A protoss build

[Cut Chem!st]

a 4 gate by itself is not all in at all. You may chose to cut probes to get upgrades but you can maintain constant unit production and probe production with 4 gates on 1 base.
And i'm diamond. Also, 4 gate by itself is also not a timing attack. A timing attack is timed with something, say zealot leg speed. Then you can call it a timing attack. A 4 gate can be tons of things, it's probably the most flexible build other than the terran 1/1/1 build. You can do a defensive 4 gate and expand. In no way is a 4 gate a timing attack, seeing as it's a build.. not an attack.

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Timing_Attack

Please see the definition of a timing attack, it's been around since brood war. It's a window in which your attack will do the most damage, either on the completion of an upgrade or a window in which an opponent is at a weakness because of things like teching. Don't repeat things day[9] says when you don't understand them.

Saying your diamond doesn't matter. Anyone that was D+ in ICCup is around 700~ (medium) diamond. It's still considered the lower leagues.

It is a 4 gate "push", which aims to do weaken your opponent enough to allow you to expand.

 

[Arnu]

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Timing_Attack

Please see the definition of a timing attack, it's been around since brood war. It's a window in which your attack will do the most damage, either on the completion of an upgrade or a window in which an opponent is at a weakness because of things like teching. Don't repeat things day[9] says when you don't understand them.

Saying your diamond doesn't matter. Anyone that was D+ in ICCup is around 700~ (medium) diamond. It's still considered the lower leagues.

Cool definition, does a 4 gate have anything to do with that? teching? weakness?

 

[Cut Chem!st]

Cool definition, does a 4 gate have anything to do with that? teching? weakness?

I already said, the zerg is in the transition into lair or being able to catch his expansion, and the terran will have a lesser amounts of units and upgrades (stim, combat, concussive) won't be completed.

Even the teamliquid guide is saying it's a semi-all in that requires you to do economical damage. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/4_Warpgate_Rush_(vs._Zerg)

If you played protoss you would have a much deeper understanding of the build, it sucks to lose your 4 gate army, so they have the ability to push back and crush your expansion, while your behind in your tech path by a good chunk.

 

[Arnu]

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Timing_Attack
It is a 4 gate "push", which aims to do weaken your opponent enough to allow you to expand.

Doesnt any push aim to weaken your opponent?

 

[Cut Chem!st]

Doesnt any push aim to weaken your opponent?

Not as much as a 4gate, that early in the game you don't have a heavy pool of minerals to lie back on when he decides to expand him self and counter attack. Having a few zealots against a push of marauders when their concussive finishes is basically gg. Even if he sat back for a bit, he's still at a big advantage being able to take his expansion, and being further ahead in teching, while you set on 4 gates you lost valuable time.

You can't just gather up another force off those gates, and push again and make it work, you need something else to come back ahead. Did you watch the daily on 4gating? I have to admit, I love all the small variations.

 

[Arnu]

I already said, the zerg is in the transition into lair or being able to catch his expansion, and the terran will have a lesser amounts of units and upgrades (stim, combat, concussive) won't be completed.

Even the teamliquid guide is saying it's a semi-all in that requires you to do economical damage. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/4_Warpgate_Rush_(vs._Zerg)

If you played protoss you would have a much deeper understanding of the build, it sucks to lose your 4 gate army, so they have the ability to push back and crush your expansion, while your behind in your tech path by a good chunk.

I havent even said what race i play. I dont know how you can assume i don't play protoss.
I played protoss up until a few weeks ago where i switched to zerg.
That guide is for a 4 warpgate rush. Like i said earlier, you can have an economical 4 gate build, nothing's forcing you to cut probes and make it an all in.

 

[Cut Chem!st]

I havent even said what race i play. I dont know how you can assume i don't play protoss.
I played protoss up until a few weeks ago where i switched to zerg.
That guide is for a 4 warpgate rush. Like i said earlier, you can have an economical 4 gate build, nothing's forcing you to cut probes and make it an all in.

I agree, I'm just saying a lot of people put a lot of forces into it (esp in the lower levels, where they cant recover), there are many variations that don't put you as far ahead but are safer, still a little behind teching.

I just assumed you played zerg, since you mentioned you nydus and stuff. I played protoss all throughout beta (got mid diamond in phase 2, plat in phase 1), then stupidly decided to start playing zerg the first day of retail to see if I would like them, and lost like 30 matches in a row, and haven't had time to play more 1v1s to boost it back up as toss because I've been teaching 2 of my friends how to play, and playing a million 2v2/3v3s with them, enjoyable to play with friends, but obviously not as skillful as 1v1s, at least lets you work on mechanics if you don't get t1 rushed :/

Eventually I'll just sit down and grind a ton of games out, but the league system is weird and the promotion system sometimes takes a long time, or a short time and even in some cases requires you to lose to get promoted.

