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lol prisoner
A (civil) debate: Updates Vs. Vanilla
- Thread starter Dreadmaker
- Start date
I agree.
'nilla ... the new game is good, don't get me wrong, but I'd like a place to get away from it all.
Lets put it into perspective:
Vanilla TF2 to me is like a beer at the bar after work on a Friday.
It's not something I will always play 24/7 all the time, but I will be a regular there, ya know?
(you'll either find me on a vanilla server or 24/7 2fort instant respawn)
Lets put it into perspective:
Vanilla TF2 to me is like a beer at the bar after work on a Friday.
It's not something I will always play 24/7 all the time, but I will be a regular there, ya know?
(you'll either find me on a vanilla server or 24/7 2fort instant respawn)
Last edited:
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i agree with the people who said updates made it more interesting. new stuff makes the game just more interesting and im willing to play it more than i would without any new stuff.
the more items you have the more combinations you can try out and see which one works best for you.
the more items you have the more combinations you can try out and see which one works best for you.
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Middle.
As Typhus said, I think that some weapons are good and balanced additions to the game, but there are some weapons that make me just want to strangle the user (Natascha, Shortstop, Charge N' Targe, Lucksman). I've grown to live with those though, and still have fun playing the game.
As Typhus said, I think that some weapons are good and balanced additions to the game, but there are some weapons that make me just want to strangle the user (Natascha, Shortstop, Charge N' Targe, Lucksman). I've grown to live with those though, and still have fun playing the game.
![=[Ga]= AutoDMC](https://gravatar.com/avatar/12a9fc53f7faa5623bdd75f9aec2029ad6f6c6571bc1bd1d6ba045600ac8689d?s=96){kind=avatar}
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Zero Punctuation, on Yahzee's review of TF2:
And that's been how Online FPSs work always. If I go onto a CS:S server, I get headshotted by players who are currently playing TWO SEPARATE MAPS on two separate computers using only their mental will to control the mouse. When playing DOD or COD, I feel the same way; these are guys who have spent years honing their craft, and as a newbie (or even a not so newbie) running in, it's only by shear luck that I get any points at all.
TF2 takes this up a notch; in all other games, "classes" of characters are essentially the same but with a quirk. You have the same HP, but one guy has a rifle that does double damage but has to be manually reloaded while another has a rifle that does half damage but automatically shoots four bullets a second. Now you have TF2, and wow! Each class has different speeds, radically different weapons, completely different abilities... you CAN become an absolute master of the Huntsman, but only at the expense of the other classes.
It's what I did with the Engineer. I had well over 100 hours of Engie before I even touched another class (Medic), and remember, Engie just got an update, so that was well over 100 hours of pre-level-3-dispensers, pre-move-that-gear-up Engineer.
But at the end of the day, it's the "endless repetition" bit that ends up killing a community. Sure, you have the die-hard-I-can-snipe-you-through-walls-in-Office-with-a-pistol crowd that will keep playing, but a lot of players will instead drift off to find new exciting experiences.
So TF2 solves two problems with unlocks; first off it keeps the game fresh by constantly providing alternative paths to master. And it does it brilliantly; you don't want the Cloak and Dagger or Scottish Resistance? Mastered the regular rocket launcher already? Then there you go! Use what's good for you.
The second problem is solves is the unbalanced newbie problem. Because the classes are so well matched a newbie can come in and actually get a positive score and feel like they're providing value to the game.
...in theory. The problem is, Valve is so busy adding new stuff to the game they fail to balance it and this is where my only complaint about the unlocks come in. If I get full-health-one-shot-killed-without-crits by the Scout's new pistol one more time I'm going to go into a flying rage. Overheal used to be a luxury... it's now a necessity. TF2 "used to be" about a series of skirmishes spontaneously appearing around the map with two players duking it out to gain supremacy and therefore push the team that much more forward.
If I have any complaint about the unlocks, it's that they aren't properly balanced. And it's a symptom of the massive number of unlocks; it's nearly impossible to playtest every combination of every class and every upgrade. So I expect them to get it wrong.
...however, I fear that Valve is so busy adding stuff that instead of balancing the weapons (making weapons less powerful) they'll just instead add newer, more powerful weapons in an attempt to balance things out. THAT, if anything, is my TF2 jump the shark moment. They're not there yet, but I can see a disturbing trend that direction.
