The Team Stacking Problem

And just a disclaimer here: I am famous on other site forums for skimming the OP, my eye's glazing over at all the WORDs and skipping to the end to re-ignite a smoldering flame war that was just dying down.

I am NOT going to do that this time, however. I never pick Red or Blu. I just click on 'Random' EVERY SINGLE TIME. And I NEVER change sides unless things are totally out of wack, and I will join the losing side. The pubs never want to see all of the e, eG and eGO players on one side, totally kicking their butts. I think that eG and eGOs should be aware of this and try to keep up appearances.

I have complained once, in game, about the game being stacked, and got a bunch of excuses back. Then, someone just turned the 'all talk' off. That was very immature, IMHO.
 
My philosophy is simple, enter game, don't hit tab, select random.. every time.

I play whatever team it grants me, for good or bad. And to be perfectly honest, I like the challenge of playing on a losing team. I would only hope everyone else has the same integrity.
 
So does everyone propose the division servers force everyone to "Auto Assign" instead of picking a color? Do you all propose the servers lessen the Scramble threshold?

I think that if everyone were forced to auto-assign, we may see some change.
 
So does everyone propose the division servers force everyone to "Auto Assign" instead of picking a color? Do you all propose the servers lessen the Scramble threshold?

I think lessening the scrambling threshold could help quite a bit.
 
So does everyone propose the division servers force everyone to "Auto Assign" instead of picking a color? Do you all propose the servers lessen the Scramble threshold?

Not everyone! A few thoughts:

First, I do not see this as an issue on all of the EGO servers. I don't see much of this on Dustbowl, almost none of this on Payload or Foundry (which has a high proportion of talented non-EGO players), but a ton of this on Egypt (I don't frequent 2Fort of Valve Maps). But Egypt is also essentially the EGO clubhouse or playpen right now anyway (I am not suggesting that this is a bad thing, just that it seems to be particularly popular for EGO members).

Second, I think the Attack-Defend maps are prone toward imbalance. The Red Team inherently has a massive advantage (by design, and more-so than on Payload Maps since Att-Def points can be capped almost immediately). But throwing a further wrench in the balance works, since so few people play Egypt since so few servers run it, EGO members obviously know the map better than the generally pub-playing population. At least Dustbowl is a relatively popular map and non-EGO player map knowledge is high.

And I'll transition awkwardly through MR's post:

I have to go to work in like 3 minutes, so I don't have time to write an entire explanation why, but I wanted to say one thing real fast and I will try to remember to follow up when I get home.

I am 100% against any rule or precedence that prevents any person who plays on eGO servers from being able to play on whichever team they want, no matter their reason.

More to come..... maybe.

This is where I stand as well and I'm sure he has his own justifications but I'm going to say my piece: I dislike autobalance as a mechanic. I don't think it works well on our servers but also I do not think any other server has gotten it to work acceptably.

This a game based upon team play. Teams that function well together should benefit, rather than be punished by being torn apart. Maybe it is just that I play primarily as a Medic and cooperation is everything for my class, but it is absolutely crushing when I develop some chemistry with a few players and all of a sudden they are ripped away.

Beyond that, team balance in a server is just as much (if not more) about class selection as it is player talent. I am not saying that a superiorly talented team cannot win with non-optimal class selection over a lesser talented team with more optimal class selection, just that I think we can all acknowledge a team with four Snipers, three Spies, a pair of Engies, and a pair of Scouts is choosing "hard mode" so to speak (I'm not advocating class limits either. Some servers have them and they are "authoritarian" ...to be politically correct). I will not fault any player who flees from a team with that kind of class distribution even if it means extreme talent imbalance will result.

I fully understand that it is not healthy for EGO servers to have one team literally blowing the other to bits over and over for hours, but I also do not think relying on autobalance (even with tweaked/improved settings) to prevent server clearing imbalance or rage is the answer. Rather, I think we should take this opportunity to gather up our leaders and try to delicately nudge EGO members from one team to another when things get out of hand. So many servers have their own autobalance settings and no server has found a golden setting that everyone (anyone) is happy with. What we have are wonderful admins on our servers who are tactful, polite, responsable, and trustworthy. Let them handle this, we all know they can!
 
