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- Mar 24, 2011
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Sony is now the old Microsoft, and Microsoft the old Sony
www.gametrailers.com/.../bonus-round-microsoft-s-next-move
If you go to10:42 in the above link, Andy McNamara (Editor-in-Chief of Game Informer) Talks about a movement in the gaming industry. How Indie devs are pissed at Microsoft, and how Sony is really embracing them.
At 11:38 Jeff Gerstmann (Famous Game reviewer, and GiantBomb cast member) talks about Microsoft moving in the opposite direction with that stuff (Catering Developers) and how it's a flip of the last time around (He's talking about Sony having the better system, and treating developers better) That is something Microsoft use to do. He also talks about retail, and how publishers are taking sides, and how some don't like what Microsoft is doing (He's talking about Microsoft's used game policy for the XBone, and how that will fragment relationships, and some publishers don't agree with Microsoft's control) He talks about more console exclusives because of this, and this is the big one (He's hinting that hedoesn't agree with the way Microsoft is getting 3rd party exclusives, because of their DRM used game policy, and heres why?
Microsoft/Publishers to receive cut of Xbox One pre-owned sales at retail
www.mcvuk.com/.../0116137
It talks about Microsoft's Azure system in place for retail stores (That sells used games) who agree with a Microsoft contract to use the system. Microsoft/Publishers will take a chunk of each used game sold (That means your games will be worth far less, and will be sold at a higher price because of this control) It also proves Sony doesn't have this kind of system in place, and i'll prove it with the next link.
Sony never considered Always-Online DRM for PS4
www.gamespot.com/.../sony-rules-out-always-online-for-ps4-report-6408071
What is said in the article?
"Sony president of Worldwide Studios, Shuhei Yoshida, said that a constant Internet connection would not be required from users, given the differences in web services available across the globe.?Did we consider it? No, we didn?t consider it," said Yoshida.
"The main reason being that many countries don?t have robust Internet connections. It makes sense for people to have Internet connections to play online games, but for offline games there are many countries that we saw [that] do not really have robust Internet.?
He says that because they believe in a way different philosophy than Microsoft does. It's mostly due of the locations they sell to, and don't have that Azure system in place to handle that kind of draconian system.
Sony catches Microsoft off guard, and got lucky doing so
www.eurogamer.net/.../digitalfoundry-spec-analysis-xbox-one
In terms of the GPU hardware, hard information was difficult to come by, but one of the engineers did let slip with a significant stat - 768 operations per clock. We know that both Xbox One and PlayStation 4 are based on Radeon GCN architecture and we also know that each compute unit is capable of 64 operations per clock. So, again through a process of extrapolation from the drip-feed of hard facts, the make-up of the One's GPU is confirmed - 12 compute units each capable of 64 ops/clock gives us the 768 total revealed by Microsoft and thus, by extension, the 1.2 teraflop graphics core. So that's another tick on the Durango leaked spec that has been transposed across to the final Xbox One architecture and the proof we need that PlayStation 4's 18 CU graphics core has 50 per cent more raw power than the GPU in the new Microsoft console. Now, bearing in mind that we fully expect PlayStation 4 and Xbox One to launch at similar price-points, how did this disparity come about?
The answer to that comes down to a specific gamble Sony made that Microsoft could not - the utilisation of a unified pool of GDDR5 memory. In the early days of PS4 development, only 2GB of this type of memory looked viable for a consumer-level device. As higher density modules became available, this was duly upgraded to 4GB. By the time of the reveal back in February, Sony had confidence that it could secure volume of 512MB modules and surprised everyone (even developers) by announcing that PS4 would ship with 8GB of unified GDDR5 RAM. The design of its surrounding architecture would not need to change throughout this process - one set of 16 GDDR5 chips would simply be swapped out for another.
Microsoft never had the luxury of this moving target. With multimedia such a core focus for its hardware, it set out to support 8GB of RAM from day one (at the time giving it a huge advantage over the early PS4 target RAM spec) and with serious volume of next-gen DDR4 unattainable in the time window, it zeroed in on supporting DDR3 and doing whatever was necessary to make that work on a console. The result is a complex architecture - 32MB of ESRAM is added to the processor die, along with "data move engines" to courier information around the system as quickly as possible with bespoke encode/decode hardware to alleviate common bottlenecks. Bottom line: if you're wondering why Xbox One has a weaker GPU than PlayStation 4, it's because both platform holders have similar silicon budgets for the main processor - Sony has used the die-space for additional compute units and ROPs (32 vs. 16 in One), while Microsoft has budgeted for ESRAM and data move engines instead. From the Xbox perspective, it's just unfortunate for Microsoft that Sony's gamble paid off - right up until the wire, it was confident of shipping with twice the amount of RAM as PlayStation 4.