But as I keep saying on this topic, the awesome thing about TF2 is you can set up your own server with your own rules. You can have vanilla weapons, you can tune the weapons to your heart's content, you can even have giant cats appear, chargin' their lazerz and shooting people if you wish.
I would not want to go back to plain vanilla. I get tired of the mindless repetition that permeates every other Online FPS out there. I like my mini-sentries. I like my Blutsauger (it gives me a chance when I'm playing battlemedicninja). I like my Frontier Justice. I like Natascha. I even like the fish. I'd just like to see a bit more thought about how the weapons balance against each other, because the only classes that should be able to consistently one-shot you is the Sniper and Spy.
And give me an option to not receive crates. I'm sorry, Valve, I'm not going to pay for the opportunity to perhaps maybe get an item I don't already have, thank you. I might pay for a specific item I want, but that's it.
TL;DR.
The problem isn't the unlocks, it's the failure to balance the unlocks, leading to situations where classes suddenly have entirely new abilities without the subseqent loss of an ability to keep the game balanced. This is what needs to be fixed... and ironically, this won't be fixed with a vanilla server. All a vanilla server does is restore the old unbalanced status quo over the new unbalanced status quo.
And that's been how Online FPSs work always. If I go onto a CS:S server, I get headshotted by players who are currently playing TWO SEPARATE MAPS on two separate computers using only their mental will to control the mouse. When playing DOD or COD, I feel the same way; these are guys who have spent years honing their craft, and as a newbie (or even a not so newbie) running in, it's only by shear luck that I get any points at all.
TF2 takes this up a notch; in all other games, "classes" of characters are essentially the same but with a quirk. You have the same HP, but one guy has a rifle that does double damage but has to be manually reloaded while another has a rifle that does half damage but automatically shoots four bullets a second. Now you have TF2, and wow! Each class has different speeds, radically different weapons, completely different abilities... you CAN become an absolute master of the Huntsman, but only at the expense of the other classes.
It's what I did with the Engineer. I had well over 100 hours of Engie before I even touched another class (Medic), and remember, Engie just got an update, so that was well over 100 hours of pre-level-3-dispensers, pre-move-that-gear-up Engineer.
But at the end of the day, it's the "endless repetition" bit that ends up killing a community. Sure, you have the die-hard-I-can-snipe-you-through-walls-in-Office-with-a-pistol crowd that will keep playing, but a lot of players will instead drift off to find new exciting experiences.
So TF2 solves two problems with unlocks; first off it keeps the game fresh by constantly providing alternative paths to master. And it does it brilliantly; you don't want the Cloak and Dagger or Scottish Resistance? Mastered the regular rocket launcher already? Then there you go! Use what's good for you.
The second problem is solves is the unbalanced newbie problem. Because the classes are so well matched a newbie can come in and actually get a positive score and feel like they're providing value to the game.
...in theory. The problem is, Valve is so busy adding new stuff to the game they fail to balance it and this is where my only complaint about the unlocks come in. If I get full-health-one-shot-killed-without-crits by the Scout's new pistol one more time I'm going to go into a flying rage. Overheal used to be a luxury... it's now a necessity. TF2 "used to be" about a series of skirmishes spontaneously appearing around the map with two players duking it out to gain supremacy and therefore push the team that much more forward.
If I have any complaint about the unlocks, it's that they aren't properly balanced. And it's a symptom of the massive number of unlocks; it's nearly impossible to playtest every combination of every class and every upgrade. So I expect them to get it wrong.
...however, I fear that Valve is so busy adding stuff that instead of balancing the weapons (making weapons less powerful) they'll just instead add newer, more powerful weapons in an attempt to balance things out. THAT, if anything, is my TF2 jump the shark moment. They're not there yet, but I can see a disturbing trend that direction.
But as I keep saying on this topic, the awesome thing about TF2 is you can set up your own server with your own rules. You can have vanilla weapons, you can tune the weapons to your heart's content, you can even have giant cats appear, chargin' their lazerz and shooting people if you wish.
I would not want to go back to plain vanilla. I get tired of the mindless repetition that permeates every other Online FPS out there. I like my mini-sentries. I like my Blutsauger (it gives me a chance when I'm playing battlemedicninja). I like my Frontier Justice. I like Natascha. I even like the fish. I'd just like to see a bit more thought about how the weapons balance against each other, because the only classes that should be able to consistently one-shot you is the Sniper and Spy.
