The big problem with RP

jeremy_duck

The long winded post guy
Manager
You know what time it is,

It's time for one of my big, long winded posts hope yall enjoy me sitting down for 3 hours to write a post and then you demolish it by reading it in 15 mins.

so last night when I was on stream we had a long ass conversation about roleplay, the quality of roleplay in the server, the stifling of RP from crims and the terrible one way street mentality that everyone has (cops/crims/civilians), I don't want anyone to think there that I'm going hard here on crims. Everyone, myself included is apart of the problem.

(here's the conversation starting on stream, it goes on for two hours www.twitch.tv/videos/798703127?t=00h13m03s )

So lets clear some things up if some how you don't know who I am or where my bias is in the server (unlikely but new players exist) I've been playing the FiveM server since December 2017, I been a cop since 3/25/2018, there has been 1-3 days in between that time and now where I wasn't a cop due to the chief duck situation, but from there to now its been 962 days and counting being employed with the respective police department (LSSD, LSCPD, LSPD) so it should be clear that I play cop, and I'm most likely bias toward cop.

I don't just play cop though, I've been playing crim for a good while now maybe 7 months since I started smuggling weapons and drugs into the city for a certain group of completely legal civilians ;) however, the way I play crim is completely different from how I see other people play crim, my character has never been arrested, never been a suspect in any crime and never really done big big crimes when it comes to what happens in the server on a day to day whether that be attempted murder of a leo or civilian, or flight from law enforcement, bank robbing etc, my way of doing crime is the (police are unaware it even exists) type of crime, so there's no reason to attempt to destroy evidence, or remove blood with bleach etc, this is one of the bigger reasons of the post but the post at large is about all of our RP, and attempting to remove the one way street my way or the highway type of mentality.

Problem #1;
Police take revenge on criminals who make them mad. by wasting the crims time and taking a longer time to book them, I've seen in the past where criminals have been metagamed by police where police would search the players inventory (before they were alerted to you searching their inventory) to see if you had drugs on you to say "do i smell anything" etc, this was awhile ago btw. Police will stack charges on people for having a "bad rp scene or toxic rp scene" and you will see charges stacked up and fines stacked up, police have all the power and if the police officer is corrupt they can straight up arrest you and send you to jail without you ever getting access to a lawyer, on that front most times (not to put anything on the doj) but most times you wont even have access to a lawyer, and just end up going to jail for what ever anyway. people some times get arrested for no reason other than wasting the cops time, so they just get jailed for something that they wouldn't get jailed for normally, I.e oh you insulted me, ima bring you to jail for obstruction of justice.

police will actively get into accidents and continue (im guility as much as the next cop) i've seen it happen, and i've done it, I've seen cops flip there car and continue, then right after complain about a civilian doing the same thing, there was a time in the past that police would get downed at a bank robbery and then get someone else to revive them with the f6 menu then rejoin the scene (there was punishment for this happening and new rules).

there's so much more I'm missing, but I don't see the problem because I am apart of the problem.


Problem #2;
Criminals stifle role play for cops, (ex; Jeremy duck was shot by police but wasn't downed, Jeremy duck fled the scene being chased by cops, Jeremy duck's friend Jeremy **** came back to the scene where Jeremy duck was shot and removed the evidence by dosing the evidence in bleach or gasoline or removing a bullet casing.) so what's wrong with that? you can do that IRL and I'm sure its happened and will happen again irl, this is stifling investigation RP for cops by committing the "perfect crime" and the only thing that achieves is making everyone upset that the RP is garbage, and its pushing people away from the server, making excuses like "Police should've been guarding the evidence, police are in the wrong" is missing the problem that they are causing.

lets use a real example, I've been (and still am) investigating the shooting at garage D that took place 11/07/2020 I made it clear via OOC that I wanted all the information about the scene sent to my discord dm's so then I can verify if I walked over evidence and then I would add it to my report, I made sure to look around areas where I think there would be evidence before even looking in my discord dm's because that imo would be metagaming in some way, so I did that, on stream, for 3 hours. Then after my investigation was complete I went and looked in my dm's and read them aloud to the stream, here's some things that those people said.
  • "Agera belongs to subject. Shootout was caused by cop chasing subject. Shooters were dressed the same as the ones at the power plant and both bank robberies"
(subject was shot and killed on scene, failed to mention regarding where blood was dropped until prompted, subject failed to mention regarding if they were wearing gloves and where any shell-casings were until prompted)
  • "You find bullet casings from an ak 47 shot from the second level from the parking garage" (referring to a car in the next bit) "vin is scratched off and the person who was shot was wearing a mask which covered his whole face and gloves so there's no way of tracing him" "No prints, the person that stole it was wearing gloves and X person wears gloves at all times"
(if you are shot you bleed regardless of what you are wearing)

