TF2 Weekly: Heavy's Melee - Boxing Bonanza!

Kamon

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TF2 Weekly​
Boxing Bonanza!​
Monday, January 31st of 2011​
Heavy_Decal_Black.png
Hey everyone, it's Kamon here for the second TF2 Weekly 2011, and as per popular request, we're going to toss the five melee weapons belonging to the Heavy into the ring and see how they duke it out.

Again, just a reminder--I am an average TF2 player, not an expert by any means. Anything written is purely opinion.


Fists
Backpack_Fists.png

Base: 65 (59 to 72)
Mini-Crit: 88
Critical hit: 195
Overview:
The base melee for the Heavy, with the gloves thrown off (except for his fingerless gloves, I guess), the Heavy's base fists are not the greatest weapon on their own. Just about every other melee weapon he owns outclasses the fists. They're only slightly faster than the K.G.B.s (along with everything else he can equip), and like all of his melee equips (or lack thereof in this case) they're not especially fast. So one asks themselves, why would they just go out with their bare fists?

Heavytaunt3.PNG


Showdown, the Heavy's sole taunt kill, is only usable with his bare fists--and is arguably the BEST taunt kill in the game. It fires an invisible bullet in the direction of wherever you're aiming, and it even has rather decent range--Its length is about equal to nine classes standing in a line directly in front of the Heavy. Throwing in his massive health, he'll probably get a chance to get a kill with it if timed right, too. The Showdown has an attack interval of 3 seconds, so time it right.

...With that said, the Showdown is basically the only reason I ever pull out my bare fists. I don't personally recommend them otherwise.

Accompanying side weapons: Any really. If you're switching to your bare fists, you probably don't have a shotgun handy, and the other secondaries are more of a pick-your-flavor thing.

The Killing Gloves of Boxing
250px-BluKGB.png

Base: 65 (59 to 72)
Mini-Crit: 88
Critical hit: 195
Overview:
The first unlockable melee for the Heavy. It packs the same amount of punch (no pun intend... well, okay, a little) as the Fists, but it's slightly slower. What gives? The nifty little bonus afterwards; Score a kill with the K.G.B.s and get critical hits for five seconds.

The critical hit bonus, lasting five seconds, is surprisingly long when you're using your K.G.B.s and you're surrounded by confused enemies by the flailing Russian in the middle of them. Which is great, but that's not all the bonus is limited to--It crosses over to your other weapons, which includes the Shotgun and your miniguns.

For Natascha and the Brass Beast, you probably won't even have them revved up in time to enjoy the critical hits. The Minigun itself isn't much better either, but it doesn't take many critical hits from one to take something down. If you have the Shotgun as your secondary, however, you can definitely get several critical hits in without impeding your movement speed, so it's definitely worth consideration.


The Gloves of Running Urgently

250px-RED_Gloves_of_Running_Urgently.png

Base: 33 (29 to 37 damage)
Mini-Crit: 43
Critical hit: 96
Overview:
Here's something interesting here--the Heavy's melee playing a more supportive role.

The G.R.U. increases the Heavy's running speed by 30%, making him virtually identical in speed to the Engineer, Pyro and Sniper. While this may not seem like much, consider this: The Heavy's base running speed is 77% 'normal' speed, which is 100% for the above classes. The G.R.U. boost him up to just nearly 100%, which means the arguably most powerful and high-HP class is now running around at an alarmingly faster speed.

...At a cost: 6 health per second is loss while the G.R.U. are equipped. With a Medic, knowledge of health packs in the level, or even your trusty Sandvich, it doesn't take much to recover.

Granted, it's really worth mentioning that the Heavy's melee has always been more of an 'extra' slot--Worth tossing out more for fun rather than for strategy. The shotgun generally outdoes most of the Heavy's melee equipment in general considering his low speed, but the Sandvich is often too good to pass up, and thus its popularity has risen.

With the G.R.U., you can get into battle a lot faster, but the G.R.U. does less damage than all of his other weapons by quite a bit. Unless you have the shotgun as your secondary (which you may not want due to the HP loss with movement and the lack of a healing option), you might find yourself in trouble if you're unable to draw your Minigun in time to fight back. On the bright side, you've got a better chance of fleeing now.