 

[Arnu]

I've just recently got into a killer groove, playing 10-15 games a day compared to the 1-5 i used to play when i was silver-plat. It gets 20x more fun when you're playing against diamond level players, I've even beat some of the iCCup admins. Lol

I've gone insane from any team game in sc2.. It's always a t1 rush i've found. Nearly impossible to stop when it's 2x/3x/4x the ammount you'd have at your front door in 1v1's =/

I recently got together with my sc2 group and suggested just playing 1v1's between the 3 of us instead of doing team games seeing as i rage too much in them ^^

 

[Cut Chem!st]

I've just recently got into a killer groove, playing 10-15 games a day compared to the 1-5 i used to play when i was silver-plat. It gets 20x more fun when you're playing against diamond level players, I've even beat some of the iCCup admins. Lol

I've gone insane from any team game in sc2.. It's always a t1 rush i've found. Nearly impossible to stop when it's 2x/3x/4x the ammount you'd have at your front door in 1v1's =/

I recently got together with my sc2 group and suggested just playing 1v1's between the 3 of us instead of doing team games seeing as i rage too much in them ^^

Yeah.. it's much more fun just doing practice in house games (once your friends are good enough to put up a fight), fun to mix in some brood war map ports (love how much bigger they are, encourages macro a lot more) or just some well made melee maps made by ICcup, and the mapping communities from teamliquid etc (much larger maps).

I've played like 200+ 2v2/3v3s, and basically carried my friends. The fun I get out of it is being able to teach them, and they're my friends so anything we do will be fun. Plus, once they understand the game better we can talk about it more, and play inhouse and practice, and I'll have a zerg and terran practice partner that will let me train against certain builds that I ask them to do.

Once they feel comfortable, I'll be playing ~20 games a day in 1v1 like I did in beta. I know what your saying about the fun level going up against diamond. Diamond everyone knows strong builds, are confident and don't try random cheese as much. So games become much more macro oriented (reaching like 4 bases each), not that I didn't scout some random cheese. Which makes you improve much more, since once those cheese's get figure out and the map pool bigger, they may be diamond now, but they'll be at the bottom for a long time while the people that actually tried to learn, instead of played for points jumps extremely far in skill. (These people would probably take a year to hit D level in iccup, since their mechanics are so bad, but they can cheese on tiny maps). Just really miss the epic feel of bw maps.

Once I figured out I didn't like zerg and went back to protoss I didn't lose a game till I started facing a mix of diamond players (which im proud to lose to, since they beat me with superior mechanics and captalized on my mistakes), but it still puts you against some gold-plat that try to end the game super fast, and makes me hesitate to hit the 1v1 button. If I just started in diamond I'd be having way more fun. Plus the lower leagues are WAY more bm, always extending games way past they should be. I mean, I kill all of his workers, yet he still thinks he'll win by walling everything off with cannons, just to lose 20mins later. Diamond they would have gged out.

 

[Arnu]

Yeah.. it's much more fun just doing practice in house games (once your friends are good enough to put up a fight), fun to mix in some brood war map ports (love how much bigger they are, encourages macro a lot more) or just some well made melee maps made by ICcup, and the mapping communities from teamliquid etc (much larger maps).

I've played like 200+ 2v2/3v3s, and basically carried my friends. The fun I get out of it is being able to teach them, and they're my friends so anything we do will be fun. Plus, once they understand the game better we can talk about it more, and play inhouse and practice, and I'll have a zerg and terran practice partner that will let me train against certain builds that I ask them to do.

Once they feel comfortable, I'll be playing ~20 games a day in 1v1 like I did in beta. I know what your saying about the fun level going up against diamond. Diamond everyone knows strong builds, are confident and don't try random cheese as much. So games become much more macro oriented (reaching like 4 bases each), not that I didn't scout some random cheese. Which makes you improve much more, since once those cheese's get figure out and the map pool bigger, they may be diamond now, but they'll be at the bottom for a long time while the people that actually tried to learn, instead of played for points jumps extremely far in skill. (These people would probably take a year to hit D level in iccup, since their mechanics are so bad, but they can cheese on tiny maps). Just really miss the epic feel of bw maps.

Once I figured out I didn't like zerg and went back to protoss I didn't lose a game till I started facing a mix of diamond players, but it still puts you against some gold-plat that try to end the game super fast, and makes me hesitate to hit the 1v1 button. If I just started in diamond I'd be having way more fun.

Yeah, you also get some really nice timed attacks and some crazy unit control. I'm personally a macro oriented player at diamond ~800 zerg. the only think that makes me hate 1v1 is zvz.. it's so horrible..
Despite what every zerg says, i like zvt.

 

[Cut Chem!st]

Yeah, you also get some really nice timed attacks and some crazy unit control. I'm personally a macro oriented player at diamond ~800 zerg. the only think that makes me hate 1v1 is zvz.. it's so horrible..
Despite what every zerg says, i like zvt.

The skill ceiling on zvz is terrible, it's about who can not get hit by a baneling and lose all of their zerglings. And after that, who can get more mutas out. Or someone rushes roaches, then either finishes it there or gets destroyed by mutas.

 

[Arnu]

The skill ceiling on zvz is terrible, it's about who can not get hit by a baneling and lose all of their zerglings. And after that, who can get more mutas out. Or someone rushes roaches, then either finishes it there or gets destroyed by mutas.