  • "all i really know is that theres a bunch of 5.556 casing at garage d and 50 cal and a few pistol maybe some blood but not 100% sure"
(person died on scene, failed to mention where they bled until prompted)

  • "Lots of 5.56 ammo and a couple 30-round mags on the ramp between level 1 and 2" (they are referring to garage d floors) "like 50 casings, I had gloves on.
-
  • "I did thermite and jumped the wall out the back and took a boat" (we then had a conversation about witnesses[locals] seeing them pass this location and that location on the street, I denied to do this due to fairness for all involved, however I did accept the following due to it possibly being a irl police report if what happened in this next thing were to happen irl. "The boat I drove away in was abandoned at the boat garage in town and noticed by a local it was reported to the police it was a pear pineapple colour, it had four sets of wet pants and shirts all black all matching, there wasn't anything stripped off the boat so it did have plate and vins if the boat has one, registration comes back to subject."
-
  • "in this spot" (picture of a location) "two people were shot with a heavy sniper, one of these being me. My person at the time was wearing a large vest and the bullet entered but didn't exit, all blood was kind of soaked up by the large coat."
(Stifling police RP, the heavy sniper is modeled after the Barret m107, it is classed in the wiki as a Anti materiel rifle, chambered in 50.cal, the only thing that will stop it in most cases of warfare is vehicle armor, to my personal knowledge there is no body armor that can stop the Barret m107. subjects blood would be on scene)

I've attempted to keep the last few things as anonymous as possible the goal isn't to "dunk" on these players but more to show you, the reader, that this problem is a problem and its a big one, these bullet points aren't made to call anyone out or get anyone in trouble, I am apart of the problem as much as anyone else. The thing here is that players don't really want to give cops every bit of information because maybe they feel like cops will metagame the information, and not only that but how many people would actively incriminate there characters when its the difference between getting caught and not getting caught, criminals for good reason already hate going to jail, and some may feel like the punishments are to much, and some cops think the punishments aren't enough because criminals keep going around and shooting cops all the time (what else is there to do when you have everything?)

Committing the "Perfect crime";
if you commit a crime, evidence should be included, if you shoot someone, there should be a shell-casing, civilians should be able to pick up the shell casing but then if they do that then someone had to of heard a gunshot around the area where it happened call it a "Local Report; heard a gunshot around this area" (we have this currently but you criminals could give cops more than just the 911 call of the shot, add some information, maybe someone has a vehicle that left the area quickly, throw them a bone), if you are wearing gloves, then there should be another way that cops can investigate to lead to you being a suspect in the case, do something to make the RP more enjoyable for cops, and in turn for yourself because you are getting enjoyment from doing the rp, then giving the cops enjoyment from investigating an rp that actually has evidence.

If you were shot on scene, and bled on scene, there should be a way to clean the blood up, but you would need an item and it would put you in a cancelable animation that lasts 5 minutes. and until that animation has been completed the blood will remain, but if you are the one who put yourself in that situation, then you should deal with the consequences, if you want to commit the "Perfect crime" there are more ways to do that than getting directly involved yourself, imo there shouldn't be a way to remove ALL evidence because that is unfair, in some cases unrealistic and it doesn't provide a fun fair environment for all parties involved.

if you want to commit the perfect crime be a little more discrete and not use the obvious things that will easily incriminate yourself, a few examples of what would get yourself arrested in the real world (Ex. using your own firearm, using your own vehicle, doing things without a mask on, posting incriminating things over social media, telling a group of people that you don't know that you were involved in a massive shooting and you like to kill cops) this you would think is obvious, but the majority of these examples happen in the server without punishment, you will see people saying shit like, cleaning laundry over twitter, or **** 12, i kill cops etc, just yesterday I had a dude who was involved in that shooting involving 6 dead cops literally say he was in a group of people the day before last, i was on my civ but still he doesn't know whos a undercover cop and whos not.


