What's wrong with Jail...

[RedDragonKnight]

what are you proposing here?

Make no detours/no delays/no cheating go back to being implied or at least let a CT add in that order instead of the warden. While it is not implied, it detracts from the freedom of the warden and rewards repetitive and non creative orders. It may also have a relationship with the lack of people stepping up to be warden now-a-days, possibly due to it being overly complicated for a new warden to grasp while dishing out harsh repercussions for failing to give the order. It also prevents CTs from acting against people disobeying the order unless the T does something that marks him as wanted. The CT team should not be completely disabled because the warden left out "no detours."

 

[c-whit?]

Make no detours/no delays/no cheating go back to being implied or at least let a CT add in that order instead of the warden. While it is not implied, it detracts from the freedom of the warden and rewards repetitive and non creative orders. It may also have a relationship with the lack of people stepping up to be warden now-a-days, possibly due to it being overly complicated for a new warden to grasp while dishing out harsh repercussions for failing to give the order. It also prevents CTs from acting against people disobeying the order unless the T does something that marks him as wanted. The CT team should not be completely disabled because the warden left out "no detours."

Let us discuss this in leadership. I'll get back to you.

 

[Blaze]

I'm not leadership, but as a player, I think that would be a horrible idea. CTs should *never* be allowed to modify warden orders at any time -- that is ripe for abuse and defeats the purpose of having a warden. The warden's primary job is to give valid orders and help control the prisoner population. Allowing other CTs to change those orders in any way is bad, bad, bad.

Also, like C-WHIT said, the CTs have automatic weapons and full armor, while the Ts have only a knife (unless they rebel and get into armory or find a pistol). Do the CTs *really* need any more help to control the Ts? If so, the fault isn't within the rules on the server, but with the CTs that need to practice and get better at the game.

 

[RedDragonKnight]

I'm not leadership, but as a player, I think that would be a horrible idea. CTs should *never* be allowed to modify warden orders at any time -- that is ripe for abuse and defeats the purpose of having a warden. The warden's primary job is to give valid orders and help control the prisoner population. Allowing other CTs to change those orders in any way is bad, bad, bad.

From the jail rulebook,
Guards may issue commands to save lives, themselves, or stop a rebellion.

If the warden fails to include no detours no delays into his orders, then he is allowing a rebellion, not doing his job, and it should be within a guard's power to correct him.

Also, like C-WHIT said, the CTs have automatic weapons and full armor, while the Ts have only a knife (unless they rebel and get into armory or find a pistol). Do the CTs *really* need any more help to control the Ts?

CTs are rarely ahead on the scoreboard, with scores more often than not looking 0-13 or something similar.

 

[gimpy17]

I with RedDragonKnight on this one. And c-whit, the purpose isnt to give all the cts the power. The ts can still rebel, they can still disobey. They can do honestly whatever they want. The difference will be that they will have to be creative to find ways to rebel, for example, what RedDragonKnight said, that they find faults in the defensive lines of the cts, they sneak through the hidden corridors that the maps always have, using the planted pistols or nades. What we see nowadays is that the ts only rebel with loopholes in the orders, and so everyone has settled for a mediocre way of rebelling, and when they get killed because the ct thinks they are rebelling, the t gets all pissy because according to the perspective of the t, he wasnt rebelling.

And blaze, yes the cts have auto weapons, BUT remember they can only use them if the t is a rebel...and how could they use them if, according to the perspective of the ts, they are not rebelling when they decide to "detour" because the warden didnt say no detours?

 

[Rogue Sniper]

Back in my days we had to work as a team to rebel and escape. But now with all these fancy iPods and netbooks and electric cars, rebelling is too easy, that and guards that bait by not being on catwalks, in behind fences or just out of the way by a great distance.

 

[c-whit?]

