JB_Augment Angle Vectors

[Blutzer]

Playing Augment today, the topic of debate was putting a KOS marker inside angle vectors preventing the Ts from stacking near the pillar. A few admins argued that, as warden, "You cannot restrict an area inside a game" but I wasnt able to find this rule on the official ruleset. I agree, it wouldnt be fair if, for instance, you had the T's play a climb game but restricted a step of climb. But with respect to Augment, we all know how necessary this is.

Is this against any rules as it sits today? If so, should we add a map specific rule for this?

 

[Crazy Apple]

As far as I know, this is legal.

 

[darkfry]

@Blutzer I'll do my best to break it down for you.

Firstly, I will start by saying that the rulebook is intentionally vague to allow admins to utilize admin discretion with more ease and not be prevented from dealing with certain situations or have to deal with extra complaints over some weird technicality in the rules. Many players will try to argue with admin decisions, and the more detailed the rules are the more ways people will find to argue.

For this situation in particular, I took a screenshot of the section of the rules and highlighted what I feel covers why wardens shouldn't place KOS markers inside the game, and keep in mind that the rulebook works in conjunction with admin discretion.

• Games must give all prisoners a chance to fairly participate and compete. - I included this rule because I would argue that placing a KOS marker and denying Ts access to a play area of a map game is not very fair at all. Essentially, all it's doing is making it easier for the CTs to kill the losers while at the same time making the map game more difficult for the Ts. Not only that, but it's not necessary because all the warden needs to do is specify that stacking with other players (heads are inside of each other) in the game is KOS, and there is no reason other than that I can think of that makes it necessary to place a KOS marker in the game. If CTs are unable to determine/shoot the loser's heads individually, it's honestly more of a skill issue and making the game more restricted for Ts due to their own inability to kill the losers is just screwing the Ts over to bypass their own difficulties. Not only that, but doing this also gives CTs more of a reason to be toxic and kill needlessly (Ts are trapped in the game regardless, no point in adding more variables to a situation that equates to more toxicity/needless deaths, especially on a map like augment where rounds are 10 mins long and angle vector is quite literally the first game that's played almost every time. Having been a victim to this kind of death personally, it sucked being killed for something that stupid and having to wait out an eternity long augment round, especially when it wasn't even necessary for the warden to do it in the first place.

• Games that are custom (not a map-game) must not be too difficult unless the warden can successfully demonstrate it in no more than 1 attempt. - I included this rule because the moment a warden decides to modify the play area of a map game, he is customizing it and the rules clearly define that any custom game (I know it says customs are not map games, but by adding a marker and restricting the play area of the game, the warden has customized the map game) which makes is subjective to the enforcement of this rule by technicalities. For this reason, even though the rules might not always clearly define the specifics of 1 of 1000s of different situations that can arise in JB, I highly suggest avoiding any kind of alterations to how a map game is supposed to work and be played, because admins could technically enforce this rule and make warden demonstrate a playthrough of the game with the restrictions he has set on it. IMO it would be wayyyyy easier to just make stacking in the game KOS so you can still kill the losers with ease and not have to risk demonstrating/getting Ts needlessly killed, especially since CTs talk over warden all the time and people usually get killed because of not hearing that this marker was placed/KOS.

All in all, I disagree that markers should ever be placed in a game that interferes with how it is played especially when the only point is to make CT lives a little bit easier while simultaneously making the game more difficult for Ts, and gives certain players yet another reason to be toxic and kill needlessly. Some players are new and might still be a bit confused with how orders work and may have had 0 intentions to rebel and just want to play the game, so imagine how they would feel if they got shot over something like this. Furthermore, it's just as easy, if not easier to just make stacking in the game KOS. Idk why people all of a sudden started thinking it's okay to alter map games with a specific design which is likely the way it is for a reason, but just because some people may not have taken action in the past against it, or that it's not explicitly defined in the rules, does not mean that it's okay to do. I can vouch through personal experience that doing this does and will likely continue to get players killed needlessly, and wardens should try to avoid doing it. If you have any questions/comments/concerns/disagreements about my standing in regards to this post, feel free to let me know and I will hear you out and try to clear up any potential misunderstandings. Afterwards, if you still have not reached an answer that you feel satisfies this question, I will try to get a couple ATs in on the discussion to further clear it up (1 of the admins that was trying to advise against this action was an AT just fyi).

