Dreadmaker's Sentry Scenario of the Week I

[Jawneh]

Covers both entrances to the intel room, but neither entrance really lets the enemy hit you by sneaking around with a right-hand shot. Lefties pose a bit of a problem, but they seem rare in my experience .

They always shoot from the same side. You can change it so that your weapon is on the left side on your screen, but you still shoot from the same spot as before.

You might get one kill with that when the person gets there the first time. Second time around, if it's a demo, they can just lay 3 stickies infront of your sentry and boom! =D

 

[DRaGZ]

Because it's a hypothetical scenario, and you aren't really supposed to know what map we're on. It's an exercise in sentry placement theory.




The first sentry should never ALWAYS be anywhere. Predictability breeds frustration, because as soon as an enemy knows how to get that gun down (and I assure you, it's not hard), you don't have a hope in hell. I don't care what map you're on, I don't care where you are or what number of sentries already exist; what makes this game fun is that there are no definite ways to win. A sentry DOES NOT need to go 'here' or 'there' specifically on any map. There are good positions and not so good positions, but there are certainly NO CORRECT positions. If the first gun should ALWAYS be built in a certain place, then it's a terrible map, and in this case, I think we can agree that the map is fine.


The answers that have come in are all quite interesting. I haven't really decided which is best yet, because I'm waiting for more entrants (hopefully enough to go to the end of the week without the thread dying). However, they are all neat, and I'm looking forward to seeing more

In 2Fort, it is actually the case that hayroom sentry is always the best first sentry because, as far as I know, it is the only map where one sentry can literally completely block off every entrance towards the intel. A Sentry in the hayroom literally covers three different ways into the intel.

And ideal setup would be one sentry in the hayroom, one on top of straight stairs, and one in the sink room. With good enough engineers, that setup is pretty much impenetrable, since when one sentry goes down there will be at least one more sentry that still covers its range.

But the hayroom is the most important room to secure. It's amazing how many games go from desperate losing scenarios to stable stalemates with just one sentry added to the hayroom.

They always shoot from the same side. You can change it so that your weapon is on the left side on your screen, but you still shoot from the same spot as before.

You might get one kill with that when the person gets there the first time. Second time around, if it's a demo, they can just lay 3 stickies infront of your sentry and boom! =D

Actually, lefties shoot projectiles from the left side of their screen.

You can test this yourself.

Change your hand orientation in options.
Go into a self-made server.
And in console type:
sv_cheats 1
thirdperson

Then shoot a rocket or grenade launcher or whatever. It'll come out of your left side.

Note, the world models do not change, only the viewmodels, which have simply been hastily flipped. So it's hard to tell is a dude is a lefty or not, even in the middle of a fight.

 

[Dreadmaker]

In 2Fort, it is actually the case that hayroom sentry is always the best first sentry because, as far as I know, it is the only map where one sentry can literally completely block off every entrance towards the intel. A Sentry in the hayroom literally covers three different ways into the intel.

And ideal setup would be one sentry in the hayroom, one on top of straight stairs, and one in the sink room. With good enough engineers, that setup is pretty much impenetrable, since when one sentry goes down there will be at least one more sentry that still covers its range.

But the hayroom is the most important room to secure. It's amazing how many games go from desperate losing scenarios to stable stalemates with just one sentry added to the hayroom.

It might be cool that it can cover all of those entrances, but it's also exceedingly weak. It can be taken out in a TON of ways with no issues, and I know that whenever I'm playing an offensive class, I look specifically for that sentry because I assume it's there. It can be creeped from the right-handed entrance to the battlements with no incident, from below with stickies on the deck, by an ubered heavy because the space is so cramped. It's vulnerable to pipes because of how enclosed it is, the engineer is always in the line of fire, no matter where he stands, and it's really predictable. Any experienced player will always know that it's there.

However, we aren't going to have this argument here; this isn't what the thread is about, nor do I want to derail it. It's about hypothetical sentry placements in the area I've provided, and I'd like it to stay that way.

 

[Purple.Huskies]

A great idea to discuss on forum.

May I suggest to use the 3D for the next contest? Z-axis position has a significant effect on sentry gun effectiveness in the game.

 

[Purple.Huskies]

Why would you do that? just go in there as spy, decloak on the other side of the dispenser, de-disguise, and let the sentry kill the engineer . Then re-disguise and sap the sentry (or go for the taunt kill on the sentry and dispenser if they are close enough together. Wow, I am evil 3

I do not think SG will shoot if the spy keeps the dispser between the gun and himself.

