Why Sinjar/Buriz should be removed

R

Rukus.

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Look at the side-by-side comparisons of each location I have observed. In the first image I am looking straight ahead at my target, being unable to see it. However when I turn and use the corner of my screen I am able to see clearly the entire area. This imbalances the map by allowing Rocketeers to see a group advancing on a location and fire a rocket blindly into the fog, getting many kills. Buriz is plagued by the same problem.

The map is bugged.


 
The maps aren't bugged. The fog setting is the same way on all maps just a part of Insurgency.
Once you play the game long enough you find out about this issue. Try playing on some other maps and you will see it's the same on all of them! But hopefully you can recode the game and fix the issue all games have it it's called "fog of war" Insurgency just so happens to have the worst. Removing the fog will create a huge problem for mapping because the only way insurgents wouldn't be able to see the marines in Sinjar is to add more tress or vegetation . I don't see any other way of fixing that issue beside what I said above. It would be easy to take of 2 popular maps on the server but more than extremely hard to find 2 maps to replace. The firefight server is ranked #1 so no point in fixing something that's not broken!
 
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Jason said:
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Yes, but sinjar and buriz are effected by this problem into the extremes. On maps like bagdad, almaden, karam, etc it isn't as significantly noticeable because of plentiful cover and alternate routes. Both of the formentioned maps only have two routes. I was thinking making the building under the stairs lead to the tunnel system underneath Charlie, making for some interesting close quarters warfare. Alternatively you could restrict the RPG on Sinjar, but I think thats a little too rash...
 
I hate rpg either way it go so I could careless if it was removed but making that tunnel you speak of just won't work because Sinjar is a Marine push map and that tunnel will turn it into a firefight map because if Marines could take that tunnel to Charlie it would be a Marines spawn camping fest instead of Ins spawn camp fest but maybe you can remake the map with the tunnel and we test it out and see if it makes for a better Sinjar. It kinda sounds like your new to Insurgency or just haven't played enough hours yet but I might be wrong. All the maps on Insurgency are favor'ed to the Insurgents why? Well because the Insurgents are fighting on their turf and the Marines are the invader's of the Insurgents homeland. I think that's the concept on which the game was built and some people have a hard time understanding that but that's what makes the game Insurgency. It should always be harder on the Marine team because they are suppose to be the trained fighters unlike the untrained Insurgents. If you want to use team work to win join Marine team if you want to just go kill people join Ins team. No map on the game is balanced 50/50 except the 1vs1 map. To better illustrate my point you should try getting your hands on a 203 as a Insurgent or a RPG as Marine and you will see that because of how the game is designed the Marines could do a lot more damage with the RPG and so can the Insurgents with a 203 in their hand.
 
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Problem is an engine limitation with the fog. ALL source games should have this issue (though few even have the distances we have in INS). Oddly enough, you can't snipe through the fog either- you can stand perfectly still next to a landmark, I can aim straight at you (after seeing you through the fog with this "trick", and still not kill you. Same with RPG's- they and bullets travel ever so slightly past the fog, then just disappear (stand at the road at A in Sinjar, have someone else stand beyond the bridge. Aim and fire an RPG- it won't connect with the back wall, it just up and disappears. Same issue with the 203- shoot ever so slightly too high on any map, the round disappears, even if the map is large enough for it to land).
 
I get your point, but it really isnt a problem for the marines if people plays their role. Thats why you need to smoke and when you see an RPG scan the area where it came from. Grenadiers plays a big role of taking out RPG's aswell... Its just apart of the game and there is nothing to do.
 
Rukus, like people above me have said, maps aren't bugged, the rear extended view thing has been around for probably since the beginning and has never caused any problems.. meaning use it as an advantage.. ( btw you can use that for every map in the game )
 
I think its possible to edit the fog settings so it does not do that. Also if you cant shoot past the fog whats the big deal?
 