My way or the highway & the one way street mentality;
this happens a lot in all aspects of role play in the server. (Ex; its either you RP the evidence I dropped, or you don't) (Ex; cops are the problem) (Ex; crims are the problem) this happens so often, its one or the other sides fault, its everyone's fault, its mine, its yours, its everyone's. Stop saying "crims are toxic and their rp is garbage" stop saying "cops are toxic and their rp is garbage" all you are doing is feeding into it and making the problem worse, not better. If and when you have a problem with a certain way someone role played this scene or that scene or the way they handled it here's a list of things that you can do about it other than complaining about it.

if its about police you can;
  • Report said law enforcement officer / deputy to there complaint form found here
  • if its regarding breaking server rules you can make a contact leadership on the player
  • if its regarding something else that you don't think police will handle (illegal things done by police) then you can go to the DOJ and start a case against them with a lawyer.
  • Do something to change it (make a forum post like I'm doing right here)
if its about a civilian you can;
  • if its regarding in character illegal stuffs you can report them to the police.
  • if its regarding breaking server rules you can make a contact leadership on the player
  • if its regarding something else you can contact the DOJ and sue them
  • Do something to change it (make a forum post like I'm doing right here)
if its about something in general I would recommend bringing it to a CL to make your concerns known, or making a well thought out post about what people can do differently (don't just shit on people in a forum post)

talking about either side being @$!%$ helps no one

Thanks for reading
Please discuss this respectfully in the comments.
 

Ped

Poster
=(eGO)=
I agree with EVERY single word in this thread.

Criminals and Cops are both falling into all of this and its wrong, as someone who played crim for a good 6 months and cop for 3/4, our effort into our RP as a collective is declining and I am glad to see someone recognising it and speaking on it, especially a member of LE.

With this I suggest that it is made mandatory for criminals to give evidence especially when asked to, otherwise it is to be considered FAILRP, but at the same time, for new players or any player in general I also feel like the consequences shouldn't be W/K/B for this and should be a lot less. But I truly have no idea how this could be enforced :/
 
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flack3y

I made one post
=(e)=
  • "You find bullet casings from an ak 47 shot from the second level from the parking garage" (referring to a car in the next bit) "vin is scratched off and the person who was shot was wearing a mask which covered his whole face and gloves so there's no way of tracing him" "No prints, the person that stole it was wearing gloves and X person wears gloves at all times"
(if you are shot you bleed regardless of what you are wearing)
This is what I wrote and I just thought id reply and say the part that goes "and the person who was shot was wearing a mask which covered his whole face and gloves so there's no way of tracing him" was meant to say the person who shot not was shot sorry. I left the scene unscathed and thought I should mention that and correct my grammatical error.
 

flack3y

I made one post
=(e)=
(This is from a crim perspective btw)Also I would like to add what should we leave you at the scene if we are wearing gloves because it gets annoying when cops ask OOC for hair follicles, saliva? clothing strands and other things like skin cells or nail clippings or when your in a chase they say the saw the plate but it was blurry so you need to tell them etc. It gets annoying in that sense because they're doing everything and sometimes un realistically to catch you because all they want is to catch you and squeeze as much time and money out of you for just shooting some warning shots.
 

jeremy_duck

The long winded post guy
Manager
(This is from a crim perspective btw)Also I would like to add what should we leave you at the scene if we are wearing gloves because it gets annoying when cops ask OOC for hair follicles, saliva? clothing strands and other things like skin cells or nail clippings or when your in a chase they say the saw the plate but it was blurry so you need to tell them etc. It gets annoying in that sense because they're doing everything and sometimes un realistically to catch you because all they want is to catch you and squeeze as much time and money out of you for just shooting some warning shots.

a few ideas for you, leaving things like, "Local report; Local jimmy tim saw a person with a gunshot wound get out of his car and run north toward x location" you can do stuff like that to lead to further evidence gathering and investigation from police, if you have time, you could do the same but also leave notepads for evidence they may find, "you see mud on the tires" leading an investigation to somewhere there's mud, you could leave prints or dna or blood to get police on your trail and then your playing a game of not getting caught and getting a warrant, and police searching for you (Which the last time i did it it was fun.) think outside the box, but don't make it so you are god and will never get caught.
 

waff

im eating hold on
=(eGO)=
So, I am responding to this with both the crim side and the cop side; First, on the Crim side, I understand that you guys don't want to get caught. I wouldn't either. But something like *Local saw blah blah blah* that would provide the Cops Roleplay. Now for the Cop side. I know some of you charge people for the max or the whole damn book. In some cases, that is toxic especially, when the crims give you great Roleplay. That is just my thought on the whole thing. Both sides can benefit from the Roleplay, but people just need to think things through before responding to the OOC questions.
 
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OmgWtfNamesTaken

Famous
=(eGO)=
When someone is a known criminal, they should generally lay low instead of standing out in public areas waiting for the police to question them. Hiding is an integral part of being a criminal especially a high tier criminal. The less people know of your existence as a whole the better off you are.