Make no detours/no delays/no cheating go back to being implied or at least let a CT add in that order instead of the warden. While it is not implied, it detracts from the freedom of the warden and rewards repetitive and non creative orders. It may also have a relationship with the lack of people stepping up to be warden now-a-days, possibly due to it being overly complicated for a new warden to grasp while dishing out harsh repercussions for failing to give the order. It also prevents CTs from acting against people disobeying the order unless the T does something that marks him as wanted. The CT team should not be completely disabled because the warden left out "no detours."

Having "no cheating" implied won't happen. This doesn't give CT's freedom, it takes away the freedom of the T's. It makes it so that the all the T's need to do is follow the orders and die. If you so happen to be last T, great, if not, wait till the next round. There is no creativity, as you speak about. In fact, it basically makes the server, CT's vs. Bots. What's the point of that?

I also, still do not understand how taking the 2 seconds to state "no detours/no delays" hinders gameplay. It literally takes 2 seconds or less. In a server, where you spawn with guns, and the T's spawn with knives. Is it really that hard to state "no detours/no delays"?

The CT team is not completely disabled. For example, an order for T's to go to climb, means that all T's should start moving towards climb. A delay/detour would be a slight deviation, however, the overall direction of the movement of T should still be towards getting to climb. If the T runs off all the way over to race (half way across the map), is that not rebelling? I would take it as so. The T has no intention of following the order, whether or not no detour/no delaying was stated. A delay/detour is different from rebellion.

The exception here would be if there is another route to climb through race in which the Warden should specify which route the T's should go.

In this case, a delay/detour would mean that as they go to climb, they go look at a spray on the wall for a few seconds while on their way to climb.

A loophole to this for the T would be, to shift walk (delaying) while all the other T's ran to climb, when the warden never cited a method of getting there.

Maybe, we need to clarify or explain the difference between the two, however, I don't see a necessity to make it implied. CT's not specifically stating "no detours/no delays" doesn't imply that T's may run around the entire map freely, essentially a free day. I do believe that this is where most of the confusion is coming into play reading everyone's posts.

With all this stated, we are currently discussing this issue in leadership. If there are specifics you'd like us to discuss, please PM me.

 

[Tumblin]

CT's not specifically stating "no detours/no delays" doesn't imply that T's may run around the entire map freely, essentially a free day.

This is great to know.

Thanks C-WHiT!

 

[Ex]

Having "no cheating" implied won't happen. This doesn't give CT's freedom, it takes away the freedom of the T's. It makes it so that the all the T's need to do is follow the orders and die. If you so happen to be last T, great, if not, wait till the next round. There is no creativity, as you speak about. In fact, it basically makes the server, CT's vs. Bots. What's the point of that?

I also, still do not understand how taking the 2 seconds to state "no detours/no delays" hinders gameplay. It literally takes 2 seconds or less. In a server, where you spawn with guns, and the T's spawn with knives. Is it really that hard to state "no detours/no delays"?

The CT team is not completely disabled. For example, an order for T's to go to climb, means that all T's should start moving towards climb. A delay/detour would be a slight deviation, however, the overall direction of the movement of T should still be towards getting to climb. If the T runs off all the way over to race (half way across the map), is that not rebelling? I would take it as so. The T has no intention of following the order, whether or not no detour/no delaying was stated. A delay/detour is different from rebellion.

The exception here would be if there is another route to climb through race in which the Warden should specify which route the T's should go.

In this case, a delay/detour would mean that as they go to climb, they go look at a spray on the wall for a few seconds while on their way to climb.

A loophole to this for the T would be, to shift walk (delaying) while all the other T's ran to climb, when the warden never cited a method of getting there.

Maybe, we need to clarify or explain the difference between the two, however, I don't see a necessity to make it implied. CT's not specifically stating "no detours/no delays" doesn't imply that T's may run around the entire map freely, essentially a free day. I do believe that this is where most of the confusion is coming into play reading everyone's posts.

With all this stated, we are currently discussing this issue in leadership. If there are specifics you'd like us to discuss, please PM me.