DataShark said:
I get your point, but it really isnt a problem for the marines if people plays their role. Thats why you need to smoke and when you see an RPG scan the area where it came from. Grenadiers plays a big role of taking out RPG's aswell... Its just apart of the game and there is nothing to do.
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+100 I completely forgot this part. For some strange reason people don't use their mics much on Marine team but when they do and you have at list 5 out of 16 team mates working together the Marines are unstoppable. Teamwork is a big factor in Ins use it or lose.
 
You can shoot past the fog and kill someone if you line them up right it's difficult but it's possible in regrades to RPG and 203 disappearing that's the sky box. Once it goes out of the sky box it's gone to the big man above. When you shoot it from alpha to bravo it disappears due to render triggers ( What you computer draws for you when you look in the particular direction). It's a little complicated for me to explain because I'm new to mapping so hopefully someone will elaborate on my statement to help others better understand.
 
This occurs because the draw distance is not spherical as it should be. As mentioned all source-based games suffer with this problem. Matter-a-fact the orange version of the engine has yet to fix this very problem (i.e. Resistance and Liberation.) Here's a funny post full of empty promises from the previous team lead of the current development team for INS.

http://forums.insmod.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=18807&view=findpost&p=296983

The fog in INS is a consequence of large maps and engine limitations. The reason you don't experience exactly the same issues on HL2 maps is because the view distance is blocked by buildings, props or the terrain, hence never truly seeing the limitations of the engine. When we designed INS we did it looking at pushing the boundaries of the source engine, and thinking that future versions of this same engine would provide performance updates. INS will reach a much better graphical level once the transition to the Orange Box engine is complete - and that will allow us to prevent all the reported draw distance issues and overcome all the limitations of the current engine version we're using.

Until then, there's nothing to do with the draw distance. Given the version of Source we use, there's little or nothing we can improve on that field.

The sole reason why you don't see the same effects in all INS maps is because smaller maps do not run into the same limitations. Additionally, some level designers have chosen to use the same tricks used in HL2 maps (placing buildings and scenario props blocking the view - preventing you from running into the limits of the draw distance).

Any time we try to represent a large outdoor map in this version of the engine we have the same draw distance limitations. Good luck finding other large outdoor maps in HL2-based mods. All of them will have the same issues.

Be patient. Good things will come for those who wait
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Yeah that never happened. haha

Anyway, this is an engine limitation. Unfortunately I cannot help you out other than telling you what the problem is and why it exists.
 
The reason you don't experience exactly the same issues on HL2 maps is because the view distance is blocked by buildings, props or the terrain, hence never truly seeing the limitations of the engine.
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Like I stated above about Sinjar. Just add more vegetation (more palm tress and bushes) and problem should be fixed. If you've ever played any of Hardcells custom maps you will see how he has fixed the problem on every map with detailed Vegetation. The development team could of fixed since they made the maps but that's a lost cost not even worth mentioning anymore. Almaden is a perfect example of what I quoted. It's also a huge map but since the person that made the map took time to make it; the draw distance issues aren't as big of a problem on it because of the buildings.

Side note: This feels awesome talking about Insurgency like this hopefully it will make some more people start playing it again !0!
 
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By using reference points on the map you can easily shoot past and through the fog. I believe this has been worked out now.
 
Yea once you get good at the game you find out how easy it is to basically exploit this issue. I think the best way to fix it is to remove it. Because if you can clerly see the enemy that means he can clearly see you as well so once you begin to fire upon him he just has to look in the same direction and defend him self. It's unfair to both palyers to have the fog in the game becasue it dosen't serve any real purpose and because only players who have played a great deal of hours of the game know about this little secret; it gives a massive advatage to those players vs new players.

If Sinjar didn't have the fog marines would be able to see insurgents comming accross the ridge line and Insurgents would be able to see Marines in the valley city (which is almost always totally un-used.) On several occasion I have put a the m249 on a tripod in the valley and mowed down scores of insurgents trying to make thier way to alpha useing the fog trick and vice versa as a Insurgent with the rpk on the top of the valley. It's a wierd siuation and maybe the fog can't even be removed so I'm not sure. Sinjar and Burhriz are awesome maps and I really like them. Both maps really make you feel like a ture Insurgent or a USMC so I really would hate to see them removed.
 
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