Leaving evidence at a crime and getting caught are separate things. The police can know it's me who shot someone and robbed a bank. Will they find me? Sure if I am simply cruising around the city with my known associate as a passenger in their car. If I am laying low, hanging at a friends house waiting for the heat to die down than the chances someone catches me are low. If there's a warrant for my arrest... I borrow someone's car that isn't registered to me and drive around in that. (you can share your keys during the session without giving someone your car)

Thinking outside the box is how you avoid capture and create good RP.

As for the police...
When criminals are roleplaying it is important to know that they are playing a character and that sometimes the character is mad. Anyone who arrested me on my characters knows that I will be insulting etc. (IC) about the ordeal. If you are a rookie, I will call you the Sr. officer and poke fun at the person training you but this remains IC. OOC I am probably sitting here laughing my ass off because I am having fun and generally keep it pretty light hearted. I have had fines and time thrown at me which is fine. I DID THE CRIME I DO THE TIME. The only thing that makes me somewhat upset is when I am waiting to be booked and the officers are watching youtube videos while talking IC or something similar just to add time to the sentence. If people aren't RPing with you as a cop, book them immediately and throw every charge you can at them. If they are trying to play around with you and are doing so IC while not being a complete dick book quickly and get them processed maybe drop a couple smaller charges or reduce the fine.


At the end of the day, everyone should be having fun but it IS a RP server and undesirable outcomes are definitely something that happens. It is again, part of the story of the city. Actions have consequences.
 

Marcoboy24

Poster of Posts
=(eG)=
As you know @jeremy_duck i was a criminal. And I completely agree on the points you made, never should one party blame the other without looking at it's own mistakes. However in the defence of SOME criminals, alot of metagaming does indeed happen. Keep in mind this is very hard to prove. Whether it be using the ooc same, ( down arrow when it showed the names) or simply information they have from a different character. These criminals dont give alot of information just because it isnt always used right.

To add on to this, sometimes as a criminal it feels like everything is for the police. If they ask a question they want a proper response, but then when not received they immediatly become alot more toxic and less focused on having fun. If someone gets shot, the police expects blood. But what if a criminal does clean it? My point is, sometimes the criminals give incorrect or not fun to RP answers just because there is no way for them to actually fysically do those things. They cannot pick up bullet casings, clean up blood, remove gunpowder from the ground. Hence they do it in their answers to the questions given.

On my second point i want to put some extra note on what you said about having everything. As a criminal you can get high up, get money, get weapons. But what do you spend it on? Some of those people will end up joining and just want to mess around. Usually resulting in shoot police officers. This is a big problem in my opinion but i do not blame these people. Sometimes the only RP that is available is with the police which leads to a negative scenario for the police as they just end up getting gunned down.

As a third note, I personally think ( THIS IS AN OPINION) that the police is given an unfair advantage with their weaponry and vehicles. Criminals will be more toxic just because they got so much more to lose. Any criminal not inside a whitelisted organisation has to put in so much more hours to achieve the same as the police get with 1 simple command. This makes criminals more toxic to start with, as they will more likely do anything to get out of the hands of police along with their illegal items.

And as a final point, alot of times previous expierences with the police will make criminals put in less effort. Sometimes criminals get pulled over and metagamed upon, so next time they wont stop and run ( or shoot).
Maybe they got blasted when coming out a bank, so next time they will bring the heavy equipment. And everytime such a bad scenario happens, they keep this in mind. So sometimes, both partys have to relax, if a police officer doesnt tryhard on a traffic stop, neither will the criminal.

PS: i might have worded my self wrong a couple of times but hopefully my message comes across
 

jeremy_duck

The long winded post guy
Manager
As you know @jeremy_duck i was a criminal. And I completely agree on the points you made, never should one party blame the other without looking at it's own mistakes. However in the defence of SOME criminals, alot of metagaming does indeed happen. Keep in mind this is very hard to prove. Whether it be using the ooc same, ( down arrow when it showed the names) or simply information they have from a different character. These criminals dont give alot of information just because it isnt always used right.

To add on to this, sometimes as a criminal it feels like everything is for the police. If they ask a question they want a proper response, but then when not received they immediatly become alot more toxic and less focused on having fun. If someone gets shot, the police expects blood. But what if a criminal does clean it? My point is, sometimes the criminals give incorrect or not fun to RP answers just because there is no way for them to actually fysically do those things. They cannot pick up bullet casings, clean up blood, remove gunpowder from the ground. Hence they do it in their answers to the questions given.

