Intelligent Weapon Discussion #5: Scout's Secondary

Which weapon do you prefer to use in the Scout's Secondary Slot?

  • Pistol

    Points: 42 75.0%

  • Bonk! Atomic Punch

    Points: 10 17.9%

  • Crit-A-Cola

    Points: 4 7.1%
  • Total voters
    56
The pistol.

The simple fact is that none of the scouts primary weapons are good at long range, and the pistol gives you a long range weapon to use while running for health. The scout is really a hit-and-run class. I would know, that while I don't usually play scout, when I do, I get the best KDR when I hit-and-run. The pistol gives you a great ability to pick of people, or sentries, at a distance. I would rather kill a sentry than have to deal with it later.
 
Zeu5 said:
*facepalm*
I'm pretty sure EVERYBODY has that same opinion.
Click to expand...

Well, some people like to just run by sentries using the bonk, leaving it for after they have grabbed the intel, and then die halfway out of the courtyard on 2fort.
 
DRaGZ said:
Scout is my most played class, so I'll just keep it short and simple:

Scout may have the best capture speed, but by and large the Scout is designed to kill. That's his best job. In a 1-on-1 with any other class in the game, at the highest skill levels, the Scout will always win.

As a result, what helps the Scout most is a supplement to his firepower, and the Pistol does this the best. It add damage that will finish off an opponent when reloading is not an option (i.e. you're out of Scattergun or you were using the FAN and didn't finish the job right).

The Crit-A-Cola is somewhat useful, but its ability to have yourself hurt more makes you rely on using it in ambushes rather than direct combat. Just by having to rely on ambush, you already greatly limit the Scout's combat potential. It's just not very cost effective.

And Bonk! is only useful if you're playing constantly playing the Sentry-distractor Scout, which is an extremely niche role and can be filled by many other classes by themselves.
Click to expand...


Alright, so your argument is a good one, certainly, but there a few things I'd like to discuss here. Note that because the discussion is so one-sided here, I'm going to try to flip it around a little bit.

First thing is just a matter of absolutism that I'd like to get off my chest: in a 1 on 1 battle between scout and any other class, at the highest levels, scout will certainly not win every time, although he'll probably win more than half. The cases I can make here are for the heavy; any competent heavy with any kind of mouse sensitivity will negate the scout's speed. Even if they don't hit them with every bullet, the scout doesn't have a lot of health. Even if you get the jump on him, the odds are against you there. Scouts also may have trouble against solid soldiers, because they don't need to hit them dead on for their damage to work. I could probably make cases for most classes, but not all; demos, for instance, will lose 9 times out of 10 to a scout.

In any case, I think it's a little naive to suggest that one class will always beat all of the others in a one-on-one scenario; if that were the case, the game wouldn't be balanced, and everyone would be playing scout at the competitive level.


Now, as far as the actual subject of this discussion:


As far as the combat role of the scout, I think opscomm said it right. The scout, as far as I'm concerned, is a hit and run class. Scouts shouldn't be leading the charges, they should be flanking. I think because I believe pretty staunchly that a scout CANNOT take each class 1-on-1 with a good chance of winning, even assuming equal skill, the scout's best chance at doing well is flanking. For instance, in mesa, when your team has 4 points and are just coming around the corner to the hall with the windows, scouts probably shouldn't be coming through that narrow entrance with the whole rest of the team; they should be running through the vents to get to the room above spawn, or the at least the window room connected to the vents. This is so that they can get people from behind, pick on them when they're weak, and generally cause pain from where the enemy isn't expecting it.

This idea is reinforced by their mobility; just like the soldier, who is actually faster than the scout when played well, they are built to out-maneuver the enemy.


So, with this idea in our head, why NOT crit-a-cola? If you're dropping down from that area above spawn in mesa to get some people in the back, having 6 seconds of mini-crit, I would contend, will be more useful than having a pistol. Yes, you're more vulnerable; really more of a glass cannon then you already are. However, 6 seconds isn't all that long, and in practicing a hit-and-run style of play, you'd likely do well to pop off a few shots, and run away.

Bonk is a little harder to advocate for. I used it for a long time, and it's situational uses came up more than you'd expect. I have killed engineers with their own sentries, certainly, but what's MORE interesting is that I've blocked ubers. finding narrow passages is great for this, but even open spaces work, assuming you get up in their faces and block as many bullets as you can (in the case of pyros and heavies specifically). 6 seconds is a significant portion of 10, and generally speaking, if you do your job, you've wasted an uber pretty effectively.

