Kayle Rework Spotlight

[Carmine]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn-Y6jawdHM[/ame]

Pretty awesome, she really needed the model and kit updates.

 

[Kek15]

Looks so much better

 

[Mr.Game]

The only complaint I have is that he was 1-2 levels above everyone nearly
through the entire showcase. But I guess that's just the way to "sell" the
champion.

Other than that...
Change looks good. I wonder if Crystal Scepter will proc-slow Righteous
Fury's AOE.

 

[PhsX]

I am okay with these.

 

[Carmine]

The only complaint I have is that he was 1-2 levels above everyone nearly
through the entire showcase. But I guess that's just the way to "sell" the
champion.

Other than that...
Change looks good. I wonder if Crystal Scepter will proc-slow Righteous
Fury's AOE.

I don't think they would actively fix a battle to sell a 450 IP champion that nearly everyone owns. Phreak was just doing well as usual. Watching a spotlight where Phreak just dies a bunch of times isn't very entertaining.

 

[bleblablueble]

I feel upset having bought the battleborn skin for her months ago..now she looks better normal.

 

[JunK]

interesting

 

[Hidan]

Very sad indeed. I actually quit League of Legends after I heard they're remaking Kayle. I decided that there really is no reason left to play. She was honestly my favorite champion to play as and was 100% perfectly fine. This remake makes all Kayle players cry.

 

[Carmine]

Very sad indeed. I actually quit League of Legends after I heard they're remaking Kayle. I decided that there really is no reason left to play. She was honestly my favorite champion to play as and was 100% perfectly fine. This remake makes all Kayle players cry.

The last rework broke Kayle. No character should ever have multiplicative stat passives that powerful. It has proved incredibly problematic for Vladimir and Jax in the past as well too. The champions become nearly impossible to balance. They are amending that last mistake.

 

[Nik :D]

Well, time to see more Kayle's in matches now.

 

[bleblablueble]

The last rework broke Kayle. No character should ever have multiplicative stat passives that powerful. It has proved incredibly problematic for Vladimir and Jax in the past as well too. The champions become nearly impossible to balance. They are amending that last mistake.

You act as if Kayle was so OP.

Which she wasnt, she required farm, early game kills.

and if she didnt get those 2 things she was completely useless reguardless of her ult.

She was fine and didnt even need a change to her spells.

 

[Carmine]

You act as if Kayle was so OP.

Which she wasnt, she required farm, early game kills.

and if she didnt get those 2 things she was completely useless reguardless of her ult.

She was fine and didnt even need a change to her spells.

She was overpowered right after the rework, then they nerfed her and she became under used and underpowered. The passive is to blame. She wasn't overpowered, but the passive was toxic design that made it incredibly hard to balance her. With her new passive if she turns out a bit underpowered after the rework they can now easily make buffs to her without catapulting her to the top spot.

I saw more Mundos at Dreamhack than Kayles. There is a reason for this, and it wasn't because she was "fine".

 

[Hidan]

The last rework broke Kayle. No character should ever have multiplicative stat passives that powerful. It has proved incredibly problematic for Vladimir and Jax in the past as well too. The champions become nearly impossible to balance. They are amending that last mistake.

Jax is perfectly fine as a champion. The only thing that ever was overpowered (possibly) was him doing Q+W at level 2, and that is still arguable considering how you're putting a melee up in front of your face who you can freely harass yet decide to run away from anyway.

The only reason Vladimir really became a problem was due to the fact that he really needed no stats at all besides what his passive gave... Health and AP. Rylais Crystal Scepter was practically god mode on him. If his abilities (Q+W) hadn't healed him for so much, he wouldn't be able to late game build pure ability power and would instead have to build more defensive items.

The problem exists with most manaless champions in general. Manaless is hard to balance around because you have to have decent cooldowns at all levels in the game or else they're either crappy or amazing.

