Intelligent Weapon Discussion #2: Sniper's secondary

[Beta]

SMG.

Jarate? Useless. A sniper is already useless enough, why give him a jar of pee that requires him to get close to an enemy to do damage, or replace the job of a pyro and spycheck.

Razorback is just trash. An item that counters 1 class? That's a horrible counter. If a Spy sees a lone sniper with a Razorback he will just shoot him a few times with his primary. If Valve wanted the Razorback to be useful they should give it an hp bonus or another positive buff.

 

[Lava]

Why are we talking about the sniper? Sniper is for babies...

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avU5onrWfYo[/ame]

Toast

 

[=[Ga]= AutoDMC]

SENTRY GUN!

Oh, wait...

Depends on the level. I have a hard time deciding between jarate and SMG.

...

I'll take the SMG when ... I can't trust my teammates.

This is pretty close to my philosophy. On the rare occasions that my finger slips and, instead of picking Engineer as I intended, I end up as a Sniper, I have to choose between SMG and Jarate. Mainly because I burned all my Razorbacks in an attempt to get a gold wrench, but also because I, personally, haven't found it as magical as others.

Jarate is nice... if you are a team player. If I'm sniping with the sniper rifle in the crooked hallway of Turbine, or some other place that is both (1) prone to rushes by the enemy and (2) generally full of teammates, I'll fling the gold with everyone else. Short of perhaps an Ubercharge or a surprise sentry, or a really kick-butt spy, nothing breaks up and discordinates a rush like being drenched in pee.

However, as Engineer, I've come to really, really love my pistol. It's not incredibly powerful, but I get a not-insignificant portion of my kills, assists, and serious bloodletting from the pistol. The speed of fire, and accuracy when fired non-automatically is hard to beat; unless I've got a guaranteed chest shot I'll pick pistol over shotgun any day. I can land more "pellets" on a zippy scout or slinky spah with the pistol than from a shotgun cartridge.

Why am I talking about Engineer instead of Sniper? Isn't it obvious?

...

Their strengths and weaknesses, when I play them, are similar, except that the Sniper doesn't have a sentry gun. A weakness I await a fix for.

In both cases, I've got an extremely powerful main weapon which devastates the enemy... IF I hit that enemy just right. An off-center shotgun blast in video games aren't as useful as they are in the real world. In the real world you can take off an arm, or hobble the guy, or at least significantly distract him. In video games you just do less damage. Same with the sniper rifle. Slow load time means that any missed bullets are totally wasted and even hit bullets are expensive.

However, the SMG is a fully automatic pistol. You can fire single bullets with the same accuracy as the pistol. The main difference is you don't sprain your index finger. You can also direct the damage better; a flying scout can miss a large chunk of my shotty spray, but with proper lead (and a little luck) I can sink in every single bullet for full effect.

I've come to depend on my SMG and Pistol.

When I'm out with the Huntsman, things are pretty much the same. In a short map, like Turbine, I'm likely to carry Jarate, as it's highly likely I'll be near teammates AND assisting in a rush in Jarate range. On longer maps, though, I prefer my SMG. When the entire team is stretched out running to an objective, I prefer having my Fire Huntsman -> Switch SMG -> Finish off defense instead of depending on my teammates.

And that rolls back around to the quote above, which is QFT: I'm more likely to carry Jarate if I trust my teammates to assist me when I'm in trouble. In all other cases, I prefer the extra bullets of the SMG over hoping they find being splattered with liquid waste repulsive enough to go away.

 

[a pet rock]

SMG.

Jarate? Useless. A sniper is already useless enough, why give him a jar of pee that requires him to get close to an enemy to do damage, or replace the job of a pyro and spycheck.

Razorback is just trash. An item that counters 1 class? That's a horrible counter. If a Spy sees a lone sniper with a Razorback he will just shoot him a few times with his primary. If Valve wanted the Razorback to be useful they should give it an hp bonus or another positive buff.