The added 4GB of GDDR5 RAM Sony put into the PS4 caught Microsoft off guard, because they went the cheaper more convoluted route.
Sony's PS4 GPU is over 50% more powerful
www.anandtech.com/.../5
"Sony gave the PS4 50% more raw shader performance, plain and simple (768 SPs @ 800MHz vs. 1152 SPs & 800MHz). Unlike last generation, you don't need to be some sort of Jedi to extract the PS4's potential here. The Xbox One and PS4 architectures are quite similar, Sony just has more hardware under the hood."
Microsoft's OS for the XBone likely takes up more memory than PS4
Microsoft confirms: Xbox One OS uses 3GB RAM, 5GB RAM for games
gimmegimmegames.com/.../microsoft-confirms-xbox-one-os-uses-3gb-ram-5gb-ram-for-games
With the XBone running 3 OS systems simultaneously, it cuts into game resources. While Sony's OS usage is still a rumor, it's very likely that it only needing 1 GB is spot on.
ps4daily.com/.../playstation-4-developers-7-gb-ram
Xbox One uses more GPU power for all it's OS systems
kotaku.com/the-five-possible-states-of-xbox-one-games-are-strangel-509597078
"The game is loaded in memory and is fully running. The game has full access to the reserved system resources, which are six CPU cores, 90 percent of GPU processing power, and 5 GB of memory"
While the PS4 may use some of it's GPU power, it will be no where close to 10% of it like the XBone and it's 3 OSes.
People puts 2&2 together after Microsoft's XBox One event after Microsoft was very vague on specs, on purpose
By using the limited available specs from the show, mathematics, and PC hardware that's already on the market. People were able to know the GPU power of the Xbox One, and found out how it underperforms. Microsoft realized this, and sent out the CLOUD based theory ASAP, and how it will boost Xbox One's tech up to 300X more than without.
That's really unproven, and most think is very unreasonable. Seems like it's reactionary FUD to try and 1-Up Sony out of pure desperation, and it came out AFTER the truth got out about the Xbox One being underpowered compared to the PS4
Lending a friend your game? He will need to pay full price of the game.
kotaku.com/you-will-be-able-to-trade-xbox-one-games-online-micros-509140825
"You'll have to pay a fee?and not just some sort of activation fee, but the actual price of that game?in order to use a game's code on a friend's account. Think of it like a new game, Harrison said."
The Only way your friend doesn't have to buy the game (At full price) is if you are there signed into your account.
The Kinect is mandatory, and can?t be turned off
www.penny-arcade.com/.../the-kinect-is-mandatory-and-cant-be-turned-off-welcome-your-new-motion-sens
"Kinect does require to be connected to Xbox One in all cases, yes," he said
Always on, always watching/listening, giving Microsoft feedback. That's very intrusive to our privacy, and in order for your system to work, Kinect needs to be working. Hopefully Microsoft's quality on Kinect is better than the 360 RRoD.
All that adds up to a bunch of big screw ups from Microsoft, and their arrogant attitude. There is no other reasonable explanation really. Just put all the pieces together and makes you an easy to see picture. If you still want the XBone, just be prepared for Used/Rental game services to become extinct, games to become worthless, and a console system that you are only licensing until Microsoft takes down the servers. That daily DRM check makes your system dependable on whatever Microsoft decides, and your online service quality. While Sony will leave it up to the developers to do as they wish with their games, and they don't have a system in place like Microsoft's. You would think Microsoft's system is better because you have the option to sell your games. However, with Sony it's not 100% certain that every Publisher will lock out used games, and you will have the choice to support those that don't. Furthermore, there is no mandatory "Always Online" or "Online Checks" on Sony's platform that we know of, so it's up to us to support what is best for gaming going forward.
FYI, The Xbox One Voice Commands Weren't in Real-time
me.ign.com/.../fyi-the-xbox-one-voice-commands-weren-t-in-real-time
"PlayStation 4 currently beats Xbox One in terms of raw power and has a more mature developer environment, Avalanche Studios has told us".