The Warrior's Spirit
250px-BLU_Warrior%27s_Spirit.png

Base: 85 (73 to 97 damage)
Mini-Crit: 112
Critical hit: 250
Overview:
At the cost of 20 HP, you can deal 30% more damage with your Melee. Which, I guess, is somewhat fair. However, I'm not a big fan of the cons here. Consider this: How often are you going to have your melee out rather than your minigun? Probably not more often than you should.

Like I mentioned the Milkman set in my overview of the Shortstop last week, I should go over the the Hibernating Bear set. With the Warrior's Spirit, the Brass Beast, and the Buffalo Steak Sandvich, the Heavy gets a 5% critical hit resistance bonus.

...Which is exactly as minor as it sounds. Granted, the Heavy has minor health, but even so--that means a 200 damage attack will do 190. I guess it helps you deal with headshots while fully overhealed, but--

Wait, what's that? You have 20 less HP and can't survive a fully powered headshot anyways? Yeah. It's kinda like that. It's worth mentioning that with the Buffalo Steak Sandvich, you take mini-crits and have less HP, but you move a lot faster and deal 112 damage per hit, while running around fairly fast... which would help if you weren't so big. I can't say I recommend the Warrior's Spirit, or even the set, at all.

The Fists of Steel
250px-Fists_of_Steel.png

Base: 65 (59 to 72 damage)
Mini-Crit: 88
Critical hit: 195
Overview:
It deals the same damage as the basic Fists at the same speed. And yet, it is possibly the best offensive and defensive weapon in the Heavy's arsenal.

The Fists of Steel, when equipped, cause the Heavy to take 60% less damage from ranged attacks (read: A LOT), while taking double damage from melee sources.

A fully-powered headshot from a Sniper Rifle will do 180 damage at most. A direct hit from a Crit Rocket will deal only 108. The Scout's bat will... actually... hurt a lot, with a crit swing dealing over 200 damage to you, never mind the speed of it.

But that's what you have guns for.

You can literally lure a sentry away, or step in front of your medic and take oncoming fire as he prepares his Ubercharge. The Fists of Steel make the Heavy a monster to take out. You can sprint across a field watched by snipers and easily make it to the health pack on the other side... Or hell, go run up to the Snipers and just punch them out--or even laugh as they switch to their Melee weapons and you're already revving up your minigun!

I'll recommended either the Sandvich or the Shotgun as your secondary. With the Sandvich, you play the Fists of Steel as defensively as possible--tossing it on the ground to quickly heal half your health back while on the run, and hammering unsuspecting opponents before they can switch to their melee weapons. With the shotgun, you simply charge your enemy or start swinging until they draw their Melee weapon--and then load their face with lead.

I love these things. They are by far my favorite weapons for the Heavy to be released since the Sandvich, and they change how I play the Heavy now.



That just about sums up the Heavy's assortment of melee weapons. If you have a suggestion for next Monday's TF2 Weekly, just drop a message in the thread. Notice any mistakes, or just want to share your opinion? Drop a message in the thread!

Thanks to the folks at Team Fortress Wiki for the statistics.

Thanks to the following users for pointing out my silly mistakes:
Yutaka
Thereven
 
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You know, there is so many weapons in TF2 now that I don't think I've ever actually tried the Fists of Steel. I'll have to try 'em out next time.

I've enjoyed reading these, keep it up.
 
A fully-powered headshot from a Sniper Rifle will do 270 damage at most. A direct hit from a Crit Rocket will deal only 162. The Scout's bat will... actually... hurt a lot, with a crit swing dealing over 200 damage to you, never mind the speed of it.

Psst, check your math... 60% less damage means you only take 40% damage. Full headshot is 450 damage, meaning with the gloves you only take 180 damage. Crit rocket = 108 damage.

And these are my favorite heavy weapon ever. As soon as I get a name tag, they are going to be named "+1 Gloves of Trolling"
 
Psst, check your math... 60% less damage means you only take 40% damage. Full headshot is 450 damage, meaning with the gloves you only take 180 damage. Crit rocket = 108 damage.