 

[MontyPilon]

Playing Augment today, the topic of debate was putting a KOS marker inside angle vectors preventing the Ts from stacking near the pillar. A few admins argued that, as warden, "You cannot restrict an area inside a game" but I wasnt able to find this rule on the official ruleset. I agree, it wouldnt be fair if, for instance, you had the T's play a climb game but restricted a step of climb. But with respect to Augment, we all know how necessary this is.

Is this against any rules as it sits today? If so, should we add a map specific rule for this?

I agree with it being necessary when you have a large amount of Ts alive playing the game as it is not always possible to have them not be stacked due to the size of the play area, plus all Ts stacking next to the pillar can create a situation where the game won't have any losers due to everybody stacking on the line and the loser not being identifiable. Yes this can still happen when placing a restricted marker but it helps mitigate that issue.

I think management could do with clearing up this query as admins are bound to have different opinions on this and admin discretion should be at least somewhat consistent in situations such as these to avoid confusion from day to day playing.

@Blutzer I'll do my best to break it down for you.

Firstly, I will start by saying that the rulebook is intentionally vague to allow admins to utilize admin discretion with more ease and not be prevented from dealing with certain situations or have to deal with extra complaints over some weird technicality in the rules. Many players will try to argue with admin decisions, and the more detailed the rules are the more ways people will find to argue.

For this situation in particular, I took a screenshot of the section of the rules and highlighted what I feel covers why wardens shouldn't place KOS markers inside the game, and keep in mind that the rulebook works in conjunction with admin discretion.

• Games must give all prisoners a chance to fairly participate and compete. - I included this rule because I would argue that placing a KOS marker and denying Ts access to a play area of a map game is not very fair at all. Essentially, all it's doing is making it easier for the CTs to kill the losers while at the same time making the map game more difficult for the Ts. Not only that, but it's not necessary because all the warden needs to do is specify that stacking with other players (heads are inside of each other) in the game is KOS, and there is no reason other than that I can think of that makes it necessary to place a KOS marker in the game. If CTs are unable to determine/shoot the loser's heads individually, it's honestly more of a skill issue and making the game more restricted for Ts due to their own inability to kill the losers is just not fair in my eyes. Not only that, but doing this also gives CTs more of a reason to be toxic and kill needlessly (Ts are trapped in the game regardless, no point in adding more variables to a situation that equates to more toxicity/needless deaths, especially on a map like augment where rounds are 10 mins long and angle vector is quite literally the first game that's played almost every time. Having been a victim to this kind of death personally, it sucked being killed for something that stupid and having to wait out an eternity long augment round, especially when it wasn't even necessary for the warden to do it in the first place.

• Games that are custom (not a map-game) must not be too difficult unless the warden can successfully demonstrate it in no more than 1 attempt. - I included this rule because the moment a warden decides to modify the play area of a map game, he is customizing it and the rules clearly define that any custom game (I know it says customs are not map games, but by adding a marker and restricting the play area of the game, the warden has customized the map game) which makes is subjective to the enforcement of this rule by technicalities. For this reason, even though the rules might not always clearly define the specifics of 1 of 1000s of different situations that can arise in JB, I highly suggest avoiding any kind of alterations to how a map game is supposed to work and be played, because admins could technically enforce this rule and make warden demonstrate a playthrough of the game with the restrictions he has set on it. IMO it would be wayyyyy easier to just make stacking in the game KOS so you can still kill the losers with ease and not have to risk demonstrating/getting Ts needlessly killed, especially since CTs talk over warden all the time and people usually get killed because of not hearing that this marker was placed/KOS.

