team stacking observations and a challenge.

[shade]

I?ve searched the forums and I realize that this is a perennial topic but I wanted to say a thing or two about team stacking.

First I want to put out a little disclaimer. I?m not making this post to whine about getting rolled by a team of elite players. I personally don?t really mind being on a losing team, and I usually enjoy the challenge. Those who have played with me can attest to the fact that I?ve never whined about losing, and I never try to switch to the winning team.

That being said, I?ve been playing on the Dustbowl server for almost six months now, and I?ve noticed that lately the teams have seemed a lot more stacked. I know that most of the time it probably happens naturally or innocently. I know that I like to play with players with whom I?m familiar and who I know I can trust to Uber me at the right moment, or build their SGs in the right spot. Although this synergy and teamwork is a HUGE part of what makes TF2 great, it can also lead to problems. To be frank, I don?t really care about hurting the feelings of John Doe Hot-Head when he gets rolled on five times in a row. What does concern me is the affect this can have on the server standings and the community as a whole.

Example:

The other night I was playing, and the teams were very uneven. After about 30 minutes, our team began dropping/rage-quitting like crazy. In about a fifteen minute span I probably saw ten people leave the server, and quite a few who joined left soon after because they were getting beaten so bad. What eventually happened was that enough people quit that the teams were auto-balanced and they eventually evened out. The problem was solved, and the teams ended up being even, but by that time there were only 24 people on a server that is usually packed with 32. Also, correct me if I?m wrong, but the constant joining and quitting of players also damages our server rankings.

There are some solutions that exist, and that have been brought up before:

The first is shuffling the teams. Right now we have the vote shuffle thing. As most people know, the vote almost always fails. Another problem is that I think when a vote is initiated, it highlights the problem, and then the whiners come out in full force (if they weren?t out before). One option would be give Admins full power to shuffle teams. I don?t really like this option too much. First there is the potential of over-admining, which can kill a server pretty quick. Second, if the admin is on the losing team, you can bet there will be cries of bias. It seems like a huge headache waiting to happen.

Another solution that has been brought up before is to have the map reset more often. This is a problem because this is a time that people will often leave a server. Furthermore, when the map is reset, many people will not join a team until they find which team the best players are joining

I think that the real solution should not come from admin/server changes. I think that the solution needs to come from the culture of the eGO community itself. The basis of our community is mature gaming that focuses on having fun. I think part of maturity means making a point to join the losing team if you think you can make a difference. There are people in this clan who I?ve seen play on the opposite team of black_hand only a handful of times in the last few months. To all of the experienced players I?d like to issue a challenge/invitation to reframe your mentality about playing the game: join the losing team; join the team that you don?t have any friends on; focus on elevating the players who are less experienced than you; focus on getting to know the playing style of someone you aren?t familiar with; try to make the server competitive and fun for everyone. By doing these things we can make sure that the teams stay more even, that the servers stay more full, and that the community will stay strong.

Peace,

shade.:cool_old:

 

[Zergspower]

Call in a few friends, try a team scramble with an admin, or do what i do, even the teams out yourself by moving to the losing team and organizing em, im known for not shutting up until we are winning

 

[shade]

...do what i do, even the teams out yourself by moving to the losing team and organizing em, im known for not shutting up until we are winning

Kudos to you. Not that I hold any water in this community, but that's what I'd like to see more of.:thumbup1:

 

[Blender]

Very nice post! Gettin' back to the eGO basics, playing a punk-free, fair, fun game and having the best servers in TF2!

@Zerg: I also do this, and I can be as nice and tender as possible when I try to organize the team in voice, but the majority of the people who play this game will not respond to a voice such as mine when I say something, so I often just have to play on that team and hope people will get the idea of, "Hey, instead of worrying about points and killing anyone I see and going out all alone, why not help the team?" Hehe. But I like playing on the loosing team! More of a challenge and if you win, the reward is AWESOME!

But yeah, nice post, nice thoughts, make our servers as nice as possible and keep our standards high, y'know?!

 

[spoolinEvolution]

You can't win em all. When alot of people start complaining an admin usually handles it by starting a scramble vote. Other than that, one side will sometimes be mercilessly owned.

 

[Thereven]

Even when I want to even out the teams, most of the time you can't do it because the server settings won't allow a player to switch teams if they're even in numbers. The best I can do is wait until someone quits from the losing team and then try to switch before another player joins.

Is there a way to set the team balance to allow 15 vs 17 players when the team with 15 is completely dominating? Or will it always be set to 16 vs 16 no matter what?

 

[Candlejack]

shade you have a lot of good points, especially the last one. Although I'm not good enough to change the tide of any games, sometimes O-D-M and I will switch together to try to balance teams that need a little more help. It's not fun trying organize an entire team by yourself; it's actually really frustrating.. but try to get a few people from the rolling team to switch and the losing team will probably follow your lead.
I think lowering the scramble vote % to 55% would help a bit, but dustbowl's always going to be owned by really good demos. I've been in games where one team would roll for a while and then the other team will roll for a while, and even ones where neither team can get anywhere. I kind of like it that way.