And these are my favorite heavy weapon ever. As soon as I get a name tag, they are going to be named "+1 Gloves of Trolling"

Thank you for that, Thereven, I accidently reduced damaged by 40% instead of 60% and got those mixed up. Fixed it and credited it to you.

And my Fists of Steel are totally named the 'Gloves of Not Dying' now.
 
Pow! Haha!!! Ultimate embaressment for those foolish enough to try camping with their backs to a place I can access!!!
Its especially good when you have more than one person, because they sometimes don't realize what happened until they are next XD
 
Another tip is to pair the buffalo's sandwich's mini-crits with K.G.B. for taking out a small confused room :-D, after you kill someone with the mini crits, you get normal crits :-D

My new favorites are also the fists of steel. The first time I used them, I tanked a level 3 sentry that was hard to get to with a medic and punched it to death before I could die, after running the whole way to it (the medic helped obviously). It was actually at the end of the little vent thing that drops you down to A in Black Mesa.

Unfortunately, many people think the Fists of Steel are OP so Valve may be nerfing it, which would make me sad.
 
Well, keeping with my analyzing this with the Competitive 6v6 Scene in mind, this is an instance where we need to keep in mind that both the GRU and the Fists of Steel have been banned from competitive play (going off of CEVO rules). With both those bans it leaves just the Fists, KGB, and Warrior's Spirit and its not really that much of a contest. KGB is the most useful generally, granted the fists and Warrior's Spirit will give you enhanced melee abilities in comparison, the Warrior's Spirit health loss makes it unacceptable since your job is typically to soak up damage that would normally be directed at your team's Medic or the other classes. The Fists aren't bad, but the KGB's crits are generally more useful especially since you often won't have a chance to make full use of the Fists' faster attack speed.

For next week: Medic's primary discussion would be very interesting, all three are easily viable choices both in public servers and 6v6 :)
 
Well, keeping with my analyzing this with the Competitive 6v6 Scene in mind, this is an instance where we need to keep in mind that both the GRU and the Fists of Steel have been banned from competitive play (going off of CEVO rules).

CEVO rules are hilarious...

Competitive Players - "Guys, guys, there's a new item out that changes the game slightly!"

CEVO Rulemakers - "Well, rather than taking into account the dynamic nature of the game we decided to form a competitive league around, we'd better just ban the thing."

Competitive Players - "Good work, we'd have to think up new strategies otherwise. That would hurt our thinkin' bones. Back to spamming rockets!"

CEVO Rulemakers - "Yes, we are quite good at our jobs, drinks all around."

Everyone Else - "I sure do love these new items that make this game more interesting to play."
 
Negative, generally the only items that are banned are the ones that either give an unfair advantage to a team or player or those that are released immediately before or during league play. The weapons that are banned due to being "unfair" are also generally perfectly fine for normal play in public servers, but after playing against them in your usual 6v6 setting, you would understand why they are banned.

An example of a weapon that is currently banned in League play that is completely fine for normal play is Natascha. Natascha is banned simply because it robs players of its movement. Now, I could go type for a couple minutes explaining this ban, but I think that ibuprofen (member of Ubercharged.net) can explain it better:
ibuprofen said:
Also, for those who don’t agree with Natascha being banned, think of it like this. There are 5 combat classes on a team of 6. One of them is running Natascha. This player has begun to attack an enemy. This enemy’s mobility is now non-existent. Not only can they not escape, but they are a piss easy target for the 4 other players on a team. Therefore, imagine being the enemy when a single bullet begins a cycle of helplessness.
TF2 is a game of momentum and mobility. If one player can destroy the mobility of every class on the enemy team, that team will probably take mid and gain major momentum. This is a major game breaker. Note how every class (not Medic obviously) that is standard in comp play is extremely maneuverable or has a method of gaining instant mobility.
laerin said:
It’s been mentioned time and time again how the Natascha’s slowdown leaves players completely at the mercy of others. The scout, soldier and demoman are used instead of say two heavies becuase of their speed and versatility. The heavy is meant to be a tank with a high DPS and large amount of health but by trading off it’s speed. But the Natascha robs other classes of their speed and manueverability; the most important thing they have over the heavy. A soldier cannot rocket jump away. A scout cannot run away – or even get close to him. In one-on-one situations, unless you are right beside a means of escape, your two options are either to kill the heavy (the class with the higher DPS and health) or die. In most cases however, you will be a sitting duck to the other classes and your set of options will have dwindled by one.