 

[Dreadmaker]

A great idea to discuss on forum.

May I suggest to use the 3D for the next contest? Z-axis position has a significant effect on sentry gun effectiveness in the game.

It most certainly does have a significant effect, and for the next round, I will likely put it in. However, in this particular example, there is really no z-axis to worry about, so it's moot.

It's actually part of the reason why I chose it; I'm still figuring out how to elegantly present 3D. I suppose 3 different drawings

 

[crazyrockets]

It most certainly does have a significant effect, and for the next round, I will likely put it in. However, in this particular example, there is really no z-axis to worry about, so it's moot.

It's actually part of the reason why I chose it; I'm still figuring out how to elegantly present 3D. I suppose 3 different drawings

If you have CADD software, like solidworks, you should be able to do it no problem. make sure to include a scale, so we know the range of the sentry. Then export it as a 3d pdf, and we all can open it!

I do not think SG will shoot if the spy keeps the dispser between the gun and himself.

And, purple, that is the case if you crouch. If you stand up the sentry will usually lock on and shoot, it just hits the dispenser instead of whoever is behind it. If you are on two fort with that setup at some point, i can show you!!!

 

[KhaoticOrd3r]

http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AVyvcjMtgD1DZGY3cG5iN3RfNjVqNnhkNnhjcg&hl=en

My attempt at this... Hope you enjoy...

Everyone else, next time why don't you guys volunteer some time to work with Dread on this. He may or may not have or know how to use solidworks. I know I don't know how to despite me having used solidworks in my ENGR classes... my two cents.

 

[crazyrockets]

Everyone else, next time why don't you guys volunteer some time to work with Dread on this. He may or may not have or know how to use solidworks. I know I don't know how to despite me having used solidworks in my ENGR classes... my two cents.

Good idea, although I would have to get my copy of solidworks back up and running to relearn it .
My school lets me use a license for free, but I haven't really used it for 3d work since 2007. All the stuff I've done with it was make floorplans for fun (My room is so difficult to organize, so I get CADD help )

Dreadmaker, if you have an idea of which rooms you would like to use for future things, I can probably look into doing some design for them.

Edit: I like that sentry position if I have another sentry to support it. The enemy tends to get distracted by the other one, and gets decimated when their uber expires. Solo sentry, I have seen some problems with it, although not with pyros since the nerf .

 

[Skill/CJaZ]

My choice, personally.

Covers both entrances to the intel room, but neither entrance really lets the enemy hit you by sneaking around with a right-hand shot. Lefties pose a bit of a problem, but they seem rare in my experience .

Also serves as a good choke point to hunt down anyone else with a shotgun down the two narrow hallways. Scare them away.

Stickies = win. Highest blast radius in the game.

 

[Dreadmaker]

Good idea, although I would have to get my copy of solidworks back up and running to relearn it .
My school lets me use a license for free, but I haven't really used it for 3d work since 2007. All the stuff I've done with it was make floorplans for fun (My room is so difficult to organize, so I get CADD help )

Dreadmaker, if you have an idea of which rooms you would like to use for future things, I can probably look into doing some design for them.

Yes, I would love some 3d design help. We can talk about this at some point towards the end of the week; My thought is that the contest will end friday, and I'll judge, and use the weekend to get the next one set up. We have each other on steam friends, we can get something going.

Oh, and by the way, folks:

Contest is going to end on Friday, May 14th. Get your entries in by then!

Judging will take place on the weekend.

 

[Dreadmaker]

Heads up folks, Today is the last day to enter this thing. I'll take entries up to 1:00AM EST, or when HLXstats rolls over to the next day.

 

[dy1an]

i'll add 987 cc to the award! its my favourite number

 

[Dreadmaker]

Alright, the results are in, the ballots have been counted. Before I reveal the winner, though, Let's do the honorable mentions.

In Third place: Jawneh. Generally good location, and entertaining lolcat-esque explanation.

In Second place: Crazyrockets. Excellent explanations; I would say the best of all of them. However, what kills it is the vulnerability and predictability of your first choice. A lot of people would choose to build there, and that tends to make it a less strong position. A big key to having a successful sentry in any location is the surprise factor, and it just isn't there. More importantly, however, as you said yourself, it's vulnerable from the south. The sad bit is that most guns built directly in the intel room are weak against demomen with stickies, and this one is absolutely no exception. South or west, it doesn't matter; a competent demo will have it gone before you knew what hit you. That said though, this is a very close second.

