DISCUSSION: Move Jail games out of Cell Block?

[Rogue Sniper]

1. There will be mass rebellions almost every round, making rebelling even more stale than it already is due to how easy it will become.

No there won't. Most of the time people rely on Texan who usually just goes for baiting CTs or another player to start the rebellion so they can come in and clean up.

CTs will actually have to use CT areas such as cat walks, guard towers, areas behind fences and glass windows. They'll actually have to smarten up and stop baiting. I've just seen so many rounds go down hill due to one not-so-bright CT who decided to be in an area they shouldn't have. Wardens will actually have to be more strict and keep a watchful eye for any threats such as those possibly with a gun, checking cells for any missing Ts and actually making sure all of the Ts are accounted for.

Rebelling is really stale when you can't do it at all, not because its too easy though after a while it can be if the CT's can't be smart enough to keep out of the Ts ways and make sure vents and what not aren't open. Mainly though its not easy with a decent team of CTs as Ive had it hard on many maps when the CTs are actually decent to above average to professional guards (we don't have teams of the last one like we used to).

2. Playing Ct will be become EVEN MORE difficult and boring than it already is when there are rebellions and you get killed during them.

You mean being a CT with a gun, secondary, and grenade isn't easy? You mean the bad CTs wont want to play thus allowing good CTs the chance to be able to play?

Good CTs prevent rebellions, its not tough. I've done it as a warden because I make sure CTs are covering any ways that are not the ways to the area I specified and they're not in areas that causes them to bait. I also make sure that I don't move the Ts unless they're shift walking or crouching thus preventing rebellions even more so.

If the Ts work as a team (You know like they did 3-4 years ago in Jail) then CTs will have a tougher chance to control them but not impossible as I have seen massive rebellions of 25 Ts fail horribly against a team of 12 CTs without one CT getting knifed and leaving just the 1 innocent T alive (they got an A for effort, but an F for execution) . But really the CTs who bait are the ones making it hard for the rest of their team not because Ts have to move around.

3. Jail will become unbalanced due to the amount of rebellions and it will overall be a matter of the Cts surviving every round.

Right now a majority of the reasons that CTs fail to win is because they bait and fail to use the areas designated for them. It isn't because Ts work as a team because I rarely see that anymore, but more a few who work together at best or because a Super Star Lone Ranger comes in and wipes the CTs before the rest of the Ts can do anything.

To be honest CTs have become so comfortable with keeping the Ts in cell blocks at times they forget to check if they're missing any, if any have guns then tell them to stack, or to check other entrances into cell block, etc to make sure they're not going to be snuck up on.

 

[Artinz]

Rogue, I honestly have no idea where you're coming from. The terrorists win every round, you may get an LR once every 5 rounds, IF THAT. Ts are almost never kept in cell block the way things are now. And CTs bait all of the time, that doesn't mean there should be rules made so that Ts can much more easily kill CTs. Honestly, the problems that you're saying are there, really aren't there. If anything, the game should be made easier for the CTs, because everyone is so afraid of being called a freekiller that they basically wait for a T to knife them before they shoot a T.

The Ts rebel almost every round, there is no reason to make it easier for that to happen. If there was an LR every single round, then I would understand why that would happen. But, ever since text based games were removed, Ts can rebel far too easily. Since we aren't discussing those games, there is no reason to make it easier for the Ts to do what they can already do easily.

 

[RedDragonKnight]

If anything, the game should be made easier for the CTs, because everyone is so afraid of being called a freekiller that they basically wait for a T to knife them before they shoot a T.

The game is already so extremely easy for CTs. The only thing is, it takes but 1 baiting CT to give the Ts an actual gun to ruin the round for everyone else. Also, CTs being afraid to shoot anyone or just choosing not to shoot anyone even if they know they are rebelling is not something that should be catered to. The CTs should not be rewarded for being bad and doing things that leave them exposed to being killed. This is 1 reason I made my guide, even if the people who would benefit from reading it probably don't read it.

The Ts rebel almost every round, there is no reason to make it easier for that to happen.

See above. It's because the CT player-base has degraded to the point where most CTs cannot aptly defend themselves. Not to mention wardens just give freedays, STs, and orders that they or their team cannot handle.

 

[Dot350]

So, the CTs are magically going to get better because cellblock games are banned? The same CTs will be baiting just now outside of cell block.


I don't get it, on one hand the problem is it is too hard for Ts to rebel, on the other hand the CTs are so bad that somehow this rule will fix it.

 

[Oberst]

I also disagree with this as well, I think certain games are good to play in the Cell block area, I think we need to focus on the Wardens who are making these choices though. A good warden is creative, and will know how to keep a round alive and fun. I just think we need to put more emphasis on showing people how they can make rounds a lot more fun and interesting. Outlawing games in the Cell Block would just be a waste in my opinion, but yeah I have played with certain wardens who are like that and only want to play games in the cell block but I think we should work on trying to teach them how to warden better.

