The Team Stacking Problem

Tomain

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Apr 18, 2009
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There is an epidemic which has started to run rampant here among TF2 Div. Over the years, there have been times when it has been worse and times when its been practically nonexistent. Recently, however, it has come to my attention that its starting to become a pretty serious issue again.

I am just as guilty as anyone else of hopping on a server, looking to see who else is on and subsequently joining the winning team. Why? Usually because my friends are on that particular team. Its not my most frequent method of joining a team, mind you. Most of the time I just select random and go with it. The question which arises here partially stems from this issue. What is the right thing to do? Not, what is going to benefit me the most?

We all love to play with friends. We all like to win. We all like to be able to look at our GameME stats and see that over time we are improving. Ok, maybe not that last one for everybody... but some of us are pretty obsessed about that. I look after every gaming session. >_> Is there anything wrong with these things? No! Of course not!

The issue which is becoming more and more common place is people team stacking. Since there may be a couple of people who don't necessarily know exactly what that is, here's a general definition. Basically, team stacking is when a number of good players purposely stay on the same team for an extended period of time and just destroy the other team over and over again. Frequently the most obvious team stacks occur right after an auto-balance, where 1-2 people from the winning team get put on the other team and they purposely switch back to the winning team so they can simply continue winning with no threat of a challenge.

Now... I understand, there are times when a player is simply that good. Some people can join a team and give that team a guaranteed advantage. This is not what I am referring to. I'm talking about multiple people always playing on the same team, or almost always playing on the same team, and never switching it up to give the server more balanced matches.

"Why does this matter? Isn't this just about having fun?" Yes, yes it is about having fun. Its about EVERYONE having fun, not just a select few players having fun because they win every time or almost every time. Over the past 2 months of play time I have seen and heard countless accusations of eGO players stacking teams (again, I'm occasionally guilty of it... working on that) and how things just aren't fun when there's no balance. You know what the most frequent replies I see are? Its certainly not eGO members spreading out to balance things. More often than not the eGO members either laugh about it in Vent while saying the "whiners are just sad because they suck" or, in more extreme cases, actually say something on the servers about how the players getting rolled basically need to suck it up. There is nothing right about this.

Other issues which arise with team stacking... frequently when one team becomes stacked, there will be 1 eGO member on the non-stacked team who chooses not to help with the stacking. Then what happens? That 1 eGO member and his (using him, his, he as a generic here) team get destroyed over and over again. He says something about it and his peers tell him he is just complaining or that of he's sad he should switch teams. He doesn't switch teams, knowing it would just add to the problem... but because he's having no fun, he quits. Now, in addition to causing one of our own people to quit due to lack of enjoyment, we also have a PR issues where all the pubs on the server may very well have seen this discussion... and now eGO looks like a bunch of jerks, even when dealing with each other.

I personally have lost two recruits who would have joined eGO if they didn't see team stacking on a frequent basis. Both of them very literally told me they wouldn't join eGO because, while they like our servers SOMETIMES, eGO members appear to encourage team stacking. This is another part of what makes this such a serious issue... people, good people, are choosing not to join eGO because we are making ourselves look bad.

Here's the thing. I'm not preaching at anyone. However, we need to fix this issue and we need to fix it now before it becomes a serious issue. I see people joke about and all I can think is "how is this funny in the least?" If you joined a server that was stacked and stayed stacked the whole time, chances are... you wouldn't stay for long, I don't care who you are. Very few people are that masochistic and seriously hate themselves that much. So... another thing which this brings up... the more team stacking we have, the less people want to play our servers... which has a strong potential to make our server rankings drop like a rock. That's the logistical side of things. The humanistic side of things is this: eGO is all about being respectful to others, having fun and meeting new people. On our servers, the only way we can encourage fun and respect is by LEADING BY EXAMPLE. If teams are stacked, less people have fun... this leads to name calling, cussing and general disrespect for others as people get more and more frustrated. Then we have to kick someone who is cussing or... whatever not because they're a genuine jerk, but because our actions caused them to get so frustrated that they may have accidentally broken a rule. I know IRL I cuss when I'm upset. Some people don't have my self control and channel that in game.