To all of the pistol users, I have a question:

You argue that the lunchboxes are very situational, and I don't disagree with you. I think that they are. However, how often do you actually find yourself using your pistol? once a life? once every 2 lives?

Maybe your playstyle has adapted to incorporate it more, but generally, I like the idea of stealth. If I'm going to go harass some snipers, especially if I'm coming from another direction, I don't take out the pistol; I get right up close and personal, and shoot them in the back with the scattergun. same goes for most things. Plus, I find it rare (especially using hit-and-run tactics) that I run out of ammo on the main gun. I'm constantly reloading, and I don't fire until I know I'm going to make contact. because I like to flank, it means I only tend to deal with one or two people at once; 6 bullets is more than enough to deal with that before running away to reload.

So, for these reasons, I rarely find myself using a pistol. It's useful for taking out long-range sentries, but the chances of that occurring are fairly situational; as situational, perhaps, as having to use bonk on a sentry, or having the opportunity to safely use crit-a-cola.


Edit:

Zeu5 said:
*facepalm*
I'm pretty sure EVERYBODY has that same opinion.
Click to expand...

Touche.
 
Last edited:
Dreadmaker said:
Alright, so your argument is a good one, certainly, but there a few things I'd like to discuss here. Note that because the discussion is so one-sided here, I'm going to try to flip it around a little bit.

First thing is just a matter of absolutism that I'd like to get off my chest: in a 1 on 1 battle between scout and any other class, at the highest levels, scout will certainly not win every time, although he'll probably win more than half. The cases I can make here are for the heavy; any competent heavy with any kind of mouse sensitivity will negate the scout's speed. Even if they don't hit them with every bullet, the scout doesn't have a lot of health. Even if you get the jump on him, the odds are against you there. Scouts also may have trouble against solid soldiers, because they don't need to hit them dead on for their damage to work. I could probably make cases for most classes, but not all; demos, for instance, will lose 9 times out of 10 to a scout.

In any case, I think it's a little naive to suggest that one class will always beat all of the others in a one-on-one scenario; if that were the case, the game wouldn't be balanced, and everyone would be playing scout at the competitive level.


Now, as far as the actual subject of this discussion:


As far as the combat role of the scout, I think opscomm said it right. The scout, as far as I'm concerned, is a hit and run class. Scouts shouldn't be leading the charges, they should be flanking. I think because I believe pretty staunchly that a scout CANNOT take each class 1-on-1 with a good chance of winning, even assuming equal skill, the scout's best chance at doing well is flanking. For instance, in mesa, when your team has 4 points and are just coming around the corner to the hall with the windows, scouts probably shouldn't be coming through that narrow entrance with the whole rest of the team; they should be running through the vents to get to the room above spawn, or the at least the window room connected to the vents. This is so that they can get people from behind, pick on them when they're weak, and generally cause pain from where the enemy isn't expecting it.

This idea is reinforced by their mobility; just like the soldier, who is actually faster than the scout when played well, they are built to out-maneuver the enemy.


So, with this idea in our head, why NOT crit-a-cola? If you're dropping down from that area above spawn in mesa to get some people in the back, having 6 seconds of mini-crit, I would contend, will be more useful than having a pistol. Yes, you're more vulnerable; really more of a glass cannon then you already are. However, 6 seconds isn't all that long, and in practicing a hit-and-run style of play, you'd likely do well to pop off a few shots, and run away.

Bonk is a little harder to advocate for. I used it for a long time, and it's situational uses came up more than you'd expect. I have killed engineers with their own sentries, certainly, but what's MORE interesting is that I've blocked ubers. finding narrow passages is great for this, but even open spaces work, assuming you get up in their faces and block as many bullets as you can (in the case of pyros and heavies specifically). 6 seconds is a significant portion of 10, and generally speaking, if you do your job, you've wasted an uber pretty effectively.

To all of the pistol users, I have a question:

You argue that the lunchboxes are very situational, and I don't disagree with you. I think that they are. However, how often do you actually find yourself using your pistol? once a life? once every 2 lives?

Maybe your playstyle has adapted to incorporate it more, but generally, I like the idea of stealth. If I'm going to go harass some snipers, especially if I'm coming from another direction, I don't take out the pistol; I get right up close and personal, and shoot them in the back with the scattergun. same goes for most things. Plus, I find it rare (especially using hit-and-run tactics) that I run out of ammo on the main gun. I'm constantly reloading, and I don't fire until I know I'm going to make contact. because I like to flank, it means I only tend to deal with one or two people at once; 6 bullets is more than enough to deal with that before running away to reload.