 

[RedDragonKnight]

The same CTs will be baiting just now outside of cell block.

And those same CTs will get revoked for baiting so that stops happening.

 

[XavierB]

It seems like you guys that are agreeing think that the people that are playing jail these days will change because of this rule. They won't.

No there won't. Most of the time people rely on Texan who usually just goes for baiting CTs or another player to start the rebellion so they can come in and clean up.

Exacly, MOST of the time people rely on people like Texan who causes a LOT of rebellions, this will NOT change. If you've forgotten, the Ts receive guns, vents, chances to escape when the Cts are looking or aren't able to watch them, wait in a cell untill every leaves (which will be a much easier strategy since most of the players won't be in cell block) and then run to the armoury or vent and many other ways that AREN'T killing a baiting Ct.

CTs will actually have to use CT areas such as cat walks, guard towers, areas behind fences and glass windows. They'll actually have to smarten up and stop baiting. I've just seen so many rounds go down hill due to one not-so-bright CT who decided to be in an area they shouldn't have. Wardens will actually have to be more strict and keep a watchful eye for any threats such as those possibly with a gun, checking cells for any missing Ts and actually making sure all of the Ts are accounted for.

Again, Cts will NOT change, playing Ct will change though as I've stated previously. No matter if they've read Rdk's guide or not, the Cts will stay the same as they are today because Rdk's guide has been available for a while now and there are STILL baiting guards and such that make rebelling easy. You also just stated that you've seen many rounds go downhill due to baiting Cts, well this number will increase greatly because Cts are going to be caught in bad places and be knifed to death because that's what todays standard of Ct is like and you seem to not understand that. Also, the amount of cell checking you see today WILL NOT change making rebelling a piece of cake.

Rebelling is really stale when you can't do it at all, not because its too easy though after a while it can be if the CT's can't be smart enough to keep out of the Ts ways and make sure vents and what not aren't open.

Yeah and the Cts are going to stay "not smart enough" even after this rule will be set in place. They're not going to suddenly become great Cts like you seem to think. And I honestly think rebelling will still be somewhat easy even with a great set of Cts, because a gun in a stack can take out ast least 1-3 of you leaving guns laying around.

If the Ts work as a team (You know like they did 3-4 years ago in Jail) then CTs will have a tougher chance to control them but not impossible as I have seen massive rebellions of 25 Ts fail horribly against a team of 12 CTs without one CT getting knifed and leaving just the 1 innocent T alive (they got an A for effort, but an F for execution) . But really the CTs who bait are the ones making it hard for the rest of their team not because Ts have to move around.

The Ts are NOT going to work as a team, you know why? Because they just don't nowadays, that's not how jail is. Maybe it was like that 3-4 years ago but it's different today, you've got bad Cts to kill and get guns from plus many other rebelling oppertunites. And as an addition, the Ts will have even MORE chance to knife baiting Cts (which there will be) when they're being moved out of cell block and around the map. The Ts DO NOT need to work as a team now and they WILL NOT need to work as a team after this rule is set in place because rebelling will be easy. Also, today's standard of Ct wouldn't be able to hold off a 25 T rebellion. ._.

Right now a majority of the reasons that CTs fail to win is because they bait and fail to use the areas designated for them. It isn't because Ts work as a team because I rarely see that anymore, but more a few who work together at best or because a Super Star Lone Ranger comes in and wipes the CTs before the rest of the Ts can do anything.

^This isn't even about the rule being set in place but it does emphasise my point that the players won't change. You're saying that a lone ranger will wipe out the Cts and giving the Ts more rebelling oppertunites will help out the poor Cts? Nope. Because that's what this rule is about, giving the Ts more rebelling oppertunities.

To be honest CTs have become so comfortable with keeping the Ts in cell blocks at times they forget to check if they're missing any, if any have guns then tell them to stack, or to check other entrances into cell block, etc to make sure they're not going to be snuck up on.

Again, not gonna change. Also, the Ts are barely ever in cell block playing games any more, I can't remember the last time I played fr/lr or simon says, maybe last week?

 

[The Judge]

This is a great discussion that looks very productive toward the outcome of this decision. However, I would like to remind everyone that there is no reason to go after someone personally in this thread because of their opinion as to what the rules should be. After all that is what this thread is here for, for the divisional members to share with leadership what they feel should happen.

Again, let's not get angry or say things that we don't necessarily mean. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Think before you click.

 

[XxDoomxX]

A lot of CTs bait, I can agree with that point made.
I can also say a lot of CTs doint use the CT areas we give them.