"The Just Cause creator is working with each next gen console right now, and says that in terms of pure specifications and working environment, PS4 is the preferable console. "
slumz.boxden.com/.../avalanche-ps4-has-more-raw-power-more-mature-better-dev-tools-than-xbox-one-1929247
Microsoft confirms indie developers can?t self-publish games on Xbox One
news.yahoo.com/microsoft-confirms-indie-developers-t-self-publish-games-015050725.html
"Independent game developers who are excited about selling new games on the Xbox One got some bad news on Wednesday. Microsoft confirmed to ShackNews that independent developers cannot self-publish their own games on Xbox Live Arcade, and are instead required to partner with Microsoft Game Studios or a third-party publisher. The policy is completely different from those employed by Sony and Nintendo."
Sony are actively pushing 60fps, 1080p
www.eurogamer.net/.../2013-05-24-xb...their-say-on-specs-self-publishing-and-tvtvtv
"This week Digital Foundry analysed the relative power of both the PlayStation 4 and Xbox One, and concluded that, on the face of it, Sony's console comes out on top. This has much to do with the 8GB of DDR3 RAM inside the Xbox One compared to the 8GB of super fast GDDR5 RAM inside the PS4.
According to Gilray, this could see PS4 games enjoy a slight performance advantage over their Xbox One brethren.
"We might see slightly smoother framerates on PS4," he said. "We're working with Sony right now, and they're trying to actively push 60 frames per second, 1080p. You might get situations where the graphics will be a little, but not much, lower quality on the Xbox One. Or, you might get some fixed at 30 frames per second situations in 1080p. It depends on the scale of the game. If your game is going to push the heck out of the PS4, you might have to do some little tweaks [for the Xbox One version]. "
Microsoft possibly using Kinect as Visual DRM?
www.mcvuk.com/.../0116138
UPDATE: To address the question of the age of the patent. Yes, the patent is old. But we have been told by UK industry sources within the last month that this system will be implemented on Xbox One.
UPDATE 2: Microsoft has now issued MCV with the following comment: "Microsoft regularly applies for and receives patents as part of its business practice; not all patents applied for or received will be incorporated into a Microsoft product.
Here's proof that the PS4 doesn't have online DRM, or needs online at all
www.officialplaystationmagazine.co.uk/.../michael-denny
"Playstation 4 can still be enjoyed old school without an Internet connection at all"
----------------------------------
Compiled from various posts in this thread.
www.gametrailers.com/.../bonus-round-microsoft-s-next-move
If you go to10:42 in the above link, Andy McNamara (Editor-in-Chief of Game Informer) Talks about a movement in the gaming industry. How Indie devs are pissed at Microsoft, and how Sony is really embracing them.
At 11:38 Jeff Gerstmann (Famous Game reviewer, and GiantBomb cast member) talks about Microsoft moving in the opposite direction with that stuff (Catering Developers) and how it's a flip of the last time around (He's talking about Sony having the better system, and treating developers better) That is something Microsoft use to do. He also talks about retail, and how publishers are taking sides, and how some don't like what Microsoft is doing (He's talking about Microsoft's used game policy for the XBone, and how that will fragment relationships, and some publishers don't agree with Microsoft's control) He talks about more console exclusives because of this, and this is the big one (He's hinting that hedoesn't agree with the way Microsoft is getting 3rd party exclusives, because of their DRM used game policy, and heres why?
Microsoft/Publishers to receive cut of Xbox One pre-owned sales at retail
www.mcvuk.com/.../0116137
It talks about Microsoft's Azure system in place for retail stores (That sells used games) who agree with a Microsoft contract to use the system. Microsoft/Publishers will take a chunk of each used game sold (That means your games will be worth far less, and will be sold at a higher price because of this control) It also proves Sony doesn't have this kind of system in place, and i'll prove it with the next link.
Sony never considered Always-Online DRM for PS4
www.gamespot.com/.../sony-rules-out-always-online-for-ps4-report-6408071
What is said in the article?
"Sony president of Worldwide Studios, Shuhei Yoshida, said that a constant Internet connection would not be required from users, given the differences in web services available across the globe.?Did we consider it? No, we didn?t consider it," said Yoshida.
"The main reason being that many countries don?t have robust Internet connections. It makes sense for people to have Internet connections to play online games, but for offline games there are many countries that we saw [that] do not really have robust Internet.?
He says that because they believe in a way different philosophy than Microsoft does. It's mostly due of the locations they sell to, and don't have that Azure system in place to handle that kind of draconian system.
