Thoughtful Weapon Discussion of the Week #1: Heavy Melee

[Roker]

This ^.

this

 

[Mr Medic]

gloves, who melee's with heavy anyway? unless your doing it for fun

Winners!

 

[QB]

Gloves. It's uncommon to need to melee as a heavy, but you might as well have a massive advantage when you are forced to melee. I've seen heavies that I play with get 6-8 kills just from those 2-3 seconds of KGB crits.

 

[Planeswalker]

Fists, far more enjoyable. To hell with stats.

 

[stacksondeck]

Fists, far more enjoyable. To hell with stats.

How so? I feel that chaining crit punches is quite enjoyable.

 

[Zerockas]

KGB + Dalokahs Bar == win. You get 50 more health to pummel your opponents into CRITICAL submission with.

 

[Tecanuva]

KGB for life

The kritz are uber handy...get it? Kritz....uber....Ha! I crack me up. Regardless, I prefer KGB due to the criticals because all you have to do is run into a big group and click. Totally different from any other class...

 

[Planeswalker]

How so? I feel that chaining crit punches is quite enjoyable.

-My screen isn't filled with boxing gloves
-I can still taunt kill
-And because.

 

[Skill/CJaZ]

Ever seen what a Heavy can do to 21 Scouts when he has KGB kritz? 'Nuff said.

 

[opscomm]

I don't usually play heavy, but when I do, I prefer to use the fists both for its faster attacking speed and its kill taunting ability.

 

[stacksondeck]

I don't usually play heavy, but when I do, I prefer to use the fists both for its faster attacking speed and its kill taunting ability.

Hahaha, I'm imagining you saying this like the "Most Interesting Man in the World" from those Dos Equis commercials.

 

[Whisker Biscuit]

The KGB crit bonus can be transferred to other weapons, but I find that in practice, it's rare that that ability sees a use.

I beg to differ.

KGB.

 

[Louis VI]

Personally, I enjoy using the KGB, the big advantage is the crits after you get a kill and for the fist... I don't really have lot of things to say about them except this picture explains it all :

Please Refer to NCA post for further information...

 

[Dreadmaker]

I have to say that this is a pretty 2 sided discussion. Look at the poll: it's a pretty even split.

I have to say that my reasoning for using the fists over the KGB was pretty well the same as those using the KGB over the fists. Heavy melee is used very infrequently. Some argue that for the times where you DO want to punch people, having 100% crits is great, but a lot of others have said it doesn't really matter because it IS so infrequent. My argument is the logical opposite: if I'm going to be meleeing so infrequently, why not have a taunt kill ready for when you DO want to do something funny?

Having said that, the other day, I switched to the gloves, just to give it a shot again (after dismissing them for the taunt kill about a week after the update came out). It was much better than I expected, but, then again, I was trying really hard to find opportunities to melee people. It's inefficient, because at that range you could mow people down real fast with the minigun, but the crits ARE nice, and in fact, the transferred 3 seconds of minigun crit you get is pretty solid. It's more viable now that they buffed spin up time.

In any case, I think I stand by my original decision of the fists generally, but this exercise has got me playing more with the gloves. Good stuff... keep it up

(Also, because of how many weapon discussions there could well be, I believe these posts will be more frequent than once a week. Plus, it has indeed inspired a good amount of interesting discussion. Great stuff guys!)

 

[Carmine]

I have to say that this is a pretty 2 sided discussion. Look at the poll: it's a pretty even split.

I have to say that my reasoning for using the fists over the KGB was pretty well the same as those using the KGB over the fists. Heavy melee is used very infrequently. Some argue that for the times where you DO want to punch people, having 100% crits is great, but a lot of others have said it doesn't really matter because it IS so infrequent. My argument is the logical opposite: if I'm going to be meleeing so infrequently, why not have a taunt kill ready for when you DO want to do something funny?

Having said that, the other day, I switched to the gloves, just to give it a shot again (after dismissing them for the taunt kill about a week after the update came out). It was much better than I expected, but, then again, I was trying really hard to find opportunities to melee people. It's inefficient, because at that range you could mow people down real fast with the minigun, but the crits ARE nice, and in fact, the transferred 3 seconds of minigun crit you get is pretty solid. It's more viable now that they buffed spin up time.

In any case, I think I stand by my original decision of the fists generally, but this exercise has got me playing more with the gloves. Good stuff... keep it up

(Also, because of how many weapon discussions there could well be, I believe these posts will be more frequent than once a week. Plus, it has indeed inspired a good amount of interesting discussion. Great stuff guys!)

See you choose fists not because they are better weapons, but because you never melee and you like having a taunt kill. But any serious heavy will be using KGB, they are just way better, and melee opportunities do come by often when you run out of ammo.