And give me an option to not receive crates. I'm sorry, Valve, I'm not going to pay for the opportunity to perhaps maybe get an item I don't already have, thank you. I might pay for a specific item I want, but that's it.
TL;DR.
The problem isn't the unlocks, it's the failure to balance the unlocks, leading to situations where classes suddenly have entirely new abilities without the subseqent loss of an ability to keep the game balanced. This is what needs to be fixed... and ironically, this won't be fixed with a vanilla server. All a vanilla server does is restore the old unbalanced status quo over the new unbalanced status quo.
Last edited:
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Vanilla should be its own gamemode. No special weapons or hats. Just Meat and potatoes.
I believe that when special weapons first came out, they added a nice challenge to the game. Hats never added anything to the gameplay, so those were nice too. But the polycount update has gone a litle overboard. The new weapons are nice, but they should have stopped at crafting and trading. Buying weapons just makes valve look sleazy.
I believe that when special weapons first came out, they added a nice challenge to the game. Hats never added anything to the gameplay, so those were nice too. But the polycount update has gone a litle overboard. The new weapons are nice, but they should have stopped at crafting and trading. Buying weapons just makes valve look sleazy.
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This I don't get, at all.
Game development is EXPENSIVE. Crazy expensive. Game developers (including programmers, artists, game testers, middle managers, red swingline stapler hoarders, etc) cost between 50K-250K each. A game like TF2 has multiple tens of people who all want paychecks every month. It's expensive to write a game.
And then you have TF2. What other game developers would make into DLC, TF2 gives away for free. You want a FAN or Frontier Justice? You don't have to buy "Wrath of the Lich Engineer" in order to have one. New levels, new maps, new features, all free.
Over two years ago, I paid $10 for this game, and have had 2 years of updates, maps, feature upgrades, etc, and Valve has never asked for a dime.
Now Valve has offered an alternative method to getting the items you want. You really want that FAN but don't want to achievement grind or hope that perhaps, maybe, you might possibly get one at random? Or that you'll find a scout who absolutely must have your KGB because he doesn't have one yet? Then you now have the opportunity to buy them.
But here's the key! (No pun intended.) YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUY THE ITEMS FROM THEM. Everything (as far as I know) is droppable, unlockable, craftable, and/or tradable. You don't have to spend money. They're just providing an extra service for those who "Gotta Catch 'em All" while also providing funding which can only help ensure that the game is supported by paid engineers for a greater span of time. Which is awesome.
I'll get mad at Valve when they make me buy the "Burning Teufort" pack in order to play on a level with my friends, but I can't even sneer at the current micropayments system. And I hate micropayments! But the fact remains that at no time has Valve ever required you to pay one red cent to continue playing the game you love.
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Middle, updates are cool but sometimes they are too much sometimes
I love the Tribalmans Shiv, Jarate, Razorback, Darwin's Shield, and the Huntsman.
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This right here is a good point. Perhaps, are we (as in the community, not the general version of "we" which would include myself which is inaccurate in this case) pissed off at the latest update simply because it has SO MANY new items and features all at once?
Before you answer, give it a serious thought... are your complaints really about the new items, or the fact that there's 10 of 'em to get at once?
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Only problem I have with the game is actually something I myself do, which is trade while in game which causes a lot of afk people. Other than that, I would be for an eGO vanilla server just to make everyone stop complaining and to see how empty it would get after the first couple days and laugh as everyone would come back to the regular servers. Just play the game and have fun imo.
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It's hitting a point where there's too much. I'd like to see less weapons, and more game modes, maps, and other neat non-weapon things.
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Alright, now that Auto has dropped his text wall o' doom, I feel that I can do the same.
Here's the abstract, so you can safely skip the rest of my post: I love updates. I don't care if they release a million new weapons for each class, and I don't care if they're all completely unbalanced. They change the face of the game, the cause innovation, and they change the inherent tactical principles upon which the game operates. In other words, they keep it nice and fresh.
Now, for those who want to come along for the full ride, read on:
As auto said earlier, every online FPS has ninjas. If you watch some counterstrike sniper frag videos, you won't even understand. Honestly? They scope, they shoot, someone dies. Did you see them? No. Why? Because they were behind a truck and their arm was visible through a 3 millimeter gap in one of the side view mirrors. Seriously, that's ridiculous. COD and DOD are the same way; there are people who are so ridiculously good that trying to kill them in the average way is a matter of luck if you're new to the game.
