Moral Dilemma - What do you save first?

Moral Dilemma: What do you save first?


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In all seriousness, both sides make very good points...

I'd say I'd probably save whichever one (sentry/dispenser) I could get to first and try to save the other one before hunting the spy down and then raging when he face-stabs and saps my remaining buildings :P
 
As an engineer, I have strafed and shotgunned a level one sentry to death, by myself.

If a level one sentry is unnoticed, maybe. if anyone actually knows about it, it's toast, and so are you.

EDIT: if it's being repaired, sure... but it can't take more than one person that way. you're going to be sitting there tanking something with 150 health while instead, you could be shotgunning the survivors of your 128 dps barrage with rockets.

Regardless, that is like what, 10 seconds of level 1 protection until it is up to level 2? Again, unless you are being actively attacked I say the dispenser is what I save.
 
As any other class, I'd prefer the engi to keep up his dispenser. If there is no active attackers then the dispenser is the way to go.

My question to everyone who says sentry regardless of the scenario, what happens if a few seconds later and uber stomps through and boom! sentry down (often dispensers are neglected in contested ubers). Are you going to be able to rebuild as fast having no or a level 1 dispenser? If you want to keep a sentry up as much as possible, don't you want as much metal as possible?

Given that you aren't around your stuff to save it all that means
a) You are just spawning: Teleporters most likely the only thing you'll save
b) You are helping your team counter push: The enemy is not in the territory you are trying to deny space, enoguh time to rebuild a sentry.
c) You are roaming for metal: Why let you metal cow die?
d) You had to run from an uber that neglected your sentry as it was being sapped. Here i'd go for the sentry if there are still enemies near.
 
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Dispenser.

Just play 2Fort and look for a player named Locutus on the red team in the water. That boy knows how to annoy people, its because of his lvl 3 dispenser.
 
Dispenser for faster setting up you can also get the metal from ur destroyed stuff to build another sentry.
 
As any other class, I'd prefer the engi to keep up his dispenser. If there is no active attackers then the dispenser is the way to go.

My question to everyone who says sentry regardless of the scenario, what happens if a few seconds later and uber stomps through and boom! sentry down (often dispensers are neglected in contested ubers). Are you going to be able to rebuild as fast having no or a level 1 dispenser?

Flawed logic. If an uber barges through, you and your level 1-3 dispenser are likely both dead. I don't know about you, but I target dispensers happily when I'm ubered, they're weak, and will inhibit and engineer's ability to rebuild. That said, a gun is still higher priority to kill because a dead engi can't rebuild anything, so take away his sentry and you can kill him pretty easily. Also, ubers are like a rallying banner for an offensive team...you rarely see a medic and his uber target run in, uber, and then just leave. Usually, at least on good teams, they are coordinated rushes that follow the uber in. All the more reason your little dispensers is just going to be a punching bag for whatever heavy happens upon it first.

If you, as the engi, have a level 3 gun though, you may be able to sky or push back an uber and make it out in one piece. Not saying it'll happen every time, or even most of the time, but it will happen sometimes. But only if you have a sentry.
 
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I would save the teleporter, ask for a pyro or someone to help by using the tele and to defend the tele and myself as I quickly rebuild.
 
I would choose the dispenser. The steady flow of metal will help me get my nest set up in no time:)

Although, the teleporter would be my second choice. Hopefully a fatman or pyro will be come along and help defend while I set up.
 
Regardless, that is like what, 10 seconds of level 1 protection until it is up to level 2? Again, unless you are being actively attacked I say the dispenser is what I save.

Let's re-assess this in real terms, because this debate is at a standstill. I see the dispenser's side of things, certainly. You get set up faster again, assuming you aren't under any sort of attack.

My side of things works under the assumption that you WILL be under attack, and frequently. Therefore, the sentry is going to make more sense to save.


In order to come to consensus, we need to look specifically at this scenario, because while 9 times out of 10, I do believe that the sentry is the correct answer, each scenario is different and requires different assessment.


You're on the roof in badwater. There is a 100 metal spawn beside you, and you're overlooking the point that the cart has to pass through. That last point is the most important to our debate.


Usually, in my experience, once a spy saps your buildings, it means that the other team knows about you. Typically, it means that the other team (or at least, those with voice) have come to the conclusion that your set-up needs to go away. This usually leads to a spy on the other team going for a sap. This is a number of assumptions, but I hope we can agree that a spy sapping your buildings typically means the other team is aware of both your location, and the fact that your equipment is down.


The next set of assumptions we have to make is around the location of the cart. we can likely assume that the cart is past the first point, and around the corner of the second point. There is little reason for a spy to run 2 points ahead and destroy any equipment on it, especially when he could be sapping equipment on the point in immediate contention, or just backstabbing the next point's defenders. Why worry about the end when you haven't gotten past the beginning yet? Therefore, for this to happen, there's a good chance that the cart is past the first point, but not past the second yet.