All in all, I disagree that markers should ever be placed in a game that interferes with how it is played especially when the only point is to make CT lives a little bit easier while simultaneously making the game more difficult for Ts, and gives certain players yet another reason to be toxic and kill needlessly. Some players are new and might still be a bit confused with how orders work and may have had 0 intentions to rebel and just want to play the game, so imagine how they would feel if they got shot over something like this. Furthermore, it's just as easy, if not easier to just make stacking in the game KOS. Idk why people all of a sudden started thinking it's okay to alter map games with a specific design which is likely the way it is for a reason, but just because some people may not have taken action in the past against it, or that it's not explicitly defined in the rules, does not mean that it's okay to do. I can vouch through personal experience that doing this does and will continue to get players killed needlessly, and wardens should try to avoid doing it. If you have any questions/comments/concerns about my standing in regards to this post, feel free to let me know and I will hear you out and try to clear up any potential misunderstandings. Afterwards, if you still have not reached an answer that you feel satisfies this question, I will try to get a couple ATs in on the discussion to further clear it up (1 of the admins that was trying to advise against this action was an AT just fyi).

Your points are valid but I have to disagree with both you have made in this instance as adding a marker does not remove the fairness for the Ts due to all of them having the marker restricted. Neither is it confusing, as Ts should be listening to the warden anyway and saying 'Blue marker is restricted' is a fairly simple command and 9/10 the warden explains why the marker is being restricted.

I would also argue that placing a marker in this instance, with this type of game is not really modifying how the game is played and if anything ensures that Ts have to play the game fairly as they now cannot stack on the pillar potentially causing a 'Stale Mate' within the game making it pointless. It also helps a little identifying which T is further away, which helps prevent accidental freekills/freedamage which is rather common within Angle Vector.

Asking Ts to not be stacked in a game such as this is easier said than done because you only have a few seconds to get to the correct angle, combined with the amount of players in the game this can and has created a few situations where somebody can stack with you last second resulting in both of you being killed for being stacked and considering when the game is stopped it freezes you in place I believe this to be unfair.

Anyway just my opinion on the above and will be interested to see managements opinion on this and hopefully we can get this cleared up so we can be consistent going forward.

 

[darkfry]

Thank you for the detailed feedback about my points, I'll say right now that it seems we don't really see eye to eye on this situation so most of my responses are counter arguments to the points you made against mine (with all do respect).

I have to disagree with both points you have made in this instance as adding a marker does not remove the fairness for the Ts due to all of them having the marker restricted. Neither is it confusing, as Ts should be listening to the warden anyway and saying 'Blue marker is restricted' is a fairly simple command and 9/10 the warden explains why the marker is being restricted.

I don't see how customizing/restricting the playing area of a map game just to make kills easier for CTs is fair. You are just creating less space in the game for Ts to choose where they wana stand. You as an experienced player may not find it confusing, but what about some1 brand new who doesn't entirely understand the concept of the game yet? Doing this is just adding another unnecessary reason for Ts to be killed. Even me being a veteran player, I just flat out couldn't hear that this marker was even placed the first time I saw a warden do it because of all the talking and I just got shot with no intentions to rebel or anything just for barely standing inside of it, and was honestly kind of BS and I was pretty pissed about it, and I don't doubt that this will continue to happen to more players if we continue to allow it. I'm almost positive that this is the exact reason why it's supposed to not be allowed, and don't know why CTs still do it. Having a hard time determining winners/killing losers without free killing is not a valid answer imo, and usually only happens if they try to play the game with 30 Ts.

I would also argue that placing a marker in this instance, with this type of game is not really modifying how the game is played and if anything ensures that Ts have to play the game fairly as they now cannot stack on the pillar potentially causing a 'Stale Mate' within the game making it pointless.

I flat out disagree with this statement. Adding any kind of custom rules to a map game that interferes with the playing area is exactly how it sounds, which is customizing/interfering/disrupting the playing area (and im 95% sure that it's outright banned to interfere with map game play areas), and could warrant a demonstration by technicalities, not saying people should demand this but just my reasoning why it should be avoided all-together. Ts can just as easily stack near the marker the same way they do to the pillar (although I've never seen it be an issue where the game was played without a marker to where it was causing disruption to the round ) and making stacking within the game KOS negates the need to add the marker in the first place. I think CTs mainly do it because they wana stand in the middle with minimal chances of being bombed.

It also helps a little identifying which T is further away, which helps prevent accidental freekills/freedamage which is rather common within Angle Vector.