I have mixed opinions, I think that the threshold should be lowered very slightly (25% or less - so if it was 4 rounds of 3:00 to 0:00 wins, make it 3 rounds). This being I see peoples tolerance tank around that 3rd game, and the server clears out.

My goal was to start some critical thinkings, its easy to complain but better to propose a solution and get to what you (in each persons honest/well informed opinion) think is the core of the issue. I think everyone has offered great points (I think the best points include the problem, what maps and gametypes you play on, and a solution -- even if the opinion is to keep it the same).

Rock on \m/
 
I am in agreement with most of what Orange said. People should not be forced to do the right thing. If they were, who would we call out in the forums? :)
 
I have mixed opinions, I think that the threshold should be lowered very slightly (25% or less - so if it was 4 rounds of 3:00 to 0:00 wins, make it 3 rounds). This being I see peoples tolerance tank around that 3rd game, and the server clears out.

My goal was to start some critical thinkings, its easy to complain but better to propose a solution and get to what you (in each persons honest/well informed opinion) think is the core of the issue. I think everyone has offered great points (I think the best points include the problem, what maps and gametypes you play on, and a solution -- even if the opinion is to keep it the same).

Rock on m/

Hi Crash! Right, civil and intelligent discussion rarely a bad thing!

It might help to define exactly how our autobalance settings work right now. In all honesty, as much as I play on EGO servers, I don't know the exact parameters.
 
I think one of the problems is that scrambling half the time doesn't work. I can't tell you how many times the team has been scrambled only to make the teams even more stacked or not really change anything at all. I'm not sure if there is some special algorithm or something that calculates who gets moved to which team but if there is, I don't see it working very often.
 
Before we start complaining too much about team stacking (which is a problem) I will point out that the scrambles on Egypt have been TERRIBLE. I wish I had taken screenshots because when it would scramble last night all that happened was about 2 people would get swapped, rather than a good mix between teams. Obviously this resulted in some pretty crazy unbalanced matches and made already stacked teams far, far worse. It did not used to be like this- did the pluggin change or did some update break the system?

Edit: Ah, I see boink has noticed it too. Any chance we can get a tech-oriented person to weigh in?
 
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Interesting ...

Interesting topic, Since some one from eGO took the time to notify me of this topic ( likely 'cuz I have been known to say " eGO Egypt the home of eGO stacking" on a few occasions) I'll pitch in my 2 cents as an outsider that plays on your servers.

My personal feeling on Team-stacking is bring it on, I'll try to rally my "PUB" squad to put up a fight, if it becomes evident over time that my team can't be at least competitive, I can easily find another server where I can find a competitive game & leave the stackers to their PUB beat down so they can sleep better @ night

1st of Team stacking: every clan does it, has done it & will continue too do it. Some do it with the intent to "own" or represent one tags others 'cuz they want to be on the same team as their friend, still comes down to the same thing stacking, especially if the clan is using another communications forum then that provided by the game ( such as vent). TF2 is a "team" base game & we all know how little must PUB players work as a team or use any communication. Is it wrong or right? Hey it's eGO's server so it all depends on your clans mission.

2nd I said it when I was in eGO & it hasn't changed, the eGO Auto-balance system is the WORST I've come across in any servers I've ever played in.
If the system needs to auto-balance me to help a team out fine, but to do so with 30 seconds left in a mission or when my team has pushed cart to with in 2 feet of the objective or 4 times in the same round, PLEASE how is that going to help the losing team.
auto-balance should be done @ the beginning of the round (like it is on many of the servers I play on).
Plus the fact that it just seems broken on whom/how it's auto-balancing.

So honestly if you don't do something with your ineffective AB it doesn't matter all that much
 
When I joined Egypt last night (because all the cool kids were there) I random joined the 'stacked' team and immediately was told in chat that I had joined the wrong team. I assume the random assignments are just based on number of players and not the performance of those players, right?
 
the assignment is auto generated, it doesnt match players by skill or tags.