On my second point i want to put some extra note on what you said about having everything. As a criminal you can get high up, get money, get weapons. But what do you spend it on? Some of those people will end up joining and just want to mess around. Usually resulting in shoot police officers. This is a big problem in my opinion but i do not blame these people. Sometimes the only RP that is available is with the police which leads to a negative scenario for the police as they just end up getting gunned down.

As a third note, I personally think ( THIS IS AN OPINION) that the police is given an unfair advantage with their weaponry and vehicles. Criminals will be more toxic just because they got so much more to lose. Any criminal not inside a whitelisted organisation has to put in so much more hours to achieve the same as the police get with 1 simple command. This makes criminals more toxic to start with, as they will more likely do anything to get out of the hands of police along with their illegal items.

And as a final point, alot of times previous expierences with the police will make criminals put in less effort. Sometimes criminals get pulled over and metagamed upon, so next time they wont stop and run ( or shoot).
Maybe they got blasted when coming out a bank, so next time they will bring the heavy equipment. And everytime such a bad scenario happens, they keep this in mind. So sometimes, both partys have to relax, if a police officer doesnt tryhard on a traffic stop, neither will the criminal.

PS: i might have worded my self wrong a couple of times but hopefully my message comes across

I apologize that I did not reply sooner, this is very well put and well said.

You are one of the players who focuses more on criminal sided rp rather than police, which gives you a better perspective on the criminal side of rp than myself, it is very much appreciated and thank you for even responding, I know where my bias is and that's toward police, its almost been 3 years being on the police side of RP so obviously id be more focused and experienced on the police side of things.

I don't disagree, Metagaming from cops happens, I don't know how often but I know it happens and the only thing that you can do about it is report it and then the leadership team will handle it and swiftly punish those who think that they can get away with metagaming in any aspects.

I understand the feeling of "theres nothing to do as a criminal" however I feel like we (as criminals) need to think more outside the box than regular day to day criminal things, get out of the normal and move to something specific, something fun and something that provides rp not only for yourself, but for others too, we are a RP server we aren't here to piss each other off, we are here to have fun.

as for goals for criminals I agree that at the moment there isn't a ton of things to do, but we as a LE team are hard at work to fix this issue so don't think we are just neglecting criminals, half of the LE team main criminals, panda - inkery - confission - omgnamestaken, but we also have people who main cop ripply - rdk - myself - oblixion - at one point d3fault :(. and jordys just a mechanic but idk hes prob a massive criminal lol. but it doesn't mean we don't play crim either, my criminal does a lot of things within the mafia gang thing, oblixion and rdk both have criminals that they go on from time to time aswell.

on your third point our experiences in the server shape our view and perspective on what actually happens in the server, these perspectives are neither right nor wrong. Here's my view and perspective (yours is just as right and wrong as mine we are both equally right and wrong)

For someone who mains police 90% of the time it feels like criminals have all the power and they have the advantage, let me explain from my flawed pov; Criminals have no sop, if hostile rp has started they can shoot you whenever they want, even if you are unarmed, police cannot (unless they wanna break the law) criminals can use any weapon at any time, police cannot unless a certain requirement has been met. you can buy a vehicle for under 50k that can top out at 255mph, some of the vapid cars that are around 85k can top out at 270mph, no vehicle in our fleet can match that, our speed unit does 240-260, the rest of our vehicles don't pass 160, there is no set requirement for how many civilians can be on a scene, for cops there is unless its an officer involved shooting.

the list goes on but my point is this, this argument I just made is extremely flawed because I as much as you are missing the point, the point is to have fun, and to have a good rp scene, we cant do that if a police officer metagames you via ooc information or if a criminal has no evidence that is dropped, the only thing that achieves is making everyone mad, and not having a good rp scene, Both sides of the coin are wrong, no one side is better than the other, both have there advantages, and disadvantages, what matters is the quality of role play.

I think that covered your response, enjoy my response to your response.
 

Marcoboy24

Poster of Posts
=(eG)=
@jeremy_duck I agree, the purpose for the server is for all to have fun and not one party. I have more hope than before since there indeed are more criminals on the LE team. So I have faith that the server will become better but until then, I think the current state is to toxic to play on, and on the criminal side toxicity is almost encouraged. As new players will meet these toxic people and become just like them. If the LE team makes the right decisions this can definitly improve and i believe that this is the right team to do it with.
PS: im not saying other LE's did a bad job, theres just some more diversity on the LE team.
 
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