Maybe the CTs shouldn't play the game with 30 prisoners if they can't easily identify winners/losers instead of creating even less space for the Ts to stand without stacking, and instead should kill off some Ts with a different game first before playing this 1 to avoid this issue. Not being able to determine the loser should be a redo if anything, with reiterated instructions to not stack in the game if needed. If CTs can't aim well enough to pick off the losers without free killing they should probably not be CT.

Asking Ts to not be stacked in a game such as this is easier said than done because you only have a few seconds to get to the correct angle, combined with the amount of players in the game this can and has created a few situations where somebody can stack with you last second resulting in both of you being killed for being stacked and considering when the game is stopped it freezes you in place I believe this to be unfair.

Again, this is usually a result of the warden trying to play the game with more players than it's intended for, and the proper way to avoid situations like this is to reduce the number of Ts before playing this game instead of denying a portion of a map game to the Ts. If a T stacks with another T (stacking is heads being inside each other) then the warden has the option to either be nice and spin it again or exercise that the Ts just failed to follow the order and kill them for being stacked which is justified in this situation, and warden should always be counting down when he's gonna be freezing the Ts anyways so they should always have plenty of warning and time to make sure they aren't stacked.

@Jayy @Daddy Succ @Jacko Was wondering if any of y'all could possibly help clear up this misunderstanding about restricting the playing areas of map games. As far as I've always known this has never been allowed, for reasons I've already mentioned above. I'm also pretty sure this issue is a result of the game being played with more Ts than it was intended for, and the marker being placed denies a bombing opportunity against the CTs that like standing in the middle on an already CT sided map (which is what I believe is the main reason this marker is even placed at all), as well as removing space that the Ts should be allowed to work with inside the game.

 

[MontyPilon]

I'm at work so I can't reply to everything you've just said in detail so I will just reply to the last paragraph.

CTs standing on the pillar, if anything could be and often is considered baiting as you are likely to be bombed/sometimes even knifed if too close to the edge.

How many Ts is this game intended for since you are stating people play it with more than its intended for? Should we now add max player counts to each game? What/who would even decide this?

Also, you mention the warden should be counting down as to when the game is being stopped so Ts can avoid stacking with fellow Ts. 3...2....1.... I've now just moved to the left and stacked with you and now we are both shot dead but because I did it at the last possible second you didn't have time to move. Is this fair? Probably not. The marker gets rid of the need to tell them to unstack.

I get the point you are making, and I agree with a lot of it when it comes to most map games, but you also have to use discretion when it comes to players putting the marker down because it's something that has always been done since Augment was added to the map pool. Yes this doesn't make it right just because it's always been done but in my opinion it makes a lot of sense adding the marker to the game, not only to stop mistakes being made by CTs but to also make it fair on the Ts playing the game. Yes they might have a tiny bit of space made unavailable but the warden would have clearly explained why, if people are talking over them then that's for admins or peace command to deal with. Maybe it's something the map maker can add into the game itself, mitigating the need for a marker to be placed.

Interested to hear what other people's opinions on this may be.

 

[Daddy Succ]

@darkfry

The AT team is discussing modifying game rules in general currently. Sit tight while we figure out the best solution.

 

[Skle]

best solution: modify the game so that it isolates the prisoner that lost

@mouse pouch go

 

[Blutzer]

I would also argue that placing a marker in this instance, with this type of game is not really modifying how the game is played and if anything ensures that Ts have to play the game fairly as they now cannot stack on the pillar potentially causing a 'Stale Mate' within the game making it pointless. It also helps a little identifying which T is further away, which helps prevent accidental freekills/freedamage which is rather common within Angle Vector.

This is why we do this. It ensures the CTs can easily pick out the loser quickly and keep the game moving. I'd argue that making Ts unstack in the game would result in CTs being toxic and more needless killing than the game is intended.

 

[Blirkit]

best solution: modify the game so that it isolates the prisoner that lost

@mouse pouch go

Literally the best solution imo. Games shouldn't need to have any "KOS" markers put in them for the game to be playable and have winners and losers. This would eliminate the need for it in this game in particular.