And that's it. Nothing more. I hate it so, so much. I almost want to take a page from Cella and ask for rock paper scissors instead of playing a zvz

 

[Cut Chem!st]

And that's it. Nothing more. I hate it so, so much. I almost want to take a page from Cella and ask for rock paper scissors instead of playing a zvz

Hopefully it will change with the maps, or introduction of new units in expansions. Bw the maps you could expand away from the enemy, and they can't rush in with zerglings since the rush distance is around a minute to main/natural instead of like 20 seconds to your natural (steppes -.-, which makes you expand toward your opponent). And then, it was all about who could macro better, which I like, seeing like 3 hatch muta, since zerg is a macro race.

You'll really enjoy once they update the maps since you like macro, you will win way more games than you do now, they have like 14 places to expand instead of 7 or 8 and increased rush, since zerg really need that fast hatch.

 

[Arnu]

Hopefully it will change with the maps, or introduction of new units in expansions. Bw the maps you could expand away from the enemy, and they can't rush in with zerglings since the rush distance is around a minute to main/natural instead of like 20 seconds to your natural (steppes -.-, which makes you expand toward your opponent). And then, it was all about who could macro better, which I like, seeing like 3 hatch muta, since zerg is a macro race.

You'll really enjoy once they update the maps since you like macro, you will win way more games than you do now, they have like 14 places to expand instead of 7 or 8 and increased rush, since zerg really need that fast hatch.

yup. I'm excited.
Any 4 player map cross position is an 85% guaranteed win for me since i can just macro like a baller.

 

[Cut Chem!st]

yup. I'm excited.
Any 4 player map cross position is an 85% guaranteed win for me since i can just macro like a baller.

God, it feels like an entirely different game playing a nice map like LT or Meta on cross positions, even though those maps are still relatively small, it's expanding away and the rush isn't as bad as a lot of maps, so it seems to capture a lot more epic games, making me want to keep playing.

Delta is alright to I guess, longer distance than some others, just not a big fan of the middle or expansions

Desert oasis will be awesome once they add in the rocks, I already like it because of how long it takes to get ground troops to their base, still not like bw long, but still long enough for some epic games, and basically people needing a different strat for the map. 2 gates and 6 pools aren't going to work.. Short air distance tends to get aggravating though if your against fast banshee or void.

Also, once the maps expand we'll get much more macro oriented builds. You could get away with things like 12 nexus then gateway, or 14 cc then raxx and still be safe. Along with safer fast expands with forge etc.

 

[Arnu]

God, it feels like an entirely different game playing a nice map like LT or Meta on cross positions, even though those maps are still relatively small, it's expanding away and the rush isn't as bad as a lot of maps, so it seems to capture a lot more epic games.

Delta is alright to I guess, longer distance than some others, just not a big fan of the middle or expansions

Desert oasis will be awesome once they add in the rocks, I already like it because of how long it takes to get ground troops to their base, still not like bw long, but still long enough for some epic games, and basically people needing a different strat for the map. 2 gates and 6 pools aren't going to work.. Short air distance tends to get aggravating though if your against fast banshee or void.

Also, once the maps expand we'll get much more macro oriented builds. You could get away with things like 12 nexus then gateway, or 14 cc then raxx and still be safe. Along with safer fast expands with forge etc.

Yeah, these things also all come in time. I've seen terrans fe on lt and surprisingly be able to hold off a 1 base opponent fairly well.

 

[Cut Chem!st]

Yeah, these things also all come in time. I've seen terrans fe on lt and surprisingly be able to hold off a 1 base opponent fairly well.

Yeah, what confuses me though is there is maps like crossfire.

That came with the game, are in your maps by blizzard, is a bw port with large distances yet they don't include it in ladder.

Also, I like that all the cliffs have ramps, like good pro maps so you can't get randomly dropped and not do anything since they're on a cliff.

 

[Arnu]

Yeah, what confuses me though is there is maps like crossfire.

That came with the game, are in your maps by blizzard, is a bw port with large distances yet they don't include it in ladder.

Also, I like that all the cliffs have ramps, like good pro maps so you can't get randomly dropped and not do anything since they're on a cliff.

God that map just makes me smile every time. I heard they're adding new maps to the ladder pool in 1.1 so maybe ones like that will be added. I hope atleast..

 

[Cut Chem!st]

God that map just makes me smile every time. I heard they're adding new maps to the ladder pool in 1.1 so maybe ones like that will be added. I hope atleast..

Have you played it? Every chance I get to play a custom melee I choose it, makes the game feel like it has so much potential and makes me just want to play it over and over. Could spend hours playing games on it.

Sc1 had terrible maps in the beginning, and the games were terribly short like now and no where near the caliber of todays games. If the maps never evolved, the game wouldn't be where it is today. The only thing that changes balance in bw now is the maps.

Sad thing is, LT even back then had a million changes and was still considered bad. Now it's one of the best maps we have to play in ladder.

 

[SigSauer]

Yeah maybe you can teach me a few things about Zerg. That is by far my worst race.