I feel as though Kayle was perfectly fine, and again, did not need a remake. However, this could just be the stubbornness from a player like me who simply decided that he doesn't enjoy watching Riot constantly break the game patch by patch. Yorick, for instance, was actually balanced at release. I posted about 3 threads on the forums during f2p week about how to build him, and how he was balanced. Of course, everybody raged at me and nobody actually tried the build except a few. This build, of course, worked for them. It wasn't as super god mode as it is back then, but in fact everyone uses it now. (Start with Meki Pendent + 2 pots,-> Tear,->Boots 1->Spirit Visage -> Manamune)
At his release everyone was dumping points into Q and then putting lesser points into W+E when his W+E is what you needed most. In addition, most people didn't understand the blocking potential of his ghouls. Any champion reliant on hitting with skill shots is officially doomed against Yorick. For instance, a hero like Mundo who generally survives fairly well in the lane and pushed people out with ghosts ended up getting massacred by me. My ghouls prevented him from both farming and hitting me, and to farm he had to get up close in which case I dropped all 3 ghouls on him and whaled on him.

 

[Carmine]

Jax is perfectly fine as a champion. The only thing that ever was overpowered (possibly) was him doing Q+W at level 2, and that is still arguable considering how you're putting a melee up in front of your face who you can freely harass yet decide to run away from anyway.

The only reason Vladimir really became a problem was due to the fact that he really needed no stats at all besides what his passive gave... Health and AP. Rylais Crystal Scepter was practically god mode on him. If his abilities (Q+W) hadn't healed him for so much, he wouldn't be able to late game build pure ability power and would instead have to build more defensive items.

The problem exists with most manaless champions in general. Manaless is hard to balance around because you have to have decent cooldowns at all levels in the game or else they're either crappy or amazing.

I feel as though Kayle was perfectly fine, and again, did not need a remake. However, this could just be the stubbornness from a player like me who simply decided that he doesn't enjoy watching Riot constantly break the game patch by patch. Yorick, for instance, was actually balanced at release. I posted about 3 threads on the forums during f2p week about how to build him, and how he was balanced. Of course, everybody raged at me and nobody actually tried the build except a few. This build, of course, worked for them. It wasn't as super god mode as it is back then, but in fact everyone uses it now. (Start with Meki Pendent + 2 pots,-> Tear,->Boots 1->Spirit Visage -> Manamune)
At his release everyone was dumping points into Q and then putting lesser points into W+E when his W+E is what you needed most. In addition, most people didn't understand the blocking potential of his ghouls. Any champion reliant on hitting with skill shots is officially doomed against Yorick. For instance, a hero like Mundo who generally survives fairly well in the lane and pushed people out with ghosts ended up getting massacred by me. My ghouls prevented him from both farming and hitting me, and to farm he had to get up close in which case I dropped all 3 ghouls on him and whaled on him.

I'm not sure you understand just why passives that give more than one free stat are so good and why they make the character so hard to balance. Kayle's passive currently can let her easily start with massive amounts of ability power and attack damage when used with the right runes, giving her a strong early game, but then scales incredibly well into late game. It is considered by many to be the most powerful passive in the game.

Jax at one point over a year ago was the most overpowered character in the game. Since then he has been constantly underpowered despite varied buffs and a rework. The Q+W early lane combo is a gimmick that still can't help him rise above his reliance on RNG and solo intensive design. His passive is part of the problem. Jax's passive allows him to build pure dps while having huge amounts of health, often reaching 4000. This interacts with Atma's Impaler late game making him very very powerful.

Vladimir is constantly stated by Riot as their most hated champion and one of their biggest mistakes. His passive makes him incredibly difficult to balance. Sustainability is more of an early-mid game problem with Vladimir, he still has to build resists if he wants to survive a teamfight, but his passive makes him scale too well with many items compared to other characters. Once again these passives are massive free gold advantages that put you way ahead of enemy characters when their passives give much smaller advantages.

There are plenty of balanced non mana using champions, off the top of my head: Garen, Akali, Renekton, Kennen, Lee Sin are all in a good place while not considered overpowered.

Yorick was most definitely underpowered when he was released, and any positive use you may have gotten out of him was instead a testament to the effects of Manamune on the game. In fact, Manamune is the main reason he is considered overpowered now. The only nerfs you will be seeing for Yorick will be in the form of mana costs and sustainability, but you will most certainly see nerfs to Manamune in the future.

 

[JunK]

Jax is perfectly fine as a champion.

no offense but i stopped reading there. lol

 

[Carmine]

Post from Morello, the lead of the design team:

One thing that's easy to do from an outside perspective on something is see everything in a nerfs/buffs or "OP/UP" standpoint, which isn't really a good, comprehensive view of changes. Let me help shed some light on what's up with Kayle, and why we made the changes we did.