But now I must bring up my point, a lot of CTs are actually pubs whom are new to our server, or maybe an =(e)= who is newer to the jail server and maybe hasn't played as much. And I'll even go as far to say there are admins (my brother being one) who rarely play jail and when they do, they make mistakes because they don't frequent it as much as us. Its not like I can play a day of CSS and suddenly go 72 and 5 on Day of Defeat source, so how come it seems a lot of us expect EVERYONE to be a perfect CT?

I notice most of the people involved in this discussion are jail pros, people who have spent most of their eGO career dedicated to this fantastic server we offer. However we mustn't forget the point of views of the other players, who don't play as often as us.

Being an eGO member for a little less than a year, I can still remember the first days I had on jail. And I remembered always having the rulebook open at ALL times, printing out sheets to keep in front of me, and still getting warned by admins daily for breaking rules I didn't know existed.

It took me a while to learn all the rules, so how can we still expect first time pubs to be perfect at the rules? Everyone makes mistakes, especially people who don't know what they are doing that's wrong. Yet those are the people I see under-fire in this discussion. Someones mistakes shouldn't be used as justification for a proposed rule.

Now let me go back to the pub/new player/admin who doesn't frequent scenario. What happens when that player tries to be warden? Try to think back to the first days you ever wardened? Was it really that easy?

As a warden, you are in control of the round. And for players who haven't done it as much as us, it is very overwhelming.

New wardens struggle to even get orders going. I know what its like, I was in that position not too long ago. Panic fills your body as you struggle to please the whole server. Everyone looks upon you to have a good time, and you take it upon yourself to not allow failure.

Now being the new warden that you suddenly are from this very visual explanation, where is the closest, easiest place to get all your T's to to play your first game? Why do you want them close, because moving the Ts across the map is something way out of your ability at the moment, and you just want to try playing a game.

Well cell block is your answer. That is the first place I ever see ANY new warden consider for his/her first game.

Now why am I bringing up newer wardens? Because these are the unseasoned veterans that cause this so called "cell block" issue we are bringing up.

If you watch a few jail rounds, you will now notice that most cell block games and cell block only days are played by the less skilled wardens. It is really the unskilled wardens fault.

But is that a problem? NO!! Everyone takes time to be good at something. And we should NOT be punishing them for that. We were all there in that position at some point, and there is NOTHING wrong with it. We should be actually doing everything we can to make them better. But instead, we are proposing plans to remove the unskilled wardens first area of actually playing a game, the cell block. To me it seems we are proposing to punish the unskilled warden, rather than help. Because to me, we are taking away this area that an unskilled warden can play a game easily. And thus, making being warden that much more difficult. Sounds actually exclusive, where I like to feel we should be trying our best to be inclusive. Isn't that the basic moral eGO is built off of, being inclusive?

Dont think for a minute that the way to fix this would be to only allow "good wardens" to be warden. Because there is no way to be a good warden without practice. And the only way (and best way) to practice is to actually go out there and do it! And if we make being warden that much more stressful and difficult by limiting places to play games, it makes it much more difficult to actually begin your career as a warden.

I think the proper solution would not to be making the game harder to be warden, as we propose, but to make it easier to be warden. Because the easier we make it, the better the wardens we will get. And better wardens = more fun days. We all know the equation, bad wardens=boring days. So why don't we propose ideas to aid and help players become better wardens and CTs? It would only benefit us in the future.

-DOOM

 

[RedDragonKnight]

It took me a while to learn all the rules, so how can we still expect first time pubs to be perfect at the rules?

They aren't really expected to be perfect though I don't see what's unreasonable about sitting in spec for a few minutes to learn the rules if you're new to a server. I spent a fair bit of time sitting in spec going over every aspect of the jail rules when I first started playing jail and then I went another step and played T for a bit until I comfortably understood how Jail was meant to be played.

I'm not expecting a pub to do that, but expecting them to at least have brief knowledge of the rules to the point where they know what is or isn't allowed is not over the top imo.

If you watch a few jail rounds, you will now notice that most cell block games and cell block only days are played by the less skilled wardens. It is really the unskilled wardens fault.

I've noticed that most cell block games are played by jail regulars/veterans. Honestly, if a new warden is struggling to the point where they cannot even give basic orders or maneuver the Ts outside of cell block, they should pass warden and let a different CT take over so they can watch and learn.

 

[Dot350]

I've noticed that most cell block games are played by jail regulars/veterans. Honestly, if a new warden is struggling to the point where they cannot even give basic orders or maneuver the Ts outside of cell block, they should pass warden and let a different CT take over so they can watch and learn.