So, for these reasons, I rarely find myself using a pistol. It's useful for taking out long-range sentries, but the chances of that occurring are fairly situational; as situational, perhaps, as having to use bonk on a sentry, or having the opportunity to safely use crit-a-cola.


Edit:



Touche.
Click to expand...

The only class where in a high-skill 1 vs. 1 where the Scout does not have a massive advantage is against a Natashcha Heavy where they are both aware of each other's presence.

The only reason this is not a big point in TF2 is because the more players there are in a game the weaker an individual Scout becomes. 1 vs. 1 Scout is king. 6 vs. 6 Scout is still one of the big kids on the block, but is certainly far from overpowered. 12 vs. 12, the Scout is very difficult to use. 16 vs. 16, the Scout pretty much needs to lose himself in large fights or work solely on ambushes to do anything useful.

As for your other points:

A FAN Scout may have to depend on ambush, but a Scattergun Scout certainly does not. He has a big enough clip to sustain himself in a prolonged battle, and he is fast enough to stay in battle without taking too much damage.

Scouts should never force themselves in confined spaces. This is obvious. This is not a point. This is not a matter of "not engaging directly", it's a matter of "not negating your own advantages".

A Soldier is only faster than a Scout when he is using Gunboats, at which point he is only useful for flying towards a point and trying to defend it with only four rockets and an Equalizer.

Another inherent problem with the Crit-A-Cola is that it take a second to drink and that, to be most useful, you need to know that there is someone to ambush (you're not waiting for someone to pass, you're running towards someone's flank). As a result, in reality, it takes about three seconds to use the Cola effectively, by which the opportunity may have passed or you may be spotted.

Additionally, since the Scout's best range is up-close, the Crit-A-Cola is negated by the Scout's own ramp-up: it already does 175% damage at point blank, far more than the 135%. If you use the Cola then get into your optimal range, all you did was make yourself more vulnerable when caught. If you use the Cola then use it in medium range, then most of your pellets won't hit and you'll do only 40-50 per hit, which is only slightly stronger than regular medium-range damage. And if you use it from long-range, you're doing the whole thing wrong.

Bonk is even worse. It relegates you to a role that turns the Scout into a temporary distraction/roadblock. It turns the Scout into an overall weaker version of himself.

And yes, we use our Pistol all the time. In sustained firefight, which is what a Scattergun Scout is best for, it is invaluable when you run out of shells. In a failed ambush, as with the FAN, it is invaluable for finishing the job.
 
Last edited:
Bonk. Go invincible, pull out sandman and taunt kill. That's the only reason to play scout. Mostly because my computer lags if I move.
 
I go with Pistol. Being able to annoy or even kill enemies at range is critical for a class as light as the scout. As well, the ability to take out sentries can be priceless.
Bonk has uses in escaping from enemies or getting past their lines, but it is useless for actual attacks.
Crit a Cola is great if you try to ninja scout, especially with the FaN, but it is more hazardous to yourself than the enemies at range because their spam fire is alot more likely to do critical damage to you than yours is to them.
 
Deceptive_Yoshi said:
I like Crit a Cola

I can bonk heavies being healed by a medic and if the stun lasts long enough it'll only take 5-6 shots to bring him down. If your a good scout you won't and shouldn't even let those enemies hit you. In theory that is :P
Click to expand...

why do so many people confuse sadman and bonk energy drink....its not even the same weapon, nor same slot, nor similar effect PEOPLE NEED OT LEARN TO READ....


also i play scout alot and i ALWAYS use pistol, sometimes if im just messing around i use bonk and when im feeling ambushy i go with crits which honestly i don;t thionk iv ever even gotten a kill useing crits cola

but the pistol is good because of its range and can deal a lot of damage if u hit them and at close range its almost as effective as the scatter guns its self
 
Am only 'confusing' it because of the "bonk" that appears over their head. So I like to say that I "bonk'd" them.

I sounds nicer than saying that I sandman'd you.
 
Dreadmaker said:
Alright, so your argument is a good one, certainly, but there a few things I'd like to discuss here. Note that because the discussion is so one-sided here, I'm going to try to flip it around a little bit.