I personally am not 100% sure why the GRU is banned, I assume its because the disadvantage to running a heavy normally is that you trade off his speed/maneuverability for high health and DPS, but the GRU eliminates this. Granted you lose some health, but the amount of health you lose is childs play with a medic around, so the only other disadvantage to the low melee damage. That being said, you will never melee as a heavy in 6v6, so it doesn't matter.

The Fists of Steel were banned because of the fact that they reduce your damage to ranged attacks by so much, and that is the only effective way of fighting in 6v6, so you are required to close to melee range to deal with the heavy and medic hiding behind him. The second you close to melee range and whip out your melee, you have sacrificed your mobility and many of your options and become an easy target for both Soldiers and Demomen meaning you die. Or what is more likely to happen, you close to melee range, heavy takes out his gun and you die. If you are a soldier, you're dead, demo, dead, medic, dead, the only class that could hope to survive that properly is a Scout, and they are at a severe disadvantage due to their low health in comparison with the heavy. Plus the earlier mentioned fact that you are then a sitting duck for the Soldiers and the Demoman.

Anyway, thats all I'll go into that issue for now, there is a clear cut reason for all the bans, and most of them stem from the fact that its 6v6, so some weapons that are completely viable in 12v12 or 16v16 are simply completely overpowered in 6v6 style matches.
 
Negative, generally the only items that are banned are the ones that either give an unfair advantage to a team or player or those that are released immediately before or during league play. The weapons that are banned due to being "unfair" are also generally perfectly fine for normal play in public servers, but after playing against them in your usual 6v6 setting, you would understand why they are banned.

I can understand the first part, being banned temporarily until people find the weapon. But Natasha has been out for what... three years now? Now all it boils down to is CEVO people complaining about a weapon because it changes the game and forces them to do something different during their matches.

CEVO rules are balanced around the standard teams: 2 soldiers, 1 demo, 1 medic, 2 scouts (or 1 scout and 1 something else).

If a weapon would change that team setup, then they ban it. It is not about being unfair at all. Every single weapon out there has a counter. People who play in 6v6 leagues don't want to change how their teams are made though. Nobody wants to try going 5 heavies and 1 medic or anything different than the regular setup because they are too comfortable with what they always do.

CEVO rules are all about keeping the status quo. God forbid they try anything different.
 
I can understand the first part, being banned temporarily until people find the weapon. But Natasha has been out for what... three years now? Now all it boils down to is CEVO people complaining about a weapon because it changes the game and forces them to do something different during their matches.

CEVO rules are balanced around the standard teams: 2 soldiers, 1 demo, 1 medic, 2 scouts (or 1 scout and 1 something else).

If a weapon would change that team setup, then they ban it. It is not about being unfair at all. Every single weapon out there has a counter. People who play in 6v6 leagues don't want to change how their teams are made though. Nobody wants to try going 5 heavies and 1 medic or anything different than the regular setup because they are too comfortable with what they always do.

CEVO rules are all about keeping the status quo. God forbid they try anything different.

The original incarnation of Natascha had no real counter. I mean, once you're stuck in it, then what?

Have you watched 6 vs. 6s with Natascha in it? It degenerates into a fatty game and it's absurdly slow and boring. They banned it because it just wasn't fun.

Same thing for the Wrangler. It slowed down the game immensely and just wasn't fun.

It's the same reason they limited Demoman to one. Two Demomen can lock down an entire map, which leads to waiting around for ubers. It was slow and boring.

Pretty much everything they've banned they've done so because it slows the game down and it gets boring. In pub games, where winning isn't really that big a deal, things that slow down the game are just whatever. But in competitive games, where people will do EVERYTHING in their power to make sure they win, these game-slowing tactics ruin the game. If they were kept in, the comp scene would essentially die due to boredom.

These things aren't banned without a considerable amount of thought.
 