It is like the difference between ubersaw and bonesaw, but in this case the bonesaw would have a taunt kill, thats how much better the KGB are.

 

[Sharp_Shooter]

I can't stir away from being able to aim your taunt.

 

[QB]

IMO one of the best maps for the gloves is 2fort. You can come up from enemy sewer and catch people in their front door, boxing them to death easily. Then you can usually proceed to mow down everyone on the bridge or in their sink room.

So I guess really your preference will also depend heavily on what maps you play - not just your personal play style.

 

[Dreadmaker]

See you choose fists not because they are better weapons, but because you never melee and you like having a taunt kill. But any serious heavy will be using KGB, they are just way better, and melee opportunities do come by often when you run out of ammo.

It is like the difference between ubersaw and bonesaw, but in this case the bonesaw would have a taunt kill, thats how much better the KGB are.

I agree with you in concept, but not in practice. I don't disagree with the fact that the KGB are superior weapons as far as combat is concerned. However, I rarely melee as a heavy, so it wouldn't really matter if there was a 1-shot-death-to-everything-always melee weapon... It just doesn't hold a candle to the minigun at close range.

And I think the medic analogy is a bad one. I use the ubersaw because it gives real combat benefits to a class that doesn't see combat often. Generally, I don't use the needlegun because If I don't have someone to attack for me, I'm either running away or ubersawing them in the face for extra charge. There's no close range alternative.

The heavy's gloves might give him a temporary benefit, but it's use depends on there being more than one person in the area. The medic's saw gives him a benefit that stays with him until he decides to put it to use. If the medic's kill taunt was on the bonesaw, it would be no contest for me; I would be using the ubersaw.

I still think that the KGB, while superior in direct combat, are too situational to give up the taunt for. My thought is that since I never use melee, Why is it better to have an ability to situationally grant me temporary crits than to have one that kills people at range? You say it's so superior, and it's true that if I were in a melee only server, it wouldn't be a contest; however, in a regular, live game, I don't see much difference. equally situational, equally weighted.



EDIT: Also, you say opportunities for melee come up a lot when you're out of ammo; I play heavy regularly, and it's extremely rare that I run out of ammo. Simply picking up the weapons of the dead enemies almost ALWAYS does it for me; plus, if and when I DO run out of ammo, I'm running to try and find some more, not trying to punch people in the face.

 

[Carmine]

I agree with you in concept, but not in practice. I don't disagree with the fact that the KGB are superior weapons as far as combat is concerned. However, I rarely melee as a heavy, so it wouldn't really matter if there was a 1-shot-death-to-everything-always melee weapon... It just doesn't hold a candle to the minigun at close range.

See you admit it right here, the KGB are superior weapons as far as combat is concerned, that is all the incentive I need to choose them over the fists, they are better, simple as that.

And I think the medic analogy is a bad one. I use the ubersaw because it gives real combat benefits to a class that doesn't see combat often. Generally, I don't use the needlegun because If I don't have someone to attack for me, I'm either running away or ubersawing them in the face for extra charge. There's no close range alternative.

The heavy's gloves might give him a temporary benefit, but it's use depends on there being more than one person in the area. The medic's saw gives him a benefit that stays with him until he decides to put it to use. If the medic's kill taunt was on the bonesaw, it would be no contest for me; I would be using the ubersaw.

The medic analogy may be be the best since the ubersaw is insanely better than the bonesaw, but it gets the point across in that it is a superior weapon. Maybe a better one would have been Equalizer to Shovel, sure the shovel has always been a trusty weapon for the soldier, but as soon as they add a versatile weapon like the equalizer the possibilities multiple greatly. A soldier using an Equalizer has so many more strategic options than one using a shovel, the same goes for the fists and KGB.

I still think that the KGB, while superior in direct combat, are too situational to give up the taunt for. My thought is that since I never use melee, Why is it better to have an ability to situationally grant me temporary crits than to have one that kills people at range? You say it's so superior, and it's true that if I were in a melee only server, it wouldn't be a contest; however, in a regular, live game, I don't see much difference. equally situational, equally weighted.

I think the opposite, taunt kills are so situational they almost never happen, you may get one outside of a tie period in a day of playing if you aren't trying constantly to get a taunt kill. The ability to situationaly grant you crits makes all the world of difference, you said yourself that the frontier justice is a straight upgrade from the shotgun because it offers you crits. The KGB may not store crits but a heavy should be in the thick of combat, it is rare to meet just a single enemy, and being able to kill both easier more than makes up for the lack of a hard to aim and use yet easy to dodge taunt kill.

