possible demoman overpowered?

L

Librinox

Poster
i started getting annoyed with demomen seeming to kill me in one shot, so i tested something out for stats agenst a heavy (sence it has the most hp) this is what i came up with:

pipebomb gernade:
direct hits, about 80-115?
crit, i only got 2 crit nades but it pretty much gives u insta-kill on heavy, first gernade- 300 damage, second gernade, 293 (i believe)

sticky gernade:
1 sticky, 90-140?
3 stickies, enough to kill a heavy
8 stickies (untested) maybe 800?
crit sticky=direct hit crit pipe


can u see where im going with this? a sticky gernade does more then the pipebombs, and all classes with less then 200 hp die from 1 hit (direct hits pipes and stickies) the bottle doesnt do enough damage when whole but when broken, does about 50-70? crit, about 200 damage.


has it always been like this or am i going crazy? (note, i only did close range sticky and direct pipes, so i can be wrong)
i only looked at all this stuff to see how much damage the demo was really doing, that and the only thing that really kills me are heavy weapon classes (demo,solly,lvl 3 sentry engies,heavies, and the ocasional sniper)

all damage numbers with a "?" next to it means im not totaly sure on it lol (i think this is the LONGEST post ive ever made)
if anyone has anything to add to my demoman damage test (or a link to a real one) plz do lol
 
No, he's not OP.

Of course he has his strength in setting up traps and blowing stuff up, however he is very vulnerable up close.

A good demo man be fantastic and carry his team.
 
All of this information is on tf2 wiki, and a lot of what you have here is wrong. Lemme give up some hard stats and some misconceptions:

GL: Direct hit: 81-111, crits: 280-300. After bounce: 22-64, crit: 190 (if right on top of it)

SL: Directly underneath: 103-171. Crit: 353.

Powerful? Damned right it is. trade off: no close range stuff.


A misconception: bottles do no more damage broken than unbroken, and it has the same damage as all of the other basic melee weapons.


Also: stickies only do that damage if you're right on top of them; generally, being around doors and what have you, it's rare that a player will be in the direct blasting radius, and will only take (significantly less) splash damage.

Now, here's the thing to consider: there's a massive difference between a good demo and a crappy demo in terms of damage potential. For every pipe that drops instead of hitting someone directly, you lose half of the potential damage... that's a big deal. I can 2 shot many of the low health classes if I'm good, but if I'm not, I use my full clip and am very vulnerable.

Positioning is also huge for the demo. The whole idea is to keep at a medium range; long is too far, and close means you're probably going to die or take splash damage from your own weaponry. Bad news either way. Scouts can easily kill them, pyros can easily kill them, and heavies, assuming they're close enough, can very easily kill them.


If you know how to position as a demo, and you know how to aim, you are certainly a force to be reckoned with. However, as a bit of a rebuttal: why are we talking about the demo when the heavy does 540 DPS without crits at close range, and 1080 DPS when he crits? That's enough to kill another heavy 3 times over in less than a second. I don't mind going further on this discussion, but that's a primer.


TL;DR: They're very strong, but only when used by someone competent... just like every other class.
 
i guess thats why i titled the thread "possible demoman overpowered" lol....the possible thing works for this right? :p
but i did go back and look at how much they hurt themselfs if a pipebomb blew up in thier face, if they have eyelander it doesnt matter too much sence its better then the bottle, but they do 74 damage to themselfs with a pipebomb at point blank, so they can survive a scout, engie,sniper,and spy (unless deadringer :p) if they are point blank, medic, its a 50-50 lol, but solder,pyro, or another demoman is a.... u got like a 10% survival rate with using pipebombs at point blank, heavy....my question is why are you point blank with a heavy? lol XD (mk im done, thats all my complaining about demomen)
 
Have you tried taking down a wrangler SG lately?

Wrangler engi is OP now. Forget the demo.

/Old news
 
As stated by that thread that K^^ posted, the demoman is OP on unbalanced maps. But if I were to make a map extremely favoring snipers and all you played on was that map, then you would call snipers OP. So while yes, I think demoman is a tad OP at times, its usually because of the map.

Oh, and I'm kinda skipping around my main point there. Mesa is extremely biased towards demomen, so if thats where you're getting your feelings from, thats why. There are so many long corridors for them to charge down, tiny blind corners for them to sticky, and small choke points that can be used to just lob explosives into.

Oh, and what mrcool said too :p

EDIT: And @Dread, while the heavy does have such a high DPS, its very easy to escape from him in most situations, if you get at medium/long range you can often easily take him out. The thing with the demo that makes people feel he is OP is that more often then not they are rage-ing because the Demo was a DemoKnight, and closed the distance before they could react and took off their head. Or they died from a sticky trap. Especially those people who get grudges, so they keep going back to try to kill the demo and get killed by the same sticky trap 4 times in a row :p
 
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Maybe on 32 Insta-Respawn where you just hold M1 down a hallway.

Everywhere else it's way harder to hit anyone, let alone close up targets. He takes a lot of skill to use.
 
Kevimaster said:
EDIT: And @Dread, while the heavy does have such a high DPS, its very easy to escape from him in most situations, if you get at medium/long range you can often easily take him out. The thing with the demo that makes people feel he is OP is that more often then not they are rage-ing because the Demo was a DemoKnight, and closed the distance before they could react and took off their head. Or they died from a sticky trap. Especially those people who get grudges, so they keep going back to try to kill the demo and get killed by the same sticky trap 4 times in a row :p
Click to expand...