You're assuming that the other people in the server are actually good. Finding a good spy in a pub server is harder than sniping with a shotgun. As for jarate, the SMG also requires the sniper to get close to the enemy to do damage. Why does that make the jarate bad? When a soldier runs in with kritz towards the intel on turbine, one of the best things a sniper can do is throw jarate. It at least gives his team a chance of minimizing the destruction.

 

[Dreadmaker]

Allow me to lend a little more credence to the idea of using jarate.


Those who play on mesa know me... I tend to spawn camp as a heavy. I do it all the time. But if I get hit with jarate, I retreat to let it wear off. it scares the hell out of me. While I have jarate on me, even though I'm a sasha heavy that typically has a medic, a natascha heavy can kill me without even taking a lot of damage. He doesn't even need a medic. Even though mini-crits are only 135% damage, that's a terrifying increase for the people making a push.

So, not that I favor any of these three weapons (hence the discussion) but my two cents from being an offensive class on a regular basis: jarate sucks when it's used against me. It's turned me around a good number of times. Not fun.

 

[=[Ga]= AutoDMC]

... But if I get hit with jarate, I retreat to let it wear off. it scares the hell out of me. ...

Jarate's update comic/advertisements are so spot on with the whole Jarate idea. I consider Jarate one of the main game-changer update items... alongside the Mini-Sentry (and movable buildings), Buff-Banner, and Sandvich. It doesn't just give the player playing with it something new and shiney to play with, but it actually completely changes the entire strategy/team dynamic along with it.

Jarate IS actually scary, and it really DOES show you who is the boss.

HOWEVER, your team has to be able to take advantage of it. Dreadmaker isn't scared of the Jarate, Dreadmaker is scared of the Heavy shooting boolets at him while covered in Jarate.

I point this out because it's the key to choosing between SMG and Jarate. Just tossing Jarate onto somebody doesn't scare them off. But tossing Jarate onto them just before/just after they put themselves into a dangerous situation can be a game changer.

Jarate is quite situational. With a team that refuses to use it, or on a map that doesn't allow for team-bunching in rushes, Jarate is less useful. On a sniper who plays Lone Ranger, off by himself most of the time, with the sniper rifle or huntsman, it can be a liability contra SMG. But in a team, as part of a team effort, it's LETHAL.

 

[Artinz]

You're assuming that the other people in the server are actually good. Finding a good spy in a pub server is harder than sniping with a shotgun. As for jarate, the SMG also requires the sniper to get close to the enemy to do damage. Why does that make the jarate bad? When a soldier runs in with kritz towards the intel on turbine, one of the best things a sniper can do is throw jarate. It at least gives his team a chance of minimizing the destruction.

First, there are plenty of good spies in our servers. I myself am not terrible, but I'd be a lot better if I could stairstab consistently. Anyways, the fact that Jarate has a short range makes it bad for a sniper. A sniper is best when he is undisturbed, taking pot shots at the enemy. The SMG is the best choice because the only reason for a sniper secondary is to deter, or possibly even kill an enemy that gets close to the sniper.

 

[Dreadmaker]

First, there are plenty of good spies in our servers. I myself am not terrible, but I'd be a lot better if I could stairstab consistently. Anyways, the fact that Jarate has a short range makes it bad for a sniper. A sniper is best when he is undisturbed, taking pot shots at the enemy. The SMG is the best choice because the only reason for a sniper secondary is to deter, or possibly even kill an enemy that gets close to the sniper.

Tell that to the average huntsman sniper.



That's another little bit of devil's advocacy that I'll put together right here.

Razorback isn't particularly useful for huntsmans, but jarate is; I'd say perhaps more so than the smg. Huntsmans don't just sit back and snipe at range; it's pretty hard to do. Even though it's a fast moving projectile, it isn't a bullet. Huntsman snipers are typically in the thick of the action where they'd more than likely be in range of people to throw jarate on.

/opening can of worms.

 

[Carmine]

Tell that to the average huntsman sniper.



That's another little bit of devil's advocacy that I'll put together right here.

Razorback isn't particularly useful for huntsmans, but jarate is; I'd say perhaps more so than the smg. Huntsmans don't just sit back and snipe at range; it's pretty hard to do. Even though it's a fast moving projectile, it isn't a bullet. Huntsman snipers are typically in the thick of the action where they'd more than likely be in range of people to throw jarate on.