 

[bakr]

Games that are custom (not a map-game) must not be too difficult unless the warden can successfully demonstrate it in no more than 1 attempt. - I included this rule because the moment a warden decides to modify the play area of a map game, he is customizing it and the rules clearly define that any custom game (I know it says customs are not map games, but by adding a marker and restricting the play area of the game, the warden has customized the map game) which makes is subjective to the enforcement of this rule by technicalities. For this reason, even though the rules might not always clearly define the specifics of 1 of 1000s of different situations that can arise in JB, I highly suggest avoiding any kind of alterations to how a map game is supposed to work and be played, because admins could technically enforce this rule and make warden demonstrate a playthrough of the game with the restrictions he has set on it. IMO it would be wayyyyy easier to just make stacking in the game KOS so you can still kill the losers with ease and not have to risk demonstrating/getting Ts needlessly killed, especially since CTs talk over warden all the time and people usually get killed because of not hearing that this marker was placed/KOS.

Played augment today as CT. Without the marker there it is nearly impossible to gauge who lost the round of the game or not (which resulted in a freekill from another CT). I wouldn't say restricting a marker in this scenario is making the game custom or as custom as other games that are allowed to be changed (such as no jumping on colors). I use that as an example because that is a custom change to the game that cannot be demonstrated by the warden just as in this case and increases the difficulty for the prisoner's which usually kills off many more because of the no jumping change.

The marker's purpose isn't to kill off a quantity of prisoners but rather to kill off the correct prisoners as it just becomes a guessing game when they stack directly on top of each other at the pillar. I see no reason to disallow the warden to restrict the pillar area in the game when the arena itself is big enough for there to be no issues with the marker and the t's to be spread out. Clearly, it is smart for the prisoner's to stack to survive but the marker will make it so the prisoner's can't just stack on the pillar and survive the round for a freebee essentially (if they're smart they will all stand on stop of each and next to the pillar because it is nearly impossible to kill a prisoner accurately without freekilling and then get swapped for "Freekill," "Careless CT," or "Server Disruption").

Admin discretion would say that the inclusion of the marker would be the most fair and easiest way to handle situations like these plus will remove any reports that the admins would receive (hypothetically) and less swaps would happen. Now, some CT's should get swapped for certain actions but in this case of a guessing game doesn't really seem too careless to me. Keep in mind that the CT's are trying to kill the prisoners to get to last guard. That's part of the game. Games are meant to kill off prisoners and it's nearly unfair to CT's to kill of a prisoner from a large stack because they are inches from another prisoner.

Just my opinion but adding a marker to restrict a small area of an arena doesn't seem like a custom game but rather adding a rule to an existing game that can easily be exploited (meaning stacking on the pillar so no prisoner dies).

 

[darkfry]

Played augment today as CT. Without the marker there it is nearly impossible to gauge who lost the round of the game or not (which resulted in a freekill from another CT). I wouldn't say restricting a marker in this scenario is making the game custom or as custom as other games that are allowed to be changed (such as no jumping on colors). I use that as an example because that is a custom change to the game that cannot be demonstrated by the warden just as in this case and increases the difficulty for the prisoner's which usually kills off many more because of the no jumping change.

The marker's purpose isn't to kill off a quantity of prisoners but rather to kill off the correct prisoners as it just becomes a guessing game when they stack directly on top of each other at the pillar. I see no reason to disallow the warden to restrict the pillar area in the game when the arena itself is big enough for there to be no issues with the marker and the t's to be spread out. Clearly, it is smart for the prisoner's to stack to survive but the marker will make it so the prisoner's can't just stack on the pillar and survive the round for a freebee essentially (if they're smart they will all stand on stop of each and next to the pillar because it is nearly impossible to kill a prisoner accurately without freekilling and then get swapped for "Freekill," "Careless CT," or "Server Disruption").

Admin discretion would say that the inclusion of the marker would be the most fair and easiest way to handle situations like these plus will remove any reports that the admins would receive (hypothetically) and less swaps would happen. Now, some CT's should get swapped for certain actions but in this case of a guessing game doesn't really seem too careless to me. Keep in mind that the CT's are trying to kill the prisoners to get to last guard. That's part of the game. Games are meant to kill off prisoners and it's nearly unfair to CT's to kill of a prisoner from a large stack because they are inches from another prisoner.