So, let's put the two together. The other team thinks the point is clean and the cart is likely right around the corner from it. The obvious next step is to get a large number of people escorting the cart to the second point. Before this step, however, likely, a scout or an eager pyro might step up and try to solo-cap it. So, based on the previous 2 assumptions, we can assume that the point is about to be under heavy contention.


Now, back to the engineering scenario, we have to choose something to save. Originally, I argued sentry first, then teleporter, and dispenser last in terms of priority, and I maintain that. according to these assumptions, the point WILL be under attack RIGHT NOW. This means saving a dispenser and having a level 1 may just lose you a point. Your gun is going to come under fire no matter what happens, and it's going to happen almost immediately after you're sapped, because the spy was likely coordinating with his team.

In this case, I would absolutely save the sentry first. a dispenser and teleporter will leave 120 metal behind between the 2 of them, which is enough to immediately get a new dispenser. You then run to the metal spawn to get the 100 metal back, and whack the dispenser to get it up in 15-20 seconds. If you need to interrupt this process with shotgunning people or wrenching your gun, that's just fine, because your dispenser is not nearly as critical to your success in defending the point IN THE IMMEDIATE FUTURE.

After the dispenser is up, you presumably have 120 metal still, so you hit it up a bit, and get the metal spawn (which has respawned by now) and upgrade it to level 2. At this point, you start to slowly rebuild.

The important thing in this case is that your gun is maintained, because during this time when you're setting up your dispenser, there's a good chance the other team is trying to push the point. Your gun has 216 health, and deals great knockback and flat damage. There's a good chance that since the spy informed the other team of your demise, you will catch a good number of people off-guard. This includes those scouts and pyros I talked about before that want to be the hero. If you only had a level 1 up, yes, perhaps you could tank it so it wouldn't die, but people would take a bullet or two and immediately know what was happening. This carries a few issues.

First, no kills. Even a sandman scout could probably get away in time. Second, that scout would inform the team that you're rebuilding. This carries the assumption that you aren't well established, which would be accurate. you would then likely be dealt with by stronger classes to a magnitude that not even tanking could fix.

Why is having a level 3 different? Well, the scout wouldn't live, first of all, which means a minimum of about 10 seconds before he can communicate his cause of death to the team. This potentially leads to more 'walk in' deaths before the team knows again. Secondly, he will communicate not that you're setting up again, but that you're still there. This connotes that you are still well established and that more resources, like an uber, need to be diverted to fix you. This will delay the enemy on a psychological as well as a physical level, and in a map style where time is very key, this will delay the opposing team longer than saving your dispenser.

I say delay because neither set up is permanent; in either case, you'll be taken out again quickly. However, in one case, a soldier will peek out and kill you with no damage to the team, where in the other case, you'll probably get a few unexpected kills and potentially waste an uber. Ultimately, keeping the sentry maintains the pressure and keeps the area protected with no gaps, whereas the dispenser will cause a leak in defense that not only shows weakness on a psychological level, but will potentially cause you to lose the point without diverting any significant amount of the other team's resources.
 
This whole theory pins on the enemy team having good communication, people don't scrim on badwater, so it will be a pub game. People aren't going to be communicating well, when they are it is a rarity.

Spys tend to be lone guns who go do what they can, I rarely see them communicate that they just sapped a nest. I rarely see warnings that there is a sentry ahead, people just seem to let you find out yourself. If you are up against a well coordinated communicating team, yeah save your sentry first, you are right there, but how often does that really happen? It would be more useful to have the rest of your stuff built quicker.

Regardless this theory is moot for a skilled defensive engineer, you should be watching your buildings, how did you let a spy sap them all leaving you only enough time to save one building?
 
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This whole theory pins on the enemy team having good communication, people don't scrim on badwater, so it will be a pub game. People aren't going to be communicating well, when they are it is a rarity.

Spys tend to be lone guns who go do what they can, I rarely see them communicate that they just sapped a nest. I rarely see warnings that there is a sentry ahead, people just seem to let you find out yourself. If you are up against a well coordinated communicating team, yeah save your sentry first, you are right there, but how often does that really happen? It would be more useful to have the rest of your stuff built quicker.

Regardless this theory is moot for a skilled defensive engineer, you should be watching your buildings, how did you let a spy sap them all leaving you only enough time to save one building?



I think you're right, it would be a pub game, and it would be loosely organized, but in my experience, there's always one, if not a few people, who will relay BASIC information to a team, like "there's a sentry there". I certainly don't think it would need to be at scrim level; the information that is relayed in TF2 in a basic pub game is usually not used well, and that's fine. The main point is that the information is THERE. Typically, someone with a mic will say "there's a sentry around the corner", and then, later "sentry's down". It doesn't take a rocket scientist to get that level of communication going, and I don't think THAT is a rarity. Using the information well is something else completely, and I fully agree that THAT is a very rare occasion.

