. Sometimes the idea of an eGO vanilla server seems....nice. No more pyros with airblast. No more scouts who don't understand that the FAN sucks. No more demos with incredible overpowered scullcutters.
Oh well, if they do release the new ability, I think I'll start by combining Natasha with a sentry. Maybe slowing down ubers will make it harder to take them down?
Just add a nuke option to the servers and get it over with.
well if they did do it I'm sure they'd make it like a "5 points into a weapon max" and to get points you'd have to craft stuff for "upgradable parts"
then they'd have the negative effects that give points back, but not enough to make worthy trades for balance issues. (eg. dread's rocket launcher: 50% clip size would only give 2 points back instead of 5. not worth it unless you already have a special strategy worked out for it) Also I'm sure they'd implement a "class limit" on all weapons. so your rockets CAN'T bleed or burn people... ok well maybe burn.
I think if they did it like this, where you have to craft other weapons to upgrade, with large limitations and little point return on negative effects, this could be balanced. COULD be.
other possibility i had in mind is you have ONE point, which is say 5% for most things... not much. and this balances out with negative effects that give a lot of points. so in the end your weapon has basically equal pros and cons but suits your personal play style more.
anyways, if I had my way?
rocket launcher.
25% smaller splash radius.
no random criticals.
25% larger clip size (5 rockets)
10% more damage
slowdown on hit. (natascha rocket launcher FTW. I wonder if that would affect air strafing? if it didnt this weapon would be perfect for airshots
)
^oh and that would definitely be overpowered lol.
then they'd have the negative effects that give points back, but not enough to make worthy trades for balance issues. (eg. dread's rocket launcher: 50% clip size would only give 2 points back instead of 5. not worth it unless you already have a special strategy worked out for it) Also I'm sure they'd implement a "class limit" on all weapons. so your rockets CAN'T bleed or burn people... ok well maybe burn.
I think if they did it like this, where you have to craft other weapons to upgrade, with large limitations and little point return on negative effects, this could be balanced. COULD be.
other possibility i had in mind is you have ONE point, which is say 5% for most things... not much. and this balances out with negative effects that give a lot of points. so in the end your weapon has basically equal pros and cons but suits your personal play style more.
anyways, if I had my way?
rocket launcher.
25% smaller splash radius.
no random criticals.
25% larger clip size (5 rockets)
10% more damage
slowdown on hit. (natascha rocket launcher FTW. I wonder if that would affect air strafing? if it didnt this weapon would be perfect for airshots
)^oh and that would definitely be overpowered lol.
according to linked thread robin just shot this down
hooray!!!
According to linked thread Robin just shot this down
It's true. He said that they considered it but scrapped it, and they forgot to delete the files.
i think it goes against a lot of what valve was focusing on when making tf2.
when making tf2 they put a lot of focus on class silhouettes and making classes and there purpose easily identifiable which i really liked since if i saw a class i new right away how to deal with it.
this is already getting watered down with the current updates (best example would be the demo knight) now when playing solly when i see a demo or know one is around how i have to deal with it really changes since the normal demo dies from 2 rockets and fight withs traps or at mid range, but the demo knight messes this up since he is almost not affected by rockets and moves fast and fights close up.
when making tf2 they put a lot of focus on class silhouettes and making classes and there purpose easily identifiable which i really liked since if i saw a class i new right away how to deal with it.
this is already getting watered down with the current updates (best example would be the demo knight) now when playing solly when i see a demo or know one is around how i have to deal with it really changes since the normal demo dies from 2 rockets and fight withs traps or at mid range, but the demo knight messes this up since he is almost not affected by rockets and moves fast and fights close up.
![=[Ga]= AutoDMC](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/fced200a52f3857b950e13e7f0b5329b?s=96){kind=avatar}
So, in other words, what you're recommending is that Valve do exactly what they're already doing; add sidegrade/upgrade weapons which are then playtested, tweaked, put into the world, then tweaked again to not unbalance gameplay?
I don't complain about hats or weapon options. Those are completely awesome and cool. and not too RPGish. But allowing people to infinitely tweak their weapons WILL break the game, because, as you say, in every game there are those who obsess over combining all the little game breaking bits into an unplayable whole.
Like the guy I played Magic the Gathering with this weekend who built his deck in such a way that every time any of my creatures attacked any of his, he got to add 10 allies to the field, combined with a card with REQUIRED me to attack with all creatures who were able, combined with a card that allowed him to dictate my turn (I choose to NOT untap my lands, I choose to NOT draw a card...)... all of these earning him health points per turn, defended by an array of indestructible creatures. By the time he finally bled the game dry, he had 87 health points (starting at an initial 20), and over 70 creatures on the field.