Just my opinion but adding a marker to restrict a small area of an arena doesn't seem like a custom game but rather adding a rule to an existing game that can easily be exploited (meaning stacking on the pillar so no prisoner dies).

I appreciate your feedback as well, management said they are revising the rules anyways so we'll just have to wait and see what they come up with.

The main argument I still have though is that why is the marker needed when the warden has the options to either KOS stacked prisoners in the game (including the stacks on the pillar). I don't see an issue killing prisoners for this, and it can be avoided entirely if this game just isn't played first with the entire stack of Ts (not sure why this game always seems to be the go-to for first game considered the difficulties that can arise from it with lots of players). I personally would try to kill off half first with either jump rope or climb considering that they are right next to this game (with about 3 other playable 1st games in close proximity), maybe even more if needed. It would only become server dis IMO if the warden continuously kept playing this game intentionally to kill stacks on the pillar many times over, but once just to prove a point that Ts can and probably will be sprayed down if they all stack should be perfectly fine (its the same thing as spraying down the rest of a stack if they did not unstack by 1 knifing distance, a similar situation would be ladder kz on alien). Once again, I think the main root of this issue is wardens trying to play the game with more prisoners than it was intended for (IMO 10-15 should be the max, picking out the loser's head should be easy in this case), and I firmly stand by my opinion that the marker being placed is an unnecessary and illusory remedy to a situation that has alternate means of being dealt with in ways that do not interfere with the games play area.

EDIT: If I may make a suggestion that would be an easy edit to the rules, or even just an addition to the FAQ, but why not just create a map-specific rule for this game that puts a cap on the maximum amount of prisoners that wardens are allowed to play this game with? (can easily be tested to find the most suitable balance that makes identifying the losers easiest). Would negate the need for a map edit, and this issue like I've stated before, only seems to arise with an excessive amount of Ts playing it. If anyone can provide a clip of this issue arising with 10-15 prisoners in the game only, I may be a bit more inclined to re-assess my view of this situation.

 

[snn]

guys its just jb

 

[darkfry]

guys its just jb

It's a discussion to work out disagreements regarding the rules of a game, and has an effect that branches out to more than just ourselves (talking about 100s of different players over a span of time), so coming to an agreement and being on the same page regarding the rules is actually pretty important to those of us that care about the well being of the server and its players. I fail to see how this type of response contributes anything meaningful.

 

[Crazy Apple]

Adding any kind of custom rules to a map game that interferes with the playing area is exactly how it sounds, which is customizing/interfering/disrupting the playing area (and im 95% sure that it's outright banned to interfere with map game play areas), and could warrant a demonstration by technicalities, not saying people should demand this but just my reasoning why it should be avoided all-together. Ts can just as easily stack near the marker the same way they do to the pillar (although I've never seen it be an issue where the game was played without a marker to where it was causing disruption to the round ) and making stacking within the game KOS negates the need to add the marker in the first place. I think CTs mainly do it because they wana stand in the middle with minimal chances of being bombed.

This statement is your core argument in my opinion. This statement is based on a falsehood that a rule exists that changes map games to custom games and that warden can't change map games.

We have one set of rules for how games are to be played:

• Games must be explained by the warden before starting.
• Games must give all prisoners a chance to fairly participate and compete.
• Games that are custom (not a map-game) must not be too difficult unless the warden can successfully demonstrate it in no more than 1 attempt.
• Games must not be played inside cells.
• Games must not delay the round, and they must be productive (there must be winners/losers).
• Games must not reward prisoners with a prize to pick more than 2 prisoners to die.
• The first game played at the start of each round must be a map game that can be stopped or recalled. This game cannot be the same game played at the start of the previous round.
• Games cannot be played twice in the same round.
  
  
  Exception: This rule does not apply if a prisoner stops the game before any prisoners die.
• Games must not kill more than 50% (ignore decimals) of the participants in a single game.