We are literally causing more issues for ourselves by allowing the stacking to continue. More paperwork, less new recruits, more dissent amongst our own members. This. Needs. To. Stop.

I don't care if you just want to pad your stats, I don't care if you want to play with your friends... do those things! But don't do it at the expense of other people. We are eGO. We represent what, to me, is the finest gaming organization in the world. We are the face of this clan. Set the example! I'm going to do my best to practice what I'm saying here... I expect you all to do the same. I know you are capable and I know you're good people. Let's show that to everyone.
 
This is a very real and serious problem that I can also say that I have seen a lot. As you've said, you can switch your team alone and try to balance the teams, but usually no one else helps. It needs to be a group effort to lessen the occurrence... and while it seems that this is asking you to not to play with your friends, this is not true! I've had fun while playing against my friends! "Hey, good job [friend], that was an impressive kill on me."
This might be a somewhat controversial topic... But it needs to be addressed. I've heard from many pubs and a few members that this makes the non-stacked team almost always leave thinking, "Wow, this is terrible. I'm out."
Even when there are a few people that try to scramble teams, I very often see people responding to it saying that they don't want it or that they're just upset they lost. I understand it's fun to win.... But I think that it's also fun to have a challenge, while in a balanced round, and still lose.

Also keep in mind that there is no way that anyone can be singled out here. Almost everyone (including me, unfortunately) has done this.
 
Thank you for the post, I have been noticing this more and more. This was in fact a rule that was in place with the former CoD division. Besides, why not just auto assign? :)
 
Thank you for the post, I have been noticing this more and more. This was in fact a rule that was in place with the former CoD division. Besides, why not just auto assign? :)

Long ago... like 2009 at least, it was a rule in TF2 division as well. Used to be a rule on all our Insurgency servers back in the day too. That's where I originated. :-P
 
Yep.

Nailed it.

See this all the time.

I feel bad for actually laughing at it a few days ago when it was posted here in the forums.

Personally, I join BLU no matter what (unless it's full) just because it's one of my favorite colors XD (pathetic, I know). I never ever join a certain team just because they are winning or have more people I'm familiar with. In fact, if it actually gets to the point where my team has 4 open dominations for the top 6 people and we are just pulverizing the other team again and again, I do type "!sausage" in the chat. And I realize you're not directing all of this at me.

It's nice to play with friends and all, but sometimes you've got to play against them to be fair. And honestly, team-stacking should never ever be a strategy, if you can even call it a strategy. The sheer fact that other eGO members actually say those things on Vent is just disgusting. I hope that stops, first of all.

This thread is truly eye-opening and I believe we should all acknowledge the seriousness of this dilemma before things get even worse. I never thought of it until now that this was an issue that lead to further issues.

Thank you.
 
I've also noticed this problem starting to get much worse and it only seriously bothered me when after an autoscramble I watched a player sit in spawn for a while. I didn't take issue with it immediantly even though our team was struggling and their help was kind of needed, after all they might have just been afk. I then noticed a few minutes into the round that the player switched teams and started to play making what would of been fairly even teams completely one sided.

This is a serious issue as it's making me want to not be in the same server as the players that constantly do this and I'm sure there has to be at least a few others that share a similar opinion.

Edit: on a second note should the problem get too out of hand/not fixed, turning off gameme could possibly help the issue, this would be an extreme option in my opinion but one that could definitely help with the issue.
 
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I totally agree. There has been way too many times when I've jumped on one of our servers and a particular team will be stacked with eGO members. Of course I'll join the opposite team, and I'll hang around for a round or 2. However, I'll wind up leaving to go to another one of our servers because it is just miserable and off-putting. I can only imagine how this must come across to our players. It's not a very welcoming scenario. The great balance of tf2 (classes/weapons) is so awesome, and we should treat our servers with the same respect.
 
Whenever I'm playing Egypt, I try to be against eGO members. Just because I can stab them (usually facestabs). And then they go Pyro. Then I die over and over. Then they go back to tehir classes (And then the cycle repeats).

Also, when someone who has never played join, and they are playing against a team-stacked team (is this right?), they think the game is too hard for them and they quit. Or, if they are in a team-stacked team (again, is this right?), they think the game is either too easy, so they quit or it's easy, so they don't play it for real, and then, when they join another server, they just ragequit because it's harder.