Same thing would happen in TF2. The guy would have a pistol that contains one shot in the clip but gives him defense against fire and jarate and saws, a "upgraded" Gunboats that give him +50% speed with -25% health, and a minigun with -50% spinup and +25% speed when spinning. Or whatever. Any combination system just BEGS for people to abuse them. And in TF2, you'd have the one guy (you) who figures out the formula, and 1000 people (me) who would ruthlessly duplicate it until everyone gives up and goes and plays Counterstrike for the "balanced" gameplay.
I approve of new weapons. I approve of a vast arsenal of weapons. I'd like to see 2, 3, even 4 alternates for class weapons. I'd like to see more weapons that are genuine side-replacements instead of side-grades. (Napalm shells for shotgun instead of flamethrower? Nailgun that repairs buildings at range?). But with the bonus that each addition can be ruthlessly playtested, and then force-tweaked against everyone when you discover that the backbiter (flamethrower with spy knife attached) is overpowered. Again, with a point upgrades system, when Joe Gamebreaker figures out the supercombo... what can you do? Ban that combo? Reduce points? The QQ will be even thicker than the backburner-HP-removal.
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I agree with most of what you said there, but other games (notably rpgs) pull it off to a certain extent. I agree that I'd be happy as a clam if every class had 5 different choices for all of their slots; that would be phenomenal. However, while I agree that a point system is TOO free, perhaps something like 'add-ons' would be more appropriate.
For instance: Have an 'Add on' called 'laser sight'. It gives -x% bullet spread, but +y% firing interval, and can only be attached to non-automatic weapons. Or, a 'heat sync' that increases firing interval by x% but decreases ammo capacity by y%.
These could be found, just like weapons, and because some of them (like the laser sight there) would have weapon restrictions in place, they could playtest them all they like before release.
I like, and heavily support the idea behind customization to fit your play style, and while the points system wouldn't work, admittedly, having trade-offs that are pretested and balanced would.
In this way, for instance, engies who don't use the pistol very often, but really hate the wrangler, could add some functionality to the pistol by, perhaps, increasing its damage output for reduced clip size, in a way that was pre-balanced by valve. See where I'm going? I'd say something like 'weapon accessories' would be the best way to describe it. You could go even further than limiting what each can attach to, and simply make unique ones for each weapon, to make it even more balanced. It would allow some much wanted player-side customization to fit a given play style, and I think that would be a neat experiment.
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So I'm guessing I won't be able to combine Jarate and Sanvich?
I have never felt so disappointed from Valve
I have never felt so disappointed from Valve
I completely agree, seriously. I want to see a Thompson for the Soldier. I would use my secondary more if I could get some precision and speed, and it would fit in better with the way I play Soldier. I would love to have a "health injector" for the Medic, where I could rush into battle and slam 200HP into somebody in one hit, even if I then had to recharge before I could fire again. What would be awesome for the Scout? Firecrackers + Slingshot. Does explosive damage if it its, and if it misses it "twitches" the camera of enemies toward where it pops, for distraction. Nailgun for Engineer which does repairs at range, with a hit against damage against flesh.
I love the Contribute site. I'd like to see more crazy out-of-the-box weapons. If I had my druthers, the TF2 team would put out some prototyping tools, where you could write a quick script with weapon ideas to test locally. I'd be honest... I couldn't make myself dedicate a month to 3D model editing to drop into contribute and hope somebody uses... but maybe see nothing happen, or something lame happen to it.
I kinda want to go with the "add on" idea... but I'd rather have the weapons have a completely different silhouette. I don't like that Natasha and Sasha look exactly alike and you don't know what you're into until you hear the sound. This is why I like "separate weapons" idea. First person to quote this sentence who is not Dreadmaker gets 2500 Casino Cash. But I'd be willing to try out an addon idea... but then again, I'm not a beta player, as much as this annoys me.
See, I get what you're talking about. I get the whole 'silhouette' thing, and I know it's really important to the game. It's what makes it fundamentally different from CS:S (other than the silly)... you can't really tell the difference between a Deagle and a glock at long range, but you can sure has hell tell the difference between a huntsman and a rifle.