Kayle's had a few core problems that would prevent effective buffing;

* Her passive especially was problematic; if we'd ever made Kayle a viable and good pick, she'd had been out of control pretty quickly. We could either do this, or continue to leave her as an uncompetitive pick.

* Kayle's core design and balance made her unable to make right without bigger changes; specifically, if she has the ability to be 100% of a carry and has support abilities, then she's OP. Conversely, if she has the ability to be 100% of a support and has significant damage, she's OP. Our core philosophy with hybridized roles now is "75%/75%" - meaning the character should never be as good as a dedicated on in a signular role, but offers additional diversity and allows teams to choose a character based on role condensation (instead of choose a carry and support, you could choose a hybrid and add a different, sixth character type).

* Her E timing had a big problem of making her unreliable. We lowered the CD to improve this, and then had to evaluate values on her abilities.

I encourage Kayle players to try her and see - I think there's a lot of (understandable) overreaction to this. Check it out and provide feedback afterwards - I'm really confident she's better than before.

 

[Jashadow]

I don't think they would actively fix a battle to sell a 450 IP champion that nearly everyone owns. Phreak was just doing well as usual. Watching a spotlight where Phreak just dies a bunch of times isn't very entertaining.

Speak for yourself. I'd find that entertaining.


Vlad has been receiving minor nerfs up until now, which I consider him to be balanced now. Jax IS balanced. Just don't feed him and you won't have any problems with him. He's supposed to be an off tank damage, and he fits that category well.

 

[Jashadow]

I'm not sure you understand just why passives that give more than one free stat are so good and why they make the character so hard to balance. Kayle's passive currently can let her easily start with massive amounts of ability power and attack damage when used with the right runes, giving her a strong early game, but then scales incredibly well into late game. It is considered by many to be the most powerful passive in the game.

If you don't have the runes, Kayle completely sucks early game. With the runes, she's able to hold her own (Barely). She can completely get run over early game, and feed if you don't know what you're doing. Like Phreak said, however, if you can hold out until late game and if you have a decent build, you can easily become overpowered. Is this change necessary? Yes, I think so. She needs better early game and not as much late.

Jax at one point over a year ago was the most overpowered character in the game. Since then he has been constantly underpowered despite varied buffs and a rework. The Q+W early lane combo is a gimmick that still can't help him rise above his reliance on RNG and solo intensive design. His passive is part of the problem. Jax's passive allows him to build pure dps while having huge amounts of health, often reaching 4000. This interacts with Atma's Impaler late game making him very very powerful.

As I said before, Jax is a tanky dps. What was OP with him a year ago is that you could stack phantom dancers and get 20% dodge per PD. So, boots + runes + 2 PD = 80% dodge. His ult gives him MR, but what if you get more? Banshee's veil and 2 items to increase your 3rd attack on your ult, and you're good. Not to mention the attack speed from the phantom dancers..
I'm not saying you're wrong with his passive, but there were many things that needed to be changed on him. He's not underpowered in my opinion; I still see Jax's that do perfectly fine.

Vladimir is constantly stated by Riot as their most hated champion and one of their biggest mistakes. His passive makes him incredibly difficult to balance. Sustainability is more of an early-mid game problem with Vladimir, he still has to build resists if he wants to survive a teamfight, but his passive makes him scale too well with many items compared to other characters. Once again these passives are massive free gold advantages that put you way ahead of enemy characters when their passives give much smaller advantages.

Vlad will keep getting nerfed until they consider him balanced. I think then, he'll be too trashy to play with.

There are plenty of balanced non mana using champions, off the top of my head: Garen, Akali, Renekton, Kennen, Lee Sin are all in a good place while not considered overpowered.

That's hilarious. If played right, Akali, Renekton, Kennen, and Lee Sin can pick up a kill easily.

Yorick was most definitely underpowered when he was released, and any positive use you may have gotten out of him was instead a testament to the effects of Manamune on the game. In fact, Manamune is the main reason he is considered overpowered now. The only nerfs you will be seeing for Yorick will be in the form of mana costs and sustainability, but you will most certainly see nerfs to Manamune in the future.

Sad to say, but you're right.

 

[Trace]

That's hilarious. If played right, Akali, Renekton, Kennen, and Lee Sin can pick up a kill easily.

Wat? ._.

 

[Jashadow]

Wat? ._.

I consider Akali to be just a bit overpowered. I guess that's what I was pointing out. Sorry, haven't slept in 2 days.