Just going off what i've read here having all these things implied will make jail alot more simple and the wardens job abit easier then (going off what rdk said) maybe JUST MAYBE people might actually want to be ct and become warden and then more people can play and have fun.... When msot people are ct nowadays people just dont take warden and wait for t's to rebel and then its like a normal server fighting :/

Dont even jail much anymore only when i get credits from other servers spend them and then leave anyways so dont really bother me.... It might just bother the majority of little players u have left playing jail.

 

[gimpy17]

The CT team is not completely disabled. For example, an order for T's to go to climb, means that all T's should start moving towards climb. A delay/detour would be a slight deviation, however, the overall direction of the movement of T should still be towards getting to climb. If the T runs off all the way over to race (half way across the map), is that not rebelling? I would take it as so. The T has no intention of following the order, whether or not no detour/no delaying was stated. A delay/detour is different from rebellion.

The exception here would be if there is another route to climb through race in which the Warden should specify which route the T's should go.

In this case, a delay/detour would mean that as they go to climb, they go look at a spray on the wall for a few seconds while on their way to climb.

A loophole to this for the T would be, to shift walk (delaying) while all the other T's ran to climb, when the warden never cited a method of getting there.

Maybe, we need to clarify or explain the difference between the two, however, I don't see a necessity to make it implied. CT's not specifically stating "no detours/no delays" doesn't imply that T's may run around the entire map freely, essentially a free day. I do believe that this is where most of the confusion is coming into play reading everyone's posts.

This is the issue I think. Specifically stating what a "detour or delay" is. When I first started this thread, I believe this is what was frustrating me. I understand if the warden doesnt say "no detours nor delays" and the t decides to look at a spray on his way to climb, then that is fine. But what had frustrated me (I originally posted this because it happened to me) is when you say go to the back wall and the t runs directly at you (in the opposite direction) because you didnt say "no detours nor delays" and then gets mad because I apparently "freekilled him." I think specifically stating what a detour and delay is, making it known to the t population would help so that we dont have ts thinking they can go around the whole map if they want. I think in here lies the root of the problem. The ts just dont know....

 

[c-whit?]

Just going off what i've read here having all these things implied will make jail alot more simple and the wardens job abit easier then (going off what rdk said) maybe JUST MAYBE people might actually want to be ct and become warden and then more people can play and have fun.... When msot people are ct nowadays people just dont take warden and wait for t's to rebel and then its like a normal server fighting :/

Dont even jail much anymore only when i get credits from other servers spend them and then leave anyways so dont really bother me.... It might just bother the majority of little players u have left playing jail.

Please Refer to This:

Having "no cheating" implied won't happen. This doesn't give CT's freedom, it takes away the freedom of the T's. It makes it so that the all the T's need to do is follow the orders and die. If you so happen to be last T, great, if not, wait till the next round. There is no creativity, as you speak about. In fact, it basically makes the server, CT's vs. Bots. What's the point of that?

Of Course, it'll be easier. If all these things are implied, as a CT, all you have to do is shoot the T's and then BAM, round's over. What's the point of having a jail server? We should just make everyone join CT and have bots as T's and you can just shoot them over and over again.

The point of JAIL is not for it to be easy. It's supposed to be a mixture between good CT's, good Orders, and rebelling T's.

Now as I stated above, many confusions lie in the fact that people don't seem to understand the difference between detour/delaying and rebelling. That's soemthing that we'll have to figure out on our end.

 

[RedDragonKnight]

Having "no cheating" implied won't happen. This doesn't give CT's freedom, it takes away the freedom of the T's. It makes it so that the all the T's need to do is follow the orders and die. If you so happen to be last T, great, if not, wait till the next round. There is no creativity, as you speak about. In fact, it basically makes the server, CT's vs. Bots. What's the point of that?

How is a warden disallowing cheating on every game any different than having it as implied? It doesn't make it CTs vs Bots, and allowing cheating in a game still means the Ts have to follow the order, only allowing them the freedom to scumbag their team out of the chance at a fair game.

 

[c-whit?]