However, I think the idea of addons would be a 'cheap' way of accomplishing what you're looking for. Nothing game changing, of course; I know you're looking for more weapons like jarate or the sandvich (or movable buildings) that completely change the face of the game. I certainly wouldn't mind them either; gives us brainy types something to play with on the intellectual level. However, that takes a lot of work on the part of valve.
Look at the pain train. That's a pretty mild weapon. an effect that's only useful on certain maps for 10% more damage from bullet based weapons. Why couldn't that be something that attaches to another weapon? Saves about 8000 polygons in the game (reducing player-side memory usage) and you could switch it around just as effectively.
I don't really know what item could give you those effects, from a 'making sense' point of view (I wouldn't have called it a board with a nail through it, but here we are), but it wouldn't kill them to include a viewmodel with that as well. A laser sight, as I mentioned in my previous post, wouldn't be hard to make a model for; it could be small and low-detail, and just stick on the side of the weapons or whatever; they're work out were the 'addon' slot would be on the weapon.
But here's my core issue. I like what you're saying about new weapons... already talked about that. My only issue is things like the pain train. that whole weapons just reeks of 'meh'. Nothing groundbreaking about it, nothing particularly provocative. It's boring. Theoretically speaking, it's interesting to talk about, but in practice, if I'm looking for a way to change up my gameplay experience, I'm not going to pick that. I'll pick something like the eyelander, or even the skullcutter if I'm looking for variety because they're fundamentally different from the bottle.
What I DON'T want is a bunch of 'meh' weapons. Weapons should be distinct and interesting, and as far as I'm concerned, when talking about a given slot of any class, you should never get to say "well let's get x out of the way right now; it's lame, and isn't worth talking about." New weapons, to me, mean new, interesting functionality that make the game different, and offer REAL choice when it comes to the player. My suggestion is that we take all those 'meh' weapons, and turn them into options that AREN'T weapons. hence, addons.
Think of it this way: New weapons should be game changing. addons are there for the 'min-maxers' of the TF2 world, who want to tweak their weapons to fit their precise playstyle with existing weapons. they aren't meant to change the game; They're meant to customize it, and fit the individual player just a little bit better.
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AutoDMC VS Dreadmaker
Who can use the most paragraphs in a post!
Fight fight fight!
Who can use the most paragraphs in a post!
Fight fight fight!
I promise that you don't want to see that. I promise with all of my heart. I'm not claiming I would win; I'm claiming that many lives would be lost.
thank you kindly... unless someone else besides myself is reading all of these interesting walls of text. :biggrin:
but on topic I totally find the idea of addons intriguing and very tantalizing. Knowing Valve, if they went with this kind of idea they would find a way to make every "accessory" have a distint model so that when they are added to weapons it is still fairly easy to tell what they're using, both as a weapon and as an addition to that weapon.
a laser sight addition could increase accuracy/decrease bullet spread but come at a cost of slower firing rate or slightly less damage (something along those lines) as well as a model that includes a laser extending a few feet in front of you. maybe even if you couldn't see it others could, making them able to see the laser even when they can't see you because you're around a corner. Also because of the nature of the laser it can be seen even through the cloak of a spy, making it a risky add-on for the sniper-hunting ambassador wielding spy.
with a bit of play-testing as we all know Valve would do, additions such as this could become a balanced part of the Team Fortress 2 arsenal, including obvious enough models that it doesn't take long to adapt to the changes these would bring, and soon the predictability of what to expect from any class with any weapon and with any add-on would become second nature to those of us who care enough about such things.
IF valve were to go for a customizable weapon system, this is probably how they'd do it. Also, to decrease the adaptation time they would probably release the additions in small packs with other stuff, only 2 or 3 at a time.
P.S. Idea:
napalm bullets for shotgun: one of the canisters on the pyros' sash with a belt/duct tape holding it around the shotgun. the orange canister and maybe silver duct tape makes it easy to tell that it isn't a normal shotgun.
~Pros: Ignites enemies. Ignition last for 1-2 seconds for each pellet. (so shotgun sniping with this wouldn't be overpowered) At close range this could mean 8-10 seconds of flame, point blank could mean even more, making it a possibly better way to finish off quickly retreating foes.
~Cons: less damage. I'm talking about a LOT less damage. like 1/3-1/4 of the normal shotgun damage. reason? this isn't just a pyro upgrade. any shotgun could use it, maybe even the scatter gun could. the ability to burn your enemies after you're dead/retreating is valuable enough to be a trade for the normal shotgun, even if it does minimal damage without the flame.
since that idea took so much text ill just save others for later
don't want this post to rival the Great Wall of China, although it looks like it's already getting there...
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