First thing is just a matter of absolutism that I'd like to get off my chest: in a 1 on 1 battle between scout and any other class, at the highest levels, scout will certainly not win every time, although he'll probably win more than half. The cases I can make here are for the heavy; any competent heavy with any kind of mouse sensitivity will negate the scout's speed. Even if they don't hit them with every bullet, the scout doesn't have a lot of health. Even if you get the jump on him, the odds are against you there. Scouts also may have trouble against solid soldiers, because they don't need to hit them dead on for their damage to work. I could probably make cases for most classes, but not all; demos, for instance, will lose 9 times out of 10 to a scout.

In any case, I think it's a little naive to suggest that one class will always beat all of the others in a one-on-one scenario; if that were the case, the game wouldn't be balanced, and everyone would be playing scout at the competitive level.


Now, as far as the actual subject of this discussion:


As far as the combat role of the scout, I think opscomm said it right. The scout, as far as I'm concerned, is a hit and run class. Scouts shouldn't be leading the charges, they should be flanking. I think because I believe pretty staunchly that a scout CANNOT take each class 1-on-1 with a good chance of winning, even assuming equal skill, the scout's best chance at doing well is flanking. For instance, in mesa, when your team has 4 points and are just coming around the corner to the hall with the windows, scouts probably shouldn't be coming through that narrow entrance with the whole rest of the team; they should be running through the vents to get to the room above spawn, or the at least the window room connected to the vents. This is so that they can get people from behind, pick on them when they're weak, and generally cause pain from where the enemy isn't expecting it.

This idea is reinforced by their mobility; just like the soldier, who is actually faster than the scout when played well, they are built to out-maneuver the enemy.


So, with this idea in our head, why NOT crit-a-cola? If you're dropping down from that area above spawn in mesa to get some people in the back, having 6 seconds of mini-crit, I would contend, will be more useful than having a pistol. Yes, you're more vulnerable; really more of a glass cannon then you already are. However, 6 seconds isn't all that long, and in practicing a hit-and-run style of play, you'd likely do well to pop off a few shots, and run away.

Bonk is a little harder to advocate for. I used it for a long time, and it's situational uses came up more than you'd expect. I have killed engineers with their own sentries, certainly, but what's MORE interesting is that I've blocked ubers. finding narrow passages is great for this, but even open spaces work, assuming you get up in their faces and block as many bullets as you can (in the case of pyros and heavies specifically). 6 seconds is a significant portion of 10, and generally speaking, if you do your job, you've wasted an uber pretty effectively.

To all of the pistol users, I have a question:

You argue that the lunchboxes are very situational, and I don't disagree with you. I think that they are. However, how often do you actually find yourself using your pistol? once a life? once every 2 lives?

Maybe your playstyle has adapted to incorporate it more, but generally, I like the idea of stealth. If I'm going to go harass some snipers, especially if I'm coming from another direction, I don't take out the pistol; I get right up close and personal, and shoot them in the back with the scattergun. same goes for most things. Plus, I find it rare (especially using hit-and-run tactics) that I run out of ammo on the main gun. I'm constantly reloading, and I don't fire until I know I'm going to make contact. because I like to flank, it means I only tend to deal with one or two people at once; 6 bullets is more than enough to deal with that before running away to reload.

So, for these reasons, I rarely find myself using a pistol. It's useful for taking out long-range sentries, but the chances of that occurring are fairly situational; as situational, perhaps, as having to use bonk on a sentry, or having the opportunity to safely use crit-a-cola.


Edit:



Touche.
Click to expand...

Thinking about making a drop box post.

I suggest limiting characters in threads/replies to 2 million characters so I don't fall asleep halfway through scrolling through Dreadmaker's posts.
 
ToiletPastries said:
Thinking about making a drop box post.

I suggest limiting characters in threads/replies to 2 million characters so I don't fall asleep halfway through scrolling through Dreadmaker's posts.
Click to expand...
Or just forcing Dread to change his name to "tl:dr" :P
 
I fell asleep trying to find my way to your post Idol. Don't reply or I might spontaneously nap again.
 
Yeah, yeah... I write a lot of stuff. HOWEVER, I promise it's good stuff. If you care about the scout (or anything I comment on) It'll be an interesting read. If you don't, than it won't be.


I write to those who care; those who don't don't have to read it :p



However, for the record, I'd very much like to see a word count to posts ratio; I think Auto and I would have it locked down.
 
man, you guys make me want to start a poll:

Do you actually read Dreadmaker's posts, or do you see his name, look at the text wall, and ignore him? :p
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Saf
  • Sticky
Official eGO Minecraft Player Guide
Replies
1
Views
1K
Saf
Saf

Latest posts

Back
Top