You take the good, you take the bad,
you take them both and there you have
The facts of dustbowl, the facts of dustbowl.

 

[Sphen]

I agree with that challenge, infact that's a personal preference of mine. Red team getting rolled on Gold Rush? One engi can turn the tide. Can't push past that second point on the second map of Dustbowl? Get some Ubers on those demomen and take that point! Sure, its fun to be on the winning team but its -making- your team the winners that is truly where tf2 shines. Even if you don't consider yourself skilled enough, one positive voice of teamwork can really change a round.

 

[b4k3d b34nz]

Not that I hold any water in this community, but that's what I'd like to see more of.

You're holding water by making an educated, well-written post on a topic that's important to pretty much anybody who plays TF2. Thanks for taking the time to think it through.

My opinion is that it's individual responsibility that makes teamwork the best. Complaining and whining don't do much. Doing your part and encouraging the rest of your team goes a long way to reversing a steamroll. Also, that attrition can be a good thing--so what if the servers lose 8 players? Chances are that most of them were the complainers, and we can do without them (or at least their attitude) anyway.

Good post.

 

[_Xx_HeX_xX_]

Call in a few friends, try a team scramble with an admin, or do what i do, even the teams out yourself by moving to the losing team and organizing em, im known for not shutting up until we are winning

lol at you moving to the losing team , asuming you always win ?

 

[_Xx_HeX_xX_]

i contribute team stacking to this , communication , if you are losing start communicating with the whole team , after all most times that why the otehr teams doing so well

 

[Cl!FF]

There are some solutions that exist, and that have been brought up before:

Another solution that has been brought up before is to have the map reset more often. This is a problem because this is a time that people will often leave a server. Furthermore, when the map is reset, many people will not join a team until they find which team the best players are joining

More resets will lead to the indentification of the better players, so they will stack together faster, it was tried already.

There are people in this clan who I?ve seen play on the opposite team of black_hand only a handful of times in the last few months.

Actually the problem is that black_hand is also attracted to certain players, he knows the good players as well as we all do. So sometimes it is not that we do not dare to face him, he just joins us

 

[Candlejack]

It would also help if more teams started going left.

 

[Ballzac]

yea sometimes we will do a scramble because the teams are completly stacked but they fail, thus making people go GRRR

 

[Overheal]

yea sometimes we will do a scramble because the teams are completly stacked but they fail, thus making people go GRRR

The leading cause of a vote failure (ie. Not enough votes) Is when a vote is initiated mid-round. At this point everyone is busy sniping, stabbing, lobbing grenades, and spitting bullets. Your chances of even seeing the scramble ballot on the left of your screen are then incredibly slim.

By calling a vote during setup or the end of a round you greatly increase the odds that all players will place their yes/no vote while they are not distracted by shiny things.

People are less inclined to go GRR if they see "vote result NO (35% of 30 votes)" than "Vote Failed".

Also ++ to the idea of shortening the 24/7 round times. 4+ hours is a long time and does increase the odds of a stack. You get two good teams, one prevails over the other, losers leave, good team stays. Then that becomes viral, and the good team faces an ever revolving door of players trying to get into their groove versus a well knit brigade. Shortening it to 2 hours or so would possibly see less of this to the satisfaction of everyone.

 

[Candlejack]

I've only seen a couple of votes that were not initiated during setup or when the round ends. Usually the admins will talk about it once the round is over and call the vote during setup, but most of them still fail.

 

[Overheal]

Well, nothing is foolproof. But at least during setup you are giving it much, much better odds of completing.

Also what if an audible warning played when the vote was called? Just a unique chime or ding or VOX phrase.

 

[GardenGroveVW]

I really don't want to be mean here, but we have tried this over and over and over again, same problem. We shortened the time, added this plugin. . . still team stacking, still the same story.

It starts with all the admins switching to the losing team. < Even that doesn't work. You can't make a sucky team do any better. If the team sucks, it just sucks.

If you guys haven't played L4D vrs I recommend you do so. That game sucks in vrs, if you aren't good you will get rolled hard.


If you guys come up with a solution we are all ears, but it starts with admins, and it starts with you as a player, if you are good then switch to the loosing team.

I know for a fact it sucks having to do it, I know for a fact that most of you don't switch. We can't force you to switch sides, but it is recommended. That is like me making you wear your tags EVERY where you go, we just can't do that.

Again, if you guys come up with a solution, we will review it, we have been dealing with this problem for MONTHS.


PS, Just because you have an =(e)= =(eG)= =(eGO)=, doesn't make you the best player in the world. Remember, we are all here to have fun, and show everyone a good gaming experience.

 

[GardenGroveVW]

On an unrelated not, we are taking down the eGO_ScrambleTeams plugin for updates.

Thanks.

If you absolutely need the teams scrambled, find an advisor/DL.

 

[Ryken]

Maybe you could make it so less people need to say "yes" to the scramble? A good ole' fashion simple red, white, and blue majority might work. Make it so it only takes one good soul on that winning team to release that a good fight is more fun than a steam roll for everyone.