New update.

=[Ga]= AutoDMC said:
REMEMBER, VALVE! It's always OP if it's a bonus for the guy fighting against you. It's always fair play when you've got it.
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Well this is so true...y not go a step further and say its only OP when the winning team has it and its not OP when the losing team has it.
 
I'm mostly sad at this, and I play heavy mostly and have died many a time to the sandman. The scout was mostly worthless in almost any map and they gave him something good, but Valve did what I didn't expect them to and buckled under the community. Their resistance to the majority is what made them a great developer in my mind. But back goes the scout to running and dying. Twas a sad day.
 
PuddinPop said:
I'm mostly sad at this, and I play heavy mostly and have died many a time to the sandman. The scout was mostly worthless in almost any map and they gave him something good, but Valve did what I didn't expect them to and buckled under the community. Their resistance to the majority is what made them a great developer in my mind. But back goes the scout to running and dying. Twas a sad day.
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No. Now the scout is useful, but only with teamwork.
 
I thought my rocket jumping skills were just off on a couple of days. Let's see if it really was me, or if I have just lost my skills all together.

Frisky Dingo is exactly right. Only the winning team has OP weapons and hax. If the losing team had them then they wouldn't be losing. Skill you say? Lies.

~Burning Shadow

Rocket jumping is how I get around as soldier, so this is quite a relief actually.
 
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Carmine said:
You obviously do not get the point of scouts, scouts are not meant to work on a team, they are meant to encourage teamwork on the enemy's part.
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That is not true for linear maps like payload or Dustbowl. In games like those, the Scout must necessarily work with his team to accomplish goals, but in doing so he has to give up a lot of what makes him useful: unpredictable maneuverability. The maps are just too linear for Scouts to go about by themselves, because it's just asking to get themselves killed.

The Sandman allowed him to give up a little more of this maneuverability so that he can also work as a support class in the process. However, it was strong enough in its previous form to actually make him deadlier than he should be on maps where he was encouraged to go it alone, like 2Fort or Gravelpit, where routes were designed to allow classes like the Scout, Demo, Soldier, and Spy to take unpredictable paths. In these cases, the Scout needs to take advantage of his speed to take down enemies by himself, which, imo, is still the optimal way to do it.

But the Sandman made him very powerful by himself against lone enemies, to the point that he gets a guaranteed kill when he hits with the Sandman, something which I'm inclined to believe Valve was not expecting or wanting.
 
Carmine said:
You obviously do not get the point of scouts, scouts are not meant to work on a team, they are meant to encourage teamwork on the enemy's part.
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A scout should encourage team work on both sides.

ex1. A scout stuns an enemy player, somebody else takes him out easily, like a sniper.

ex2. You stun an ng from a distance allowing a soldier or heavy to take out his level 3 sentry easy because he can't repair it.

ex3. You drink the bonk drink, run by an enemy sentry, therefore distracting it drawing it's fire, and another player on your team gets the sentry, piece of cake.

ex4. You get stunned, your team should protect you.

And like DRaGZ said, this is particularly true in attack/defend maps, which I just happen to play more than anything else, so I suppose I might have a different perspective of the scout.
 
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Good riddance, I say. If you thought the sandman was balanced before the update, then your a scrub.

Outside that, it's still not fully balanced until they fix uberstunning.

(Forum ate my actual post, inb4ban)
 
FreakingHell said:
No. Now the scout is useful, but only with teamwork.
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Not sure how the Scout works as a team unit in a large group unless it is cannon fodder or just sniping from far away. If you are stunned while with a group, the group can protect you. As was said earlier, the scout and spy are supposed to be loners. Scouts by definition do not fight with a group, the main forces just behind them are supposed to pick up the fighting that the scouts report back about.
 