Also, pretty big posts...
 
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Oh gawd where do I start with this... *Gets all comfy.*

Okay, I usually play at night because that is usually when I am available to play TF2. I go and join Egypt because most of my friends are playing there. When I do get in, I usually don't have much choice, but to join the most recent person's spot. Now, I do like a good challenge, and there are some of you I love to play against, mostly the soldiers for obvious reasons, but I soon realize, that the person who left, most likely ragequit. It's pretty obvious that they did because usually the other side will have like fifty-millions dominations. I'll just shrug about it and play, but after about 10 minutes of playing, I even wanna ragequit. Why do I ragequit..? Well, when I can't even get out of spawn for about 5 minutes, it's not exactly that fun. I can't tell you how many times I've ragequit while playing on Egypt. I'm kinda surprised some of you don't come to me asking why I just had quit randomly while playing.

For about the past week or so, I've been on the lesser-stacked team fairly often, usually quitting within like 30 minutes or so, just because I've given up on trying to help the team win or trying to get out of spawn for once, so I just quit playing TF2 for the night because I am so frustrated and can't take it anymore..?

Sometimes I'll be the only eGO member in the server, then some other eGO members will come on, and I've seen them purposely wait till the winning team had less members, so they could join. And guess what happen...? Team became stacked, basically making me quit relatively soon.

Psh, today when I came on to play, I wanted to play with the people on Vent. Yeah... I quickly stopped playing because I first spawned and got camped hard. Then got a crit in my face as I walked out of spawn, so I quit. Apparently people think it's funny, so they laugh at me and say "You're ragequitting.!?!" Yes I am ragequitting, not fun once again when I can't freakin' get out of spawn. I'd rather spend those 10 minutes doing something else than barely making out of spawn.

When things are going well, autobalanced likes to mess with things. Now, sometimes, it likes to change a particular person to the other side. What does this person do..? Goes to spectator and then proceeds back to their original team. This is quite unfair. The autobalance isn't there to just to be an asshole to you or whatever. It's there for a reason. So stay on your team that you were assigned and not purposely go back. *coughcough*

I've actually gotten called along the lines of being "unsportsman-like" from a eGO member. I got stuck between two sides of enemies in Egypt and there was basically nothing I could do. Someone saw me and started coming after me, so I hurried and suicided before I got shot. Now you can call this whatever you want, because I know you didn't like it, but don't call me along the lines of being unsportsman-like whenever you clearly stack teams. I don't appreciate that at all.

And then another time, I got warned for being disrespectful to my team. I do get a bit emotional and frustrated at times so these things just come out of me and I do apologize what I had said, but why are you warning just me, whenever these random pubs join and complain and say their team sucks, that they're "idiots", or "morons," and that you don't warn them..? Again, I don't appreciate that at all.

Finally, it's a bit off-topic and I guess it can be apart of the game. But dang it, you guys loooooooooooooooove focusing me. I may just be paranoid, but it really does seem like some of you focus me a ton. I am sure it's not against the rules or anything nor that I think I should since I know I am a pretty huge threat to some people, but whenever you uber for the first point in Egypt, shoot a sticky at me, I go flying above you and past you, why do you turn around and instantly start running for me..????? It really makes me upset.

Anyway, I hope some of you really quit with the team stacking and learn to play without a particular friend or such.
 
I'll just shrug about it and play, but after about 10 minutes of playing, I even wanna ragequit. Why do I ragequit..? Well, when I can't even get out of spawn for about 5 minutes, it's not exactly that fun. I can't tell you how many times I've ragequit while playing on Egypt.
...
Anyway, I hope some of you really quit with the team stacking and learn to play without a particular friend or such.

I've noticed that this ragequitting has happened a lot more often lately, not just on egypt or with specific people... But I've been guilty of it, too. I think we can all understand this feeling.

With the friends thing, it might not be so much to learn to play without them. This is for fun, after all, and who's to say we can't play with a specific person? I think it more like try not to play ONLY with, say, 3-4 of your friends on the same team while no one is on the other. You can play *with* your friends when they're on the other team. It's like playing chess. Or tag. Or golf. You can play with and against friends at the same time.
 