Sony catches Microsoft off guard, and got lucky doing so
www.eurogamer.net/.../digitalfoundry-spec-analysis-xbox-one
In terms of the GPU hardware, hard information was difficult to come by, but one of the engineers did let slip with a significant stat - 768 operations per clock. We know that both Xbox One and PlayStation 4 are based on Radeon GCN architecture and we also know that each compute unit is capable of 64 operations per clock. So, again through a process of extrapolation from the drip-feed of hard facts, the make-up of the One's GPU is confirmed - 12 compute units each capable of 64 ops/clock gives us the 768 total revealed by Microsoft and thus, by extension, the 1.2 teraflop graphics core. So that's another tick on the Durango leaked spec that has been transposed across to the final Xbox One architecture and the proof we need that PlayStation 4's 18 CU graphics core has 50 per cent more raw power than the GPU in the new Microsoft console. Now, bearing in mind that we fully expect PlayStation 4 and Xbox One to launch at similar price-points, how did this disparity come about?
The answer to that comes down to a specific gamble Sony made that Microsoft could not - the utilisation of a unified pool of GDDR5 memory. In the early days of PS4 development, only 2GB of this type of memory looked viable for a consumer-level device. As higher density modules became available, this was duly upgraded to 4GB. By the time of the reveal back in February, Sony had confidence that it could secure volume of 512MB modules and surprised everyone (even developers) by announcing that PS4 would ship with 8GB of unified GDDR5 RAM. The design of its surrounding architecture would not need to change throughout this process - one set of 16 GDDR5 chips would simply be swapped out for another.
Microsoft never had the luxury of this moving target. With multimedia such a core focus for its hardware, it set out to support 8GB of RAM from day one (at the time giving it a huge advantage over the early PS4 target RAM spec) and with serious volume of next-gen DDR4 unattainable in the time window, it zeroed in on supporting DDR3 and doing whatever was necessary to make that work on a console. The result is a complex architecture - 32MB of ESRAM is added to the processor die, along with "data move engines" to courier information around the system as quickly as possible with bespoke encode/decode hardware to alleviate common bottlenecks. Bottom line: if you're wondering why Xbox One has a weaker GPU than PlayStation 4, it's because both platform holders have similar silicon budgets for the main processor - Sony has used the die-space for additional compute units and ROPs (32 vs. 16 in One), while Microsoft has budgeted for ESRAM and data move engines instead. From the Xbox perspective, it's just unfortunate for Microsoft that Sony's gamble paid off - right up until the wire, it was confident of shipping with twice the amount of RAM as PlayStation 4.
The added 4GB of GDDR5 RAM Sony put into the PS4 caught Microsoft off guard, because they went the cheaper more convoluted route.
Sony's PS4 GPU is over 50% more powerful
www.anandtech.com/.../5
"Sony gave the PS4 50% more raw shader performance, plain and simple (768 SPs @ 800MHz vs. 1152 SPs & 800MHz). Unlike last generation, you don't need to be some sort of Jedi to extract the PS4's potential here. The Xbox One and PS4 architectures are quite similar, Sony just has more hardware under the hood."
Microsoft's OS for the XBone likely takes up more memory than PS4
Microsoft confirms: Xbox One OS uses 3GB RAM, 5GB RAM for games
gimmegimmegames.com/.../microsoft-confirms-xbox-one-os-uses-3gb-ram-5gb-ram-for-games
With the XBone running 3 OS systems simultaneously, it cuts into game resources. While Sony's OS usage is still a rumor, it's very likely that it only needing 1 GB is spot on.
ps4daily.com/.../playstation-4-developers-7-gb-ram
Xbox One uses more GPU power for all it's OS systems
kotaku.com/the-five-possible-states-of-xbox-one-games-are-strangel-509597078
"The game is loaded in memory and is fully running. The game has full access to the reserved system resources, which are six CPU cores, 90 percent of GPU processing power, and 5 GB of memory"
While the PS4 may use some of it's GPU power, it will be no where close to 10% of it like the XBone and it's 3 OSes.
People puts 2&2 together after Microsoft's XBox One event after Microsoft was very vague on specs, on purpose
By using the limited available specs from the show, mathematics, and PC hardware that's already on the market. People were able to know the GPU power of the Xbox One, and found out how it underperforms. Microsoft realized this, and sent out the CLOUD based theory ASAP, and how it will boost Xbox One's tech up to 300X more than without.