I've been here 3 years, and I still have trouble moving Ts when I'm warden. Someone could watch different wardens for 36 hours straight and still have trouble the first time they are warden. It'd be nice if it was so black and white, but it isn't.

It's kind of like the first time you drive a car, yeah you've watched people drive for 15 years but that still doesn't mean you know how to do it successfully.

100% agree with Doom.

 

[RedDragonKnight]

I've been here 3 years, and I still have trouble moving Ts when I'm warden. Someone could watch different wardens for 36 hours straight and still have trouble the first time they are warden. It'd be nice if it was so black and white, but it isn't.

Maybe I just learn better/faster by watching others lead, but I had no trouble moving the Ts when I first tried to be a warden. My problem at that time was I was a giant jerk of a CT and kind of just shot people for breaking any rule. Since then I've become much less strict, but there's also more rebellions when I move the Ts as I usually just have them run. Just need to understand that there's going to be people who rebel when mobile despite your best efforts to prevent it. It's part of the game.

Also, being forced out of cell block will actually HELP new wardens see whats on different parts of the map to play without negatively impacting their control over the Ts that much.

 

[Rogue Sniper]

Okay so I decided that I'll put up the short version or the "TL;DR"

In short, this rule won't be noticed by probably a majority of the player base. Over six months ago people were playing these games outside at soccer field, in the pool, at disco, etc. this rule is just enforcing games not be played in cell block UNLESS it requires the cell block but many games do not. After a while and getting used to the rule, it won't seem as such a big deal because its not a big rule. Its not life changing, game changing, or any other sorts of changing.

Maybe people may stop playing them in favor of the games built into the map because its just easier to use those than having to go to a different area, maybe not. Maybe it will cause more rebellions, then again maybe not. Maybe guards will become more observant and prevent rebellions, but again, maybe not.

There it is the short, sweet and simple version.

Or for just the bare bones version,

This rule is moving the games (FR/LR, temptation, Simon Says, spray contests, etc.) out side cell block. That is all, nothing more, nothing less.

While people say there are cons with this there may be but in the long run it will work out just fine. The pros outweigh the con with this rule. We are trying to encourage wardens to use more of the maps to help prisoners enjoy the map more. Those who want to rebel will be more able to while those who are new are not familiar with the map or want to just see what games there are on the map can choose to and play the games the warden takes them to.

 

[XxDoomxX]

Heres my tl;dr
NO.


Syntax will be a REAL bummer if this ban goes into place, that thing is half cell block. Syntax_update_V1/2

Prison breaks no smoking pit D:

The herpdaderpagon of handofthrawn...NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Here's a few pictures that I hope help you remember what you will be missing out on if this ban goes into place. I can recall hundreds of fantastic, memorable rounds played in these areas. They will be missed </3

 

[Rogue Sniper]

Okay so I decided that I'll put up the short version or the "TL;DR"

In short, this rule won't be noticed by probably a majority of the player base. Over six months ago people were playing these games outside at soccer field, in the pool, at disco, etc. this rule is just enforcing games not be played in cell block UNLESS it requires the cell block but many games do not. After a while and getting used to the rule, it won't seem as such a big deal because its not a big rule. Its not life changing, game changing, or any other sorts of changing.

Maybe people may stop playing them in favor of the games built into the map because its just easier to use those than having to go to a different area, maybe not. Maybe it will cause more rebellions, then again maybe not. Maybe guards will become more observant and prevent rebellions, but again, maybe not.

There it is the short, sweet and simple version.

Or for just the bare bones version,

This rule is moving the games (FR/LR, temptation, Simon Says, spray contests, etc.) out side cell block. That is all, nothing more, nothing less.

While people say there are cons with this there may be but in the long run it will work out just fine. The pros outweigh the con with this rule. We are trying to encourage wardens to use more of the maps to help prisoners enjoy the map more. Those who want to rebel will be more able to while those who are new are not familiar with the map or want to just see what games there are on the map can choose to and play the games the warden takes them to.

Re-quoted for emphasis.

 

[RedDragonKnight]

And only those darkness screenshots are games that would be playable. All the others are simple locations and not games that are built into the map that are only playable there.

 

[XxDoomxX]

Re-quoted for emphasis.

Post revised, thanks Rouge

 

[PhaseXero]

Will this actually be added to the rule book or at least noted somewhere. There's a billion revisions but someone has to dig through the forums to get them.

 

[Dot350]

Will this actually be added to the rule book or at least noted somewhere. There's a billion revisions but someone has to dig through the forums to get them.

Nothing is official and at 38-33 the community looks pretty split on it.

 

[RedDragonKnight]

Nothing is official and at 38-33 the community looks pretty split on it.

I would make a guess that a fair bit of the voters put no before fully understanding what this rule meant.