Yeah, I know Kevi. The only reason I brought that up is because the demo isn't overpowered, and niether is the heavy. I get why people rage about the demo, but trust me, I've gotten PLENTY of rage when I play heavy, too. I was just bringing up that while yes, demos can put down big numbers, they aren't the only show in town.

Also, Mr. Cool: try shooting the engie. Honest to god, my experience with the wrangler has been awesome (when I'm attacking it, that is)... it helps to have an uber, but it doesn't really need one. I've taken out wranglers as a sniper, a heavy, and most certainly as a demo. 9/10 engies don't know how to use it well, and they pay for it.
 
mrcool said:
Have you tried taking down a wrangler SG lately?

Wrangler engi is OP now. Forget the demo.

/Old news
Click to expand...

It is and it isnt, depending on your position. In other instances the wrangler just makes it a lot easier to stab and sap the sentry. Ive seen so many engies die cuz of the wrangler and their sentry goes limp and lets any class destroy it easily and Ive seen a ton of engies with perfect positioning stay in 1 spot for a very very long time racking up the kills easy.
 
The Wrangler is mostly overpowered when instant-respawn is on. Otherwise, it's rather easy to handle.
 
The demo is not op, he's a mid range baby :D

Of a scout gets me on the battlements of turbine, il just pipe him. This brings back to what kevi said, maps make him OP. If I were on something like thundermountain, my scout will tear apart some good demos.

Also, the way a lot of people play it, bait and bomb *stares straight at PepperRabit ;) *, is Really easy to deal with, just jump out and back, and rush him, he can't do much.

Anyways he's not OP, just built for a combat which most classes arnt used to dealing with.

BTW if a demo can't direct hit you will 1/4 pipes, he's not that great a demo.
 
I came here to say this:

Dreadmaker said:
All of this information is on tf2 wiki...
Click to expand...

And this...

TL;DR: They're very strong, but only when used by someone competent... just like every other class.
Click to expand...

Save the OP threads for people with little to no experience with the game. In truth, it's just as Dreadmaker said: Power is in the player, not the class. Case in point: two scouts on defense in Egypt today were just ROLLLLLLING my team, hard. Why is that? 'cause Scouts are OP? No, because these guys were amazing at exploiting scout's mobility and hit and run tactics. Just simply great - albeit, I admit, very very very frustrating for us - play.
 
Advice for the demoman taking out wrangler sgs:

Many times the engineer is going to run away, leaving the shield active for a few seconds, after that the shield is gone and the sentry is destroyed much easier, another possiblity is that the engineer picks up the sg and starts to run, it is also a lot easier to kill the engineer than the sg.

If the engineer remains with his wrangler, kill the engineer, takes 1- 2 pipes perhaps, wait for the shields to go down and detonate the stickies,

And sometimes there is no good option or tactical and you just got to nuke everything in that area ;)

Demomans are a skill-based class, time to start thinking as one

besides.... it is a team effort, how many times do you see snipers kill wrangler engineers spies backstabbing wrangler engineers.... then there wont be any shields either, it is team based games, start living up to that ;)
 
SquidwardTentacles said:
I would also like to point out that 3 stickies aren't enough to take down a heavy
Click to expand...

That's not actually true. stickies that are directly underneath someone do 101-171 damage; taking the upper number to be more correct, 3 in the general vicinity of a heavy should be enough to kill him, although not reliably. I've done it before, and I can say that it's enough (and of course, with a crit you only need 1 if you're lucky) but reliably, 4 should do it.
 
People who say wrangler is OP are people who get frustrated too easily, are unwilling to switch to a class to easily take it out (sniper, spy, soldier, demo, or others depending on sentry placement), or those who simply lack the little bit of skill and planning required to do so, and thus instead choose to complain instead. Saying that in one very restricted, very occasional scenario something is powerful isn't the same as OP. That's called exploiting your strengths. When a deadringer spy does really well in an area with lots of metal and hidey spots, is it because DR is OP? Nope, it's because the spy knows what he's doing and exploiting his strengths.

Another way to put it: I never, ever play sniper. On Egypt, Wrangler sentries are popular on the last cap of the first stage. Never have I once not been able to headshot the poor engi and then snipe his gun from out of range after the shield has gone down. He can't see everything all at once, he can't protect himself or his gun well. Use that to your advantage, that's your strength in this situation...come at him from unexpected angles and take him out and enjoy that 3 seconds of downtime on his sentry.
 
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Pistol
- Only does a decent amount of damage if a lot of shots are hit.

vs

Wrangler

- 300% increased health for the SG.
- Give's the SG the ability to shoot at infinite range with no damage fall off.
- Give's the SG better prioritizing.
- Rocket jumping with the SG.

Straight upgrade goes against what unlocks should be.

Plus even though you kill the engy the shield still remains, so say it takes 1 rocket to kill the engy, it takes 3 rockets to kill a sg unshielded. It will take 4+ rockets to kill a shielded SG forcing you to reload and back off because then the sg will have a chance to kill you. That's assuming that you kill the engy with 1 rocket.
 
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