That's really unproven, and most think is very unreasonable. Seems like it's reactionary FUD to try and 1-Up Sony out of pure desperation, and it came out AFTER the truth got out about the Xbox One being underpowered compared to the PS4
Lending a friend your game? He will need to pay full price of the game.
kotaku.com/you-will-be-able-to-trade-xbox-one-games-online-micros-509140825
"You'll have to pay a fee?and not just some sort of activation fee, but the actual price of that game?in order to use a game's code on a friend's account. Think of it like a new game, Harrison said."
The Only way your friend doesn't have to buy the game (At full price) is if you are there signed into your account.
The Kinect is mandatory, and can?t be turned off
www.penny-arcade.com/.../the-kinect-is-mandatory-and-cant-be-turned-off-welcome-your-new-motion-sens
"Kinect does require to be connected to Xbox One in all cases, yes," he said
Always on, always watching/listening, giving Microsoft feedback. That's very intrusive to our privacy, and in order for your system to work, Kinect needs to be working. Hopefully Microsoft's quality on Kinect is better than the 360 RRoD.
All that adds up to a bunch of big screw ups from Microsoft, and their arrogant attitude. There is no other reasonable explanation really. Just put all the pieces together and makes you an easy to see picture. If you still want the XBone, just be prepared for Used/Rental game services to become extinct, games to become worthless, and a console system that you are only licensing until Microsoft takes down the servers. That daily DRM check makes your system dependable on whatever Microsoft decides, and your online service quality. While Sony will leave it up to the developers to do as they wish with their games, and they don't have a system in place like Microsoft's. You would think Microsoft's system is better because you have the option to sell your games. However, with Sony it's not 100% certain that every Publisher will lock out used games, and you will have the choice to support those that don't. Furthermore, there is no mandatory "Always Online" or "Online Checks" on Sony's platform that we know of, so it's up to us to support what is best for gaming going forward.
FYI, The Xbox One Voice Commands Weren't in Real-time
me.ign.com/.../fyi-the-xbox-one-voice-commands-weren-t-in-real-time
"PlayStation 4 currently beats Xbox One in terms of raw power and has a more mature developer environment, Avalanche Studios has told us".
"The Just Cause creator is working with each next gen console right now, and says that in terms of pure specifications and working environment, PS4 is the preferable console. "
slumz.boxden.com/.../avalanche-ps4-has-more-raw-power-more-mature-better-dev-tools-than-xbox-one-1929247
Microsoft confirms indie developers can?t self-publish games on Xbox One
news.yahoo.com/microsoft-confirms-indie-developers-t-self-publish-games-015050725.html
"Independent game developers who are excited about selling new games on the Xbox One got some bad news on Wednesday. Microsoft confirmed to ShackNews that independent developers cannot self-publish their own games on Xbox Live Arcade, and are instead required to partner with Microsoft Game Studios or a third-party publisher. The policy is completely different from those employed by Sony and Nintendo."
Sony are actively pushing 60fps, 1080p
www.eurogamer.net/.../2013-05-24-xb...their-say-on-specs-self-publishing-and-tvtvtv
"This week Digital Foundry analysed the relative power of both the PlayStation 4 and Xbox One, and concluded that, on the face of it, Sony's console comes out on top. This has much to do with the 8GB of DDR3 RAM inside the Xbox One compared to the 8GB of super fast GDDR5 RAM inside the PS4.
According to Gilray, this could see PS4 games enjoy a slight performance advantage over their Xbox One brethren.
"We might see slightly smoother framerates on PS4," he said. "We're working with Sony right now, and they're trying to actively push 60 frames per second, 1080p. You might get situations where the graphics will be a little, but not much, lower quality on the Xbox One. Or, you might get some fixed at 30 frames per second situations in 1080p. It depends on the scale of the game. If your game is going to push the heck out of the PS4, you might have to do some little tweaks [for the Xbox One version]. "
Microsoft possibly using Kinect as Visual DRM?
www.mcvuk.com/.../0116138
UPDATE: To address the question of the age of the patent. Yes, the patent is old. But we have been told by UK industry sources within the last month that this system will be implemented on Xbox One.
UPDATE 2: Microsoft has now issued MCV with the following comment: "Microsoft regularly applies for and receives patents as part of its business practice; not all patents applied for or received will be incorporated into a Microsoft product.
Here's proof that the PS4 doesn't have online DRM, or needs online at all
www.officialplaystationmagazine.co.uk/.../michael-denny
"Playstation 4 can still be enjoyed old school without an Internet connection at all"
----------------------------------
Compiled from various posts in this thread.