PuddinPop said:
Not sure how the Scout works as a team unit in a large group unless it is cannon fodder or just sniping from far away. If you are stunned while with a group, the group can protect you. As was said earlier, the scout and spy are supposed to be loners. Scouts by definition do not fight with a group, the main forces just behind them are supposed to pick up the fighting that the scouts report back about.
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The Scout is not a very good report unit, mainly due to the fact that he's so noticeable when he goes flying through a base and attracts lots of attention, meaning he's usually not able to get to the meat of places if there is proper Sentry placement. A Spy is far more useful for such things.

And I'm surprised at how many believe the Scout only works well alone. The Scout is the ultimate tool for luring enemies into ambushes (my favorite example is seeing a friendly Spy hiding around the corner such as the bottom of the sewer stairs in 2Fort, I see an enemy approach, I lure him towards me, the Spy gets a backstab, I taunt above the corpse), to firing confusing volleys at the front lines at enemies who are distracted, and is very good at taking out straggling enemies who are running away. He works well as a singular unit, but only when he's facing lone enemies. He works his best when working cohesively with a team, especially when there's a push being made towards a control point or intelligence which is where he shines the most.
 
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FreakingHell said:
A scout should encourage team work on both sides.

ex1. A scout stuns an enemy player, somebody else takes him out easily, like a sniper.

ex2. You stun an ng from a distance allowing a soldier or heavy to take out his level 3 sentry easy because he can't repair it.

ex3. You drink the bonk drink, run by an enemy sentry, therefore distracting it drawing it's fire, and another player on your team gets the sentry, piece of cake.

ex4. You get stunned, your team should protect you.

And like DRaGZ said, this is particularly true in attack/defend maps, which I just happen to play more than anything else, so I suppose I might have a different perspective of the scout.
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You misread my post, although the scouts do not work on a team they give advantages to their team over the enemy as you listed. Still, the sandman needed no more than a shorter stun time for ubers, the normal damage on those stunned just encouraged you to stay in a group more.
 
Well, im pretty sure you havnt really seen the last of the improvements or nerfs of the sandman either way, for now everyone can relax at what they have done to it and later everyone will cry some more.
 
Carmine said:
You misread my post, although the scouts do not work on a team they give advantages to their team over the enemy as you listed. Still, the sandman needed no more than a shorter stun time for ubers, the normal damage on those stunned just encouraged you to stay in a group more.
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Hmm, well i consider those things as teamwork so I suppose it's just teamwork from my point of view vs yours. :P
 
DRaGZ said:
The Scout is not a very good report unit, mainly due to the fact that he's so noticeable when he goes flying through a base and attracts lots of attention, meaning he's usually not able to get to the meat of places if there is proper Sentry placement. A Spy is far more useful for such things.

And I'm surprised at how many believe the Scout only works well alone. The Scout is the ultimate tool for luring enemies into ambushes (my favorite example is seeing a friendly Spy hiding around the corner such as the bottom of the sewer stairs in 2Fort, I see an enemy approach, I lure him towards me, the Spy gets a backstab, I taunt above the corpse), to firing confusing volleys at the front lines at enemies who are distracted, and is very good at taking out straggling enemies who are running away. He works well as a singular unit, but only when he's facing lone enemies. He works his best when working cohesively with a team, especially when there's a push being made towards a control point or intelligence which is where he shines the most.
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Your last few examples there prove my point. He can work with a spy or hiding demoman, but for that bit of time he is alone, scouting for enemies. Firing at confused enemy lines is just what I said as the scout standing in the back sniping with the pistol, otherwise he is dead at any decent range for his shotguns. And guess what taking out straggling units is: a scout being all alone out in the wilderness taking out a lone unit. In my opinion a scout it supposed to be able to best lone units. If you aren't working with your team and your class doesn't fit the description of a loner (everything but scout and spy) then you should die to the loner class.
 
hmm this update pretty much rules out the use of the sandman. No double jump and 50% less damage? so all it's usefull for now is uber stun. ill stick to the normal bat from now on, made my decision easier for me lol
 
-50% damage when they are stunned is not the end of the world. It just means that the stunned has a chance to not die instantly when you get stunned.

Now, heaven forbid, the Sandman is actually a SIDEgrade, not an UPgrade.
 
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