The original incarnation of Natascha had no real counter. I mean, once you're stuck in it, then what?
Heavy, Sniper and spy are all counters for a natasha using heavy.

Hell, a blutsauger can counter the old natasha heavy. Taking potshots from around the corner with rockets is a counter. Demo stickies are a counter. There are so many ways to counter it that there is no reason to fear it in a 6v6.

As for slowing down matches? Big damn deal. At least they'd be more interesting than the spamfests that they are now.
 
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Heavy, Sniper and spy are all counters for a natasha using heavy.

Hell, a blutsauger can counter the old natasha heavy. Taking potshots from around the corner with rockets is a counter. Demo stickies are a counter. There are so many ways to counter it that there is no reason to fear it in a 6v6.

As for slowing down matches? Big damn deal. At least they'd be more interesting than the spamfests that they are now.

Spies are next to useless in comp matches since everyone knows where everyone is at all times.

Any decent Heavy will not take a path in the line of sight of a Sniper.

And the "Heavy countering a Heavy" was exactly the problem I was talking about. It's like saying you should counter a Sniper with another Sniper and then end up in a Sniper war, it's a counter-productive waste of a slot.

The old Natascha Heavy prevented you from strafing. Once you're hit by a bullet, you can't move. A Blutsauger Medic can't strafe, therefore he'll die very quickly. Corner-popping doesn't work because you get hit as soon as you peek out.

Saying Demo stickies are a counter is like saying the tactical nuke in Modern Warfare is a counter to the enemy team. It's an all-purpose weapon that works well at medium range, enough said. Doesn't change the fact that it was death for the Demo once the Heavy caught him in the Natascha.

And if you've actually seen a true 6 vs. 6, you know it's far from a spamfest. Pretty much every rocket and grenade thrown has a specific target or purpose in mind. Calling competitive 6 vs. 6 a spamfest is an absurd notion, especially considering we play in stuff like 2Fort and Black Mesa.

Not to mention, Natascha probably made Heavy the easiest class to play in the entire game, yet made him amongst the most powerful. The skill/risk to reward ratio with the original Natascha was absurdly lopsided, nobody likes losing because the other guy used an easy button.

EDIT: Spies are not as useless in comps as they used to be due to the more aggressive nature of the metagame, but you'd be lucky to backstab a Heavy even once per match with the Spy in comp.
 
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Spies are next to useless in comp matches since everyone knows where everyone is at all times.
Spies in competitive matches do not run around dressed as the enemy team hoping to sneak by. They cloak, they wait till the team is busy and then they take out all targets of opportunity.

Any decent Heavy will not take a path in the line of sight of a Sniper.
Any decent sniper will not sit in regular sniper positions hoping someone will run past the area they're watching. They will move around to change their line of sight to put others in the crosshairs.

And the "Heavy countering a Heavy" was exactly the problem I was talking about. It's like saying you should counter a Sniper with another Sniper and then end up in a Sniper war, it's a counter-productive waste of a slot.

How is this any different than the regular matches where you have soldier and demo countering soldier and demo?

The old Natascha Heavy prevented you from strafing. Once you're hit by a bullet, you can't move. A Blutsauger Medic can't strafe, therefore he'll die very quickly. Corner-popping doesn't work because you get hit as soon as you peek out.

The old natasha heavy was also vulnerable due to lack of damage output. At medium range the blutsauger medic can kill a natasha heavy before being killed by one. At long range the medic will win every time. He didn't need to strafe around and hope the heavy misses him, he can sit there toe-to-toe and outlast the heavy.

And if you've actually seen a true 6 vs. 6, you know it's far from a spamfest. Pretty much every rocket and grenade thrown has a specific target or purpose in mind. Calling competitive 6 vs. 6 a spamfest is an absurd notion, especially considering we play in stuff like 2Fort and Black Mesa.
Spamfest: n. A tf2 match where the majority of damage done is by projectiles (usually explosives) aimed in the direction of the enemy.

Saying Demo stickies are a counter is like saying the tactical nuke in Modern Warfare is a counter to the enemy team. It's an all-purpose weapon that works well at medium range, enough said. Doesn't change the fact that it was death for the Demo once the Heavy caught him in the Natascha.