EDIT: Also, you say opportunities for melee come up a lot when you're out of ammo; I play heavy regularly, and it's extremely rare that I run out of ammo. Simply picking up the weapons of the dead enemies almost ALWAYS does it for me; plus, if and when I DO run out of ammo, I'm running to try and find some more, not trying to punch people in the face.

I may play heavy differently, I do not start firing my minigun from close range only, I will pepper enemies with it from mid and long range if I think I can do some damage to help my teammates or disrupt a sniper's aiming and make him take cover. The minigun chews up ammo and as such I do run out of ammo quite a bit, I often run out of ammo while shooting at someone, being able to finish them off with the KGB then pick up their ammo and kill a few more people with minigun crits is much less situational than the taunt kill. Heavy has a big enough health pool that running out of ammo shouldn't send you scurrying if you almost got a kill, proceed to kill the enemy then take ammo from their dead body, the crits should provide you with enough of a damage boost to finish off anyone else trying to kill you.

 

[Dreadmaker]

See you admit it right here, the KGB are superior weapons as far as combat is concerned, that is all the incentive I need to choose them over the fists, they are better, simple as that.

Yes, I do. I'm not fighting that they're better. It's just that I've chosen not to use them because of their situational predisposition, not because they are inferior.

The medic analogy may be be the best since the ubersaw is insanely better than the bonesaw, but it gets the point across in that it is a superior weapon. Maybe a better one would have been Equalizer to Shovel, sure the shovel has always been a trusty weapon for the soldier, but as soon as they add a versatile weapon like the equalizer the possibilities multiple greatly. A soldier using an Equalizer has so many more strategic options than one using a shovel, the same goes for the fists and KGB.

I agree; the soldier analogy is much better. I see where you were going with the medic one, but the ubersaw is very much NOT situational; its specific function can be, but the actual power behind its use is not. ubers can be delpoyed any time; heavy crits from the KGB have a time limit. That's what I tend to mean by situational.

The ability to situationaly grant you crits makes all the world of difference, you said yourself that the frontier justice is a straight upgrade from the shotgun because it offers you crits. The KGB may not store crits but a heavy should be in the thick of combat, it is rare to meet just a single enemy, and being able to kill both easier more than makes up for the lack of a hard to aim and use yet easy to dodge taunt kill.

I agree with this to an extent. As you acknowledge here, the KGB doesn't STORE crits. If the FJ gave you a given number of seconds of crits proportional to how well your gun did, as opposed to a limited number of 100% guaranteed crits as long as you live, it would be a harder choice. that stored ability is key, and it's why both the FJ AND the ubersaw are straight upgrades; they allow for flexibility.

I agree heavies should be in the thick of combat, but if there are four guys around you, are you honestly going to be meleeing? In this situation, I imagine I would get the job done faster by simply gunning them all down. Even if you kill the one guy with the gloves and crit down the others, you haven't spun up, and at least one of the guys will probably have gotten away. My beef is simply that in any situation where there's more than one person, I won't be using melee. And, where I DO use melee, for instance killing the spy that sapping all of our tele exits, there's nobody near by for me to use the crits on.

I may play heavy differently, I do not start firing my minigun from close range only, I will pepper enemies with it from mid and long range if I think I can do some damage to help my teammates or disrupt a sniper's aiming and make him take cover. The minigun chews up ammo and as such I do run out of ammo quite a bit, I often run out of ammo while shooting at someone, being able to finish them off with the KGB then pick up their ammo and kill a few more people with minigun crits is much less situational than the taunt kill. Heavy has a big enough health pool that running out of ammo shouldn't send you scurrying if you almost got a kill, proceed to kill the enemy then take ammo from their dead body, the crits should provide you with enough of a damage boost to finish off anyone else trying to kill you.

We do play the heavy differently, but not entirely. I'll also fire at range, but it's rare that I fire to irritate snipers, for instance. I'll be jumping and ducking, and firing when I get closer. The heavy moves roughly twice as slowly when he's spun up; I feel that the time spent trying to mess up his shot, or distract enemies at range, is time much better spent getting close, so that you can KILL them, as opposed to tickling them.

However, it's very rare that I run out of ammo. I make sure to know where all of the ammo boxes on a level are, and I'll just fight my way over to them should I need some. I'm pretty attentive; I start to look for ammo when I get close to 100.




Additionally: I don't have a particularly strong opinion one way or another. It's an infrequently used slot for me, and so my opinions have less thought behind them than, say primary slots. However, you do present a number of good points here, and I think I might start using the KGB more and start looking to see if it makes any difference to my melee-lacking play style. Both of us can only discuss out of our own experience, and though we haven't talked about it extensively, it's clear that we both play heavy differently.