/opening can of worms.

This is true, but even if you body shot someone with the huntsman you can quickly switch to the smg and pump a few bullets into them, almost guaranteed kill, while you will have more opportunities to use jarate I believe you will still get more kills with the smg.

 

[? Frisky Dingo ?]

Those who play on mesa know me... I tend to spawn camp as a heavy. I do it all the time. But if I get hit with jarate, I retreat to let it wear off. it scares the hell out of me. While I have jarate on me, even though I'm a sasha heavy that typically has a medic, a natascha heavy can kill me without even taking a lot of damage. He doesn't even need a medic. Even though mini-crits are only 135% damage, that's a terrifying increase for the people making a push.

This is why I love jarate. Most any spawn camper runs or dies after a jarate.

 

[Ruthless]

Smg all the way. If an enemy even gets close to me as a sniper then the smg will take them out, why throw pee on them? then i have to switch to my rifle or my kukri which will give them time enough to kill me.

SMG is boss.
D:

 

[Fragglerock]

I'm a lousy sniper, so I play "assault sniper", supporting the assault team and throwing my joyful yellow bottles at the enemy in front of the heavy so he can pew-pew harder.

 

[Skill/CJaZ]

Why are we talking about the sniper? Sniper is for babies...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avU5onrWfYo

Toast

This. Discussion ended.

 

[=[Ga]= AutoDMC]

Razorback isn't particularly useful for huntsmans, but jarate is; I'd say perhaps more so than the smg. Huntsmans don't just sit back and snipe at range; it's pretty hard to do. Even though it's a fast moving projectile, it isn't a bullet. Huntsman snipers are typically in the thick of the action where they'd more than likely be in range of people to throw jarate on.

This is true, but even if you body shot someone with the huntsman you can quickly switch to the smg and pump a few bullets into them, almost guaranteed kill, while you will have more opportunities to use jarate I believe you will still get more kills with the smg.

I'm a lousy sniper, so I play "assault sniper", supporting the assault team and throwing my joyful yellow bottles at the enemy in front of the heavy so he can pew-pew harder.

I'm a lousy sniper as well. My "record setting" sniper streak comes specifically from Toyfort, on the bed, shooting between the doors, in one long, lucky, sleep deprivation filled onslaught. However, usually when I'm sniping, I'm a mid-range sniper simply trying to harass some other snipers/enemies who are starting to annoy me.

In most cases, I prefer to have my SMG, for reasons I've stated above. Same thing as when I'm walking with my Huntsman. The huntsman is very, very good, but, especially for enemies who keep shifting ranges, trying to hit them with the arrow is a pain. So I like having my hitscan bullets.

This is for most cases. If, however, I'm sniping mid-range in a chokepoint where there's plenty of enemy, and team, traffic, it's jarate all the way. The problem is that Jarate is pretty useless UNLESS you are surrounded by nearby traffic... and if you're surrounded by nearby traffic you just might be doing it wrong.

If I'm on a team which is making tons of useful forays and rushes in groups, it's worth having the Jarate. But in most cases, I'm either ranging with the huntsman, where I need the sidearm in case I'm out of ammo or having trouble getting range on somebody, or I'm off somewhere hopefully unexpected, where I'd likewise like to have a rapid fire hand cannon.

If I'm on Turbine, in the crooked hallway... that's a situation specifically designed for Jarate. Put out fires of people running to the dispensers, have dispensers nearby to healify and reload bullets, and get the jarate smash on that rush who's about to find themselves face to face with a sentry crap storm.

Jarate is much more situational than I think people have come to realize. SMG is much more generic, and the Razorback is so painfully situational that I seriously LOL when I see a huntsman sniper on the front lines with one.

 

[Dreadmaker]

Yeah. I think he's said it there, folks. I think this thread is really just a lot of agreeing going on with different words and text walls.

Jarate is situational, razorback is more situational, and smg is an excellent sidearm.


Feel free to continue this discussion, but a new one will be up shortly.