There's a huge difference. It means that the order is not just a simple "do this". It means that the warden took an extra 2 seconds to think it out. Moreover, it means that the CT actually cares about the order given. It also allows the T's to have the freedom to cheat, if not stated.

That in itself is a huge difference. And yes, it does make it CT vs Bots. Consistently taking away freedom of the T's is basically having a server that is CT vs Bots. I don't see the point of that at all.

 

[gimpy17]

There's a huge difference. It means that the order is not just a simple "do this". It means that the warden took an extra 2 seconds to think it out. Moreover, it means that the CT actually cares about the order given. It also allows the T's to have the freedom to cheat, if not stated.

That in itself is a huge difference. And yes, it does make it CT vs Bots. Consistently taking away freedom of the T's is basically having a server that is CT vs Bots. I don't see the point of that at all.

The ts still have their freedom. They can push wsda and use their mouse. Just because the warden said something doesn't mean that their keyboards break and they become bots. The way I see it, if a T is going to rebel, then he is going to rebel. It doesn't matter what the warden says, the warden could say, "All ts freeze while we shoot you...." and the ts could still rebel. The opportunity to rebel ALWAYS exists, no matter what the warden says...So no, it wouldnt be just CT versus bots... I doubt a T who is planning on rebelling thinks, "Oh no, now I cant rebel because the warden said to freeze so he can shoot us..." If the t has the predisposition to rebel, then he rebels. But we dont see that nowadays, I just see a bunch of ts (or bots you could say) follow orders like robots until the warden "slips" and then they pounce. Its boring. The ts have lost the need to find creative ways to rebel, like plan as a team ahead of time to all run together somewhere, or the t with a smoke throws it while the t with the pistol shoots the warden on the first movement command etc... because they just wait until the warden screws up. We, at least I, dont want to eliminate that. If the warden screws up, then all power to the ts. But I dont want the warden screwing up to be the ONLY reason/way the ts rebel, because it makes jail BORING. And if we eliminate ways the warden can screw up, like for example making no cheating/no detours/no delays implied, it will force the ts to think of more creative ways to rebel...

 

[RedDragonKnight]

I fail to see how cheating in an activity is "freedom" or even fun for anyone but the winners who cheated. Anyone unfamiliar with the fact that cheating is allowed by default are going to get steamrolled by cheaters if the warden fails to disallow it.

and disallowing cheating does not make it cts vs bots. not even close.

 

[Blaze]

Yes, since you are mad that the CT team/warden is bad, we should change the rules to force the Ts to be a near-perfect team in order to successfully rebel.

 

[RedDragonKnight]

Yes, since you are mad that the CT team/warden is bad, we should change the rules to force the Ts to be a near-perfect team in order to successfully rebel.

Argumentum ad hominem: an argument made personally against an opponent instead of against their argument.
This information is irrelevant and adds nothing to the discussion.

 

[Blaze]

Argumentum ad hominem: an argument made personally against an opponent instead of against their argument.
This information is irrelevant and adds nothing to the discussion.

It's not against you personally. If the CTs and warden were good, and didn't miss simple orders like that, you wouldn't be fussing about it. Therefore, my argument stands as legitimate and self-evident.

EDIT: You want a rules change to protect the CTs from being bad and/or having a bad warden, and in so doing, remove most of the little freedom and fun the Ts still get. That's asking a bit much, IMO.

 

[RedDragonKnight]

It's not against you personally. If the CTs and warden were good, and didn't miss simple orders like that, you wouldn't be fussing about it. Therefore, my argument stands as legitimate and self-evident.

This is a personal attack. You're not arguing for or against the rules, you're arguing about the reasons behind me "fussing" about this.

 

[Blaze]

Please see my edit above. I'm not making it personal. You are asking for a rule change to severely handicap the Ts to give the CTs added "insurance" against a bad team or a bad warden. That's not fair to the Ts. Also, I apologize if you think I am making it personal. This *is* about the rules and why you are asking for a change.

You are only asking for a rules change, by your own admission, because of bad wardens.