Not to mention, Natascha probably made Heavy the easiest class to play in the entire game, yet made him amongst the most powerful. The skill/risk to reward ratio with the original Natascha was absurdly lopsided, nobody likes losing because the other guy used an easy button.
So, it's ok to be overpowered as long as it's a demo or soldier and not a heavy? The old natasha heavy was dangerous only at medium-close range. Beyond that range they were a nuisance. Demos and soldiers remain dangerous at any range, moreso for soldiers than demos.

-

The only part of your argument that still logically holds true is that they didn't like that natasha adds a slowing effect on people. That's it. It was a great counter for scouts and a nuisance for everyone else. Scouts in CEVO complained because it made them have to avoid any heavies that used it, so they banned the weapon. Go check the forums for yourself.

Any weapon that threatens the status quo set in Season 1 is banned. That's all there is to it. They run their league based on how the game was three years ago.
 
Spies in competitive matches do not run around dressed as the enemy team hoping to sneak by. They cloak, they wait till the team is busy and then they take out all targets of opportunity.


Any decent sniper will not sit in regular sniper positions hoping someone will run past the area they're watching. They will move around to change their line of sight to put others in the crosshairs.



How is this any different than the regular matches where you have soldier and demo countering soldier and demo?



The old natasha heavy was also vulnerable due to lack of damage output. At medium range the blutsauger medic can kill a natasha heavy before being killed by one. At long range the medic will win every time. He didn't need to strafe around and hope the heavy misses him, he can sit there toe-to-toe and outlast the heavy.


Spamfest: n. A tf2 match where the majority of damage done is by projectiles (usually explosives) aimed in the direction of the enemy.


So, it's ok to be overpowered as long as it's a demo or soldier and not a heavy? The old natasha heavy was dangerous only at medium-close range. Beyond that range they were a nuisance. Demos and soldiers remain dangerous at any range, moreso for soldiers than demos.

-

The only part of your argument that still logically holds true is that they didn't like that natasha adds a slowing effect on people. That's it. It was a great counter for scouts and a nuisance for everyone else. Scouts in CEVO complained because it made them have to avoid any heavies that used it, so they banned the weapon. Go check the forums for yourself.

Any weapon that threatens the status quo set in Season 1 is banned. That's all there is to it. They run their league based on how the game was three years ago.

Everyone complained, not just Scouts, and not just comp. It's pretty obvious across the board that Natascha was an unfun, overpowered, and boring weapon.

And the true danger of Natascha wasn't that Natascha locked you down so you could keep shooting you. It was that Natascha locked you down so that his entire team can keep shooting you. It was ridiculous. The only people who liked Natascha at all were people who were unreasonably biased towards Heavies.

The Wrangler is the new Natascha, except it also happens to destroy map balance in the process. Whoopee.

EDIT: Your definition of spamfest is illogical. Spam implies you throw crap around with no real purpose, not that explosives are being used extensively.

Also, why do you care so much about how the comp people play? It's not like they come down and dictate how you play, I never understood why people get so angry at comp for banning weapons.

EDIT EDIT: Also, Spies standing around, cloaking, not doing anything is completely counter-productive given the fast pace of competitive play. At best, it's a one-time-only kamikaze attack that will never work again.
 
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Alright guys, I know I kind of fed the fire on this one but we need to settle down at the moment.

Competitive 6v6 is played one way, and 16v16 another, what works in one is not necessarily viable in the other. Lets leave it at that, they're just like different game modes, some people like payload, some CP, some like 6v6, some 16v16.

Now, if you would care to join me in Ventrilo sometime, I would be more than happy to have an in depth discussion on the differences between 6v6 Competitive and 16v16 Public and why I personally have the opinion that 6v6 is an overall more enjoyable experience. But as I said, they're separate game modes and I fully accept that each has their place and each has their own (very dedicated at times) following.
 
The fists of steel are so good it's insane, with the buffalo steak you can charge into a base, kill EVERYONE and leave with 100 HP to spare.
 
i usually use normal fists so i can try to get taunt kills as opportunities come up
 

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