However, I stick with my point, because you are assuming that the other team is completely unorganized. This may be true more often than it's not, but that falls under the category of 'underestimating the enemy'. The spy probably did act alone, and the team may not know a damned thing. But, by assuming that is the case, and risking not having a level 3 sentry up for 30 seconds, I believe you're opening yourself up to a world of hurt on the off-chance that your assumption is wrong.

equally, I would argue that if you ARE right, and the opposing team IS actually unorganized, you lose nothing by keeping the sentry up first. Time, in that case, will not be of the essence, because the push will not come immediately, or in any organized way. Setting up a sentry and a teleporter from scratch, assuming limitless metal, means 60 seconds at an absolute minimum. Setting up a dispenser and a teleporter takes 70 seconds at a minimum, and I would argue that while it might take a little longer than that due to limited metal supply, if you set up according to what I said in the previous post, it wouldn't be much longer than that. However, that extra few seconds at the end means 30 extra seconds of level 3 sentry covering the area at the beginning. This difference of 10-20 seconds, however, functionally won't matter if the other team isn't coordinated.

So, in the case of an unorganized opposing team, it doesn't matter which you save. but, there is no guarantee that the opposing team is unorganized; for all you know, they might all have mics and are coordinating brilliantly, even for a randomly sampled pub group. As you said yourself:

If you are up against a well coordinated communicating team, yeah save your sentry first.

Therefore, in one case, we agree that the sentry is what you save, and in the other, it doesn't particularly matter because you have functionally unlimited time to set up again. If this is the case, why not cut out the assumption, and simply save your sentry first? if the other team is unorganized 9 times out of 10, saving your sentry first won't make a difference in 9 of those times, and in that other 1, it will delay the team longer and potentially mean the difference between winning and losing.


Also, I do agree; it'd be fairly unlikely that a lone-wolf spy would take out 2 of my 3 buildings if I wasn't sedated in some way, but this is a hypothetical scenario.
 
It's a trick question. Nobody plays on Badwater. The correct answer is to quit the map and go play Blackmesa. ;)
 
!slay @blue
sm_remove sapper @all

Silly spies should never mess with an admin :P

Yes, sm_remove doesn't work. Have some imagination
 
Yes, sm_remove doesn't work.
It doesn't work for *you* because that command is reserved for advisor and up. :P

Ya know, that kind of sillyness interlaced with the Carmy + Dread tactical engineering debate fill this thread with win.
 
A well coordinated team will not be stop by 1 level 3 guarded by an engy with no way to heal or get metal without risking leaving his/her sg. Even a pyro can start buring the sg if it's positioned close enough to the door leading to the roof top.

Assuming it's a coordinated team they would know that the sg is still up but the dispenser and teleporter is down. Easy points because there are 3 ways to attack the sg. Regardless of what you do, against a coordinated team it will go down effortlessly.

However if you save the dispenser you can provide some minor help to your team before it gets taken down. Perhaps a soldier will rocket jump up there and use it to heal up and guard the roof giving you enough time to come back and build up again.
 
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I'd save the sentry. The Spy is still around. If the sentry is still up, they have to sap that again before attacking you. Plus, while you build your dispenser up again, you can easily run off to build a new entrance and get more metal from spawn and start upgrading the dispenser. If you didn't have the sentry there, the spy would most likely attack your stuff again, or you while you're build your things.
 
I'm with most people. Depends on the situation with how both teams are situated.
 
However if you save the dispenser you can provide some minor help to your team before it gets taken down. Perhaps a soldier will rocket jump up there and use it to heal up and guard the roof giving you enough time to come back and build up again.


I think that's a pretty weak assumption. The chances of a soldier rocket jumping up there (and not using the stairs at the back or front) are somewhat slim, and my thought is that unless your team is also coordinated like the other team, nobody will help you unless by random happenstance. Frankly, in this case, if you have a choice to fortify your position or potentially heal up a rocket jumping soldier, it's a no-brainer. If the position were going to be more permanent, that's different, but Carmine and I AND you agree that this position isn't going to stay there for long, and if you're only going to be up there for another minute, you might as well give yourself the chance for more kills. Even on a coordinated team, there's a chance you're going to be able to pop that scout who rushes the cart.

Your team is even less likely to come out to help you because your teleporter will be down. Not only does that not allow them quick access to the roof, but it also tells them that your setup is dead, making it clear that going up there is a suicide mission. Until you get the teleporter back up, you're on your own. The two highest priority items are the dispenser and the sentry, so I stand by that since you likely won't be there long, you keep the sentry first while building another dispenser. It delays the other team longer and protects you, if only temporarily, while you try to rebuild.
 
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