That's it. That is the core concept for how games must be played. Everything else is up to the warden. There are no restrictions anywhere in the current ruleset that restricts the warden from making a modification to the games as long as it follows the above outline. The main takeaway is "fairly participate and compete". In this situation, it does not affect that. You state it does, but I just completely disagree. It doesn't change anything. You can still get the same result just from farther away. Distance doesn't change the angle that you are on.
The game is also still a map game. Otherwise, that's like saying "I turn on hot lava", with no map hot lava function, and that changes the game, so now it's a custom or unfair, and I must demonstrate or can't play when that is something that is done all the time. Or it would be like saying restricting jumping on colors is a custom game (which the ATs just ruled that you could do that even after the game starts). It is just not a custom game. Even if so, in this situation the custom game "demonstration" clause doesn't even apply because there is nothing to demonstrate so that throws that out of the window anywho.

There is NOTHING else in the rules that would even allude to the fact that the warden cannon't change map games to his own preference, as long as it follows those rules outlined above.

tl;dr:
Placing a marker in a restricted area does not violate any of those rules. If it made it unfair for the Ts then sure but as I said above it doesn't.
It also does not make the game custom. You are still playing a map game, under map functions. There is nothing in the rules that says you have to play map games as intended. You can change them, as long as they are fair and properly explained.

 

[mouse pouch]

 

[darkfry]

This statement is your core argument in my opinion. This statement is based on a falsehood.

We have one set of rules for how games are to be played:



That's it. That is the core concept for how games must be played. Everything else is up to the warden. There are no restrictions anywhere in the current ruleset that restricts the warden from making a modification to the games as long as it follows the above outline. The main takeaway is "fairly participate and compete". In this situation, it does not affect that. You state it does, but I just completely disagree. It doesn't change anything. You can still get the same result just from farther away. Distance doesn't change the angle that you are on.
The game is also still a map game. Otherwise, that's like saying "I turn on hot lava", with no map hot lava function, and that changes the game, so now it's a custom or unfair, and I must demonstrate or can't play when that is something that is done all the time. Or it would be like saying restricting jumping on colors is a custom game (which the ATs just ruled that you could do that even after the game starts). It is just not a custom game. Even if so, in this situation the custom game "demonstration" clause doesn't even apply because there is nothing to demonstrate so that throws that out of the window anywho.

There is NOTHING else in the rules that would even allude to the fact that the warden cannon't change map games to his own preference, as long as it follows those rules outlined above.

tl;dr:
Placing a marker in a restricted area does not violate any of those rules. If it made it unfair for the Ts then sure but as I said above it doesn't.
It also does not make the game custom. You are still playing a map game, under map functions. There is nothing in the rules that says you have to play map games as intended. You can change them, as long as they are fair and properly explained.

Thanks for your input.

Considering the amount of mixed opinions of this particular argument, I will just go ahead and wait for management to decide on whether or not to allow this. I've stated my view point of the entire thing already and still have the same opinion, unless of course someone can provide a concrete example that demonstrates the differences between having the marker and not, preferably something that proves this argument to be valid. I'll do my best to do it if I ever have the opportunity. But being able to prove your case in any situation is the best way to get people on your side regarding a specific opinion you may have about something.

Some other examples you used like colors and restricting jumping, I honestly rarely see this done (maybe like 4-5 times in my 119 days of play time), and I'm willing to bet it's either because it's not really necessary, or players are wary to do things that can get Ts killed in ways that they feel might get them in trouble. Even when you tried to do this on clouds just the other day, it was almost instant that people disagreed and said you can't do it (unless it's specified at the start, but even then I feel it's better to just play it safe and not restrict jumping at all). Ik there's nothing in the rules that prevent it from being done explicitly, but that doesn't mean that it's actually needed or should be done, or can't be handled in other ways that eliminate the need to even have this kind of a discussion. Keep in mind that admin discretion also plays a role still, and if they feel it's disrupting the game then they have a right to deny its use within reason. I care about the marker because it's gotten me killed before, and I'd bet other people died because of it as well. Also, People seem to by sidestepping my point that maybe this game should just be avoided all together with a lot of players.

EDIT: If the mapping team can separate the losers automatically, then that solves this entire issue.

 

[Blutzer]

This is what we need right here! Solves the problem!