TF2 is the same way. You can be pretty great at any class, and people of any other class are going to have a hard time getting you. It doesn't actually matter what weapons the other guy has; if you can pipe him and slice his head off with an axe before he can fire said weapon, said weapon is pretty superfluous, no?
As far as I'm concerned, I don't particularly care what weapons the other guys have. Hell, I'd be happy to give the heavy a suit of armor that doubles his health and a minigun that shoots fire-breathing bees. It doesn't matter. The fun of the game for someone who has played it long enough to approach mastery of a given class is adaptation. I'd love to fight that heavy as a demoman; I'd like to see what I could do to counteract his new arsenal. I probably would die the first few times. Sure. But I'd also probably learn, and eventually adapt.
I don't play scout often, but I tend to hear the most whining about them. After all, they have 'insta-win guns'. They walk up behind you with a FAN or the shortstop and you're done, right? Well, here's the real question: If a scout came up behind you with the scatter gun and you weren't paying attention, would you fare worse than if he had a FAN? Not at all. You're done either way. Two shots of either is enough to kill most things, and realistically, you won't have the time to turn around and kill the scout before he gets the second shot off no matter WHAT weapon he has. If he's coming from the front, it doesn't matter either; He's just as easy to direct pipe as he was before.
TL;DR
The weapons are a function of their user's skill. If you sucked with a class before, the new weapons won't make you instantly awesome. You'll still lack the awareness that you did before, your reaction time will still be slower, your aim still won't be as good. The basic things aren't going to change; you still need the basic skills, after all.
Moreover, if you're great at a given class, and you get a great new weapon for that class, you're going to need to adapt to be able to use it well, and you're going to need some practice. "Instant win guns" do not exist; only people who give them that name because they have a hard time adapting to their use.
Here's the abstract, so you can safely skip the rest of my post: I love updates. I don't care if they release a million new weapons for each class, and I don't care if they're all completely unbalanced. They change the face of the game, the cause innovation, and they change the inherent tactical principles upon which the game operates. In other words, they keep it nice and fresh.
Now, for those who want to come along for the full ride, read on:
As auto said earlier, every online FPS has ninjas. If you watch some counterstrike sniper frag videos, you won't even understand. Honestly? They scope, they shoot, someone dies. Did you see them? No. Why? Because they were behind a truck and their arm was visible through a 3 millimeter gap in one of the side view mirrors. Seriously, that's ridiculous. COD and DOD are the same way; there are people who are so ridiculously good that trying to kill them in the average way is a matter of luck if you're new to the game.
TF2 is the same way. You can be pretty great at any class, and people of any other class are going to have a hard time getting you. It doesn't actually matter what weapons the other guy has; if you can pipe him and slice his head off with an axe before he can fire said weapon, said weapon is pretty superfluous, no?
As far as I'm concerned, I don't particularly care what weapons the other guys have. Hell, I'd be happy to give the heavy a suit of armor that doubles his health and a minigun that shoots fire-breathing bees. It doesn't matter. The fun of the game for someone who has played it long enough to approach mastery of a given class is adaptation. I'd love to fight that heavy as a demoman; I'd like to see what I could do to counteract his new arsenal. I probably would die the first few times. Sure. But I'd also probably learn, and eventually adapt.
I don't play scout often, but I tend to hear the most whining about them. After all, they have 'insta-win guns'. They walk up behind you with a FAN or the shortstop and you're done, right? Well, here's the real question: If a scout came up behind you with the scatter gun and you weren't paying attention, would you fare worse than if he had a FAN? Not at all. You're done either way. Two shots of either is enough to kill most things, and realistically, you won't have the time to turn around and kill the scout before he gets the second shot off no matter WHAT weapon he has. If he's coming from the front, it doesn't matter either; He's just as easy to direct pipe as he was before.
TL;DR
The weapons are a function of their user's skill. If you sucked with a class before, the new weapons won't make you instantly awesome. You'll still lack the awareness that you did before, your reaction time will still be slower, your aim still won't be as good. The basic things aren't going to change; you still need the basic skills, after all.
Moreover, if you're great at a given class, and you get a great new weapon for that class, you're going to need to adapt to be able to use it well, and you're going to need some practice. "Instant win guns" do not exist; only people who give them that name because they have a hard time adapting to their use.