I play at times when hardly anyone from eGO is online, but occasionally, on Dustbowl, I still rage quite a bit after being beat a couple of times. I can just keep myself from not breaking the rules, but sometimes all caps happens, where I'm tired of being beat. I usually then go play a random joke class ( w+m1 pyro ) and other unserious stuff like that just to cool off. I realize my team is not going to win and I go for having fun myself.

One time, on Dustbowl, the team scramble wasn't working ( not enough players to scramble at 11 v 12 ) and so my team ended up gloriously being beat a million times in a row. So I started playing spy, without ever disguising. Needless to say, it was fun.
 
I have been guilty of team stacking often. But after a short while its no fun for me on the winnings side. I'll switch to the other side and try to iniate scrambles but those rarely go through. The only time I saw a concentrated effort on both sides to have an even match was on foundry today. Both teams kept voting to scramble until the balance was just right. Turned 2 minute matches into 30 min+ ones with only one sudden death. Pretty much the only server i see other then harvest and payload that aren't completely one sided and offer a good fight. I really hate not being able to play on certain servers knowing I am going to get destroyed if I go on them due to team stacking.
 
So does everyone propose the division servers force everyone to "Auto Assign" instead of picking a color? Do you all propose the servers lessen the Scramble threshold?
 
So does everyone propose the division servers force everyone to "Auto Assign" instead of picking a color? Do you all propose the servers lessen the Scramble threshold?

I remember a TF2 server I played on had something simular to: *** is trying to stack the teams! For shame!

Maybe don't allow players who were just autobalance'd to switch back manually?
 
I think that is still in effect for pubs/e's. As admins, that restriction is lifted (in case we have to go take a demo of someone hacking, take care of a situation, etc).

I just could see ways around the two things above, for auto assign someone can just wait until 1 team has less than another and click auto assign then. I think building comradery is half the battle, some days id rather be disadvantaged and fight back, some days id rather all out annihilate (hence some days i play battle engi and some i play heavy).

I feel like to everyone who posted paragraphs (its good they did, im not criticizing), but whats the root of the problem? Is it just eGO members wanting to play on the same team (I mean we have nightly events, amiwrong)? Is it our scramble threshold too high (even though ive got my butt handed to me 4 rounds in a row, that one team has comradery and when the scramble happens, it makes the competition even better)?

tl;dr - whats the core issue here?
 
I remember a TF2 server I played on had something simular to: *** is trying to stack the teams! For shame!

Maybe don't allow players who were just autobalance'd to switch back manually?

This is a great start. Also the threshhold needs to be changed in my opinion.
Also its not the butt handed to you 4 times in a row. Its a team of the exact same people that do not get scrambled and proceed to Roflstomp you for the next 3-4 hours.
 
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I have to go to work in like 3 minutes, so I don't have time to write an entire explanation why, but I wanted to say one thing real fast and I will try to remember to follow up when I get home.

I am 100% against any rule or precedence that prevents any person who plays on eGO servers from being able to play on whichever team they want, no matter their reason.

More to come..... maybe.
 
here we go:
Firstly, screw gameme everyone whines over it and their precious -20 points. It's pure evil and I dont keep track of it...the Dom's on the other hand.

though on a serious note:
Team scramble every round or other round, that should solve it. Not for nothing and I like all of you as people but omg in game...

Best example i can think of is a classroom, you have a select few that gather up in a corner and the professor constantly has to tell them to not sit together. I guess if we treat this as a class room some people could benefit from the class by being moved from their seating arrangements. Not as fun when you get camp'd and or dominated by the same people over and over again, specially when your trying to fill.

I'll be very honest and this is probably the best place to say this now, I'm thankful for my promotion and meeting new people, but TF2 hasn't been fun anymore and yes I rage quit cause its not fun anymore, one can only be dominated by the same people soo many times. As a result I have shifted my role more towards being an administrator. So I'll stick to my applications, attempting to server fill and ensuring we are punk free. If people really want to be competitive and pad their scores unfairly might I add, its fine, I'll still help fill servers and handle the troublemakers, it's personally given me a chance to explore the other divisions and hop on DoDs and CSs for a change of scenery. Its win-win in the end, but I hope something changes soon as it does look like i'm not the only one.
 
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