And the winner is...


Deadly Bunny. This location is excellent. You said it yourself: it covers all entrances effectively, and it certainly has the element of surprise. If you build it correctly, soldiers will have a hard time creeping it from the west entrance because the firing arc will go quite a ways up the staircase. It does have a high vulnerability to demomen, but unlike locations in the intel room itself, you are in VERY easy shotgun range of him, and can likely kill him before he kills your gun. This is different from the intel room because if you are by your gun in either case, you have to travel all the way down the hall towards the demo to get into the effective range of the shotgun, whereas in this southern position, you can hop around the corner and 2-shot him. I have personally (long ago, when I used to play 2fort a lot) used this location and gotten many, many more kills than I should have on a fairly regular basis.

As a side note, the first two places were ALMOST reversed; Deadly Bunny's dispenser location is bad, for reasons that crazyrockets mentioned. Aside from which, it reduces the gun's firing arc and overall effectiveness. a much better placement would be at the mouth of the northern hallway leading into intel (not the stairs). This placement almost lost it for you, Deadly, but after looking through the rules a bit harder, nowhere do I say to include other buildings; just a sentry. For that reason, I discounted it on a technicality: that we're only considering sentry location.


All in all, great competition; it was close. Your cash is enroute, Bunny, and I will put up another of these scenarios on, or slightly before, Monday of this week.

 

[crazyrockets]

Congrads Deadly Bunny! Just be careful of using that placement. If you are on the enemy team and I think there is an engy in my intel, I'll check to make sure it isn't you first

 

[Liliana]

Dang, an hour late! I had a good one...and a giant explanation covering almost every role that could be used against it. But what if an uber heavy-medic charged in the winner's room, or a Targe Demo appeared?

However, this thread has opened my eyes to new potential gun locations on 2Fort, like here:

 

[crazyrockets]

Dang, an hour late! I had a good one...and a giant explanation covering almost every role that could be used against it. But what if an uber heavy-medic charged in the winner's room, or a Targe Demo appeared?

However, this thread has opened my eyes to new potential gun locations on 2Fort, like here:

Exactly what this contest is designed to do! Just keep in mind how a decent player from each class will react upon facing it. In this case, pyro jump over and flame strafe to destruction. With a level 3 sentry, I would estimate 50 damage on the pyro before sentry is down. Soldiers, demos, heavies, engineers, scouts, spies, cakes... will likely take even less damage if they can get into place to shoot it before you realize it.
I would love to hear your explinations for the place though, and maybe you can show me how you think it would work sometime! It might be I'm not looking at it the same way you are.

 

[Dreadmaker]

Dang, an hour late! I had a good one...and a giant explanation covering almost every role that could be used against it. But what if an uber heavy-medic charged in the winner's room, or a Targe Demo appeared?

However, this thread has opened my eyes to new potential gun locations on 2Fort, like here:

I'm glad the thread did what it set out to do. Part of the reason I'm doing these (yes, these: don't worry about not getting in for this one, there willl be plenty more), is to get people thinking outside the box. Some people think that there are only a few places that are good in a given area, because it's all they have seen been done. When I see an area that is defensible, I try my hardest to find places that people DON'T set up sentries, and find out WHY people don't put sentries there. Often, I tend to find that there is no good reason, and due to the element of surprise, the less-used position fares much better than not, as a general rule.

I can even prove this a little bit more with the 2fort example. There was once a time that I set up a gun where you just highlighted, Ranthus, but in the southern hallway:

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f98/Dreadmaker/Scenario1_sentry.jpg


Now, I think you can agree that it seems weaker than a number of placements. It is accessible from two opposing sides, which occasionally means you'll need to get out of the way and let it fire behind you. However, that was also my very first gun (back in the day) that got more than 15 kills before it went down. I've since done better in 2fort (and MUCH better in mesa) but it stands to reason that even a weak, unexpected spot can do better than well known, better spots sometimes.

 

[Deadly Bunny]

So whats the deal with this I thought there would be more of these

 

[Dreadmaker]

PM would have been better than a necro.

Note that I've had a good deal of computer issues in the last month, and I haven't really had my mind on it for that reason. There have been a good number of threads about it too. There may well be more in time, but allow me to install team fortress first.

If you feel like it, go ahead and kill this thread admins.