I do have to agree with puke-n-shoot on auto balance during the round, I doubt there is anyway to fix that as it happens and annoys even the best people, its rage inducing when your team is about to win and it goes off. The auto-balance has to be at the beginning of the round and actually scramble the teams, not just 2-3 people if there is any hope of having this work.

*wanted to make a final note, some of us could learn some chivalry, there is no need to spawn camp when you are being out numbered by the other team. if there are less than 6 players, we should not be trying to induce rage and I'll give an example. The other day I was filling a server and it was stacked at that time 3 =eGO='s vs me and 1 pub, tell me what is the benefit to anyone and these type of things need to stop.
 
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In answer to crash's post I feel one big change that needs to happen if we don't want ridiculously stacked teams is the attitude of members. Admins should always be setting an example for the pubs and making eGO Egypt the most fun possible for everyone. I have noticed that scrambles have been ineffective nowadays, but if you look at other divisions/servers that have handled this issue you may get ideas of how we might be able to change. In CoD most people just chose auto-assign every time. In DoDS there is no scramble/teamswitch, its left up almost entirely to the admins (or maybe a nice pub) to keep the teams balanced and the game lively. Its awesome that Egypt has gotten so popular, would be a shame to lose that imo.
 
I remain impartial by always defending.

But I have to agree, from an admin standpoint as well. If you see one team has a G or an O on it, join the other one. That way, you have an admin on both teams able to take care of anything that might pop up in team chat. I know for a fact that many teams can and WILL rage when faced with stacked teams.

However a lot of the time they'll do it in team chat, which means that, if there's no admin present, they could be saying the most foul things on the face of the earth and nobody would ever know.

Remember, when we're on the servers, admin first. Don't ignore situations like this that might come up.
 
I have to go to work in like 3 minutes, so I don't have time to write an entire explanation why, but I wanted to say one thing real fast and I will try to remember to follow up when I get home.

I am 100% against any rule or precedence that prevents any person who plays on eGO servers from being able to play on whichever team they want, no matter their reason.

More to come..... maybe.
Quoting myself for posterity.

OK, so to explain my thoughts.

To me, the "Team Stacking Problem" doesn't exists. There is no issue with players playing how they choose, as long as they are not breaking any of our community rules.

The bottom line is, some people don't care about winning or losing; and some people do. Who are we to say what is fun for them? If you are on a team that is getting rolled and you are not having fun, then you obviously are a player who cares about wins/losses. As such, YOU should be doing what you can to win. YOU should be bettering yourself as a player. You should not expect others to change teams because you are not winning like you want.

On the other side, if you do not care about wins/losses, then there is no complaint. It shouldn't matter to you if you are getting rolled, since you are having fun, win or lose.

I think the current auto-balance system does a decent job of changing up the teams when they are "unbalanced". Even so, I'm not a fan of it, I dont think we should be changing people around at all. And once someone has been autoed, if they choose to switch back, that is their prerogative, we should do nothing about it and only worry about playing the game how we want.
 
To me, the "Team Stacking Problem" doesn't exists. There is no issue with players playing how they choose, as long as they are not breaking any of our community rules. The bottom line is, some people don't care about winning or losing; and some people do. Who are we to say what is fun for them?

So, stacking the odds in your favor by playing with people you know versus pubs is not an issue? Now, some people believe in having a fair and level playing field and, in general, I think that should be the case in all servers. Putting the odds in your favor, regardless of whether you find that fun or not, doesn't seem like the cool thing to do, and I'm sure the pubs don't appreciate it. And, well, the pubs pretty much make these servers live...we should be trying to make an enjoyable experience for them and ourselves.

If you are on a team that is getting rolled and you are not having fun, then you obviously are a player who cares about wins/losses. As such, YOU should be doing what you can to win. YOU should be bettering yourself as a player. You should not expect others to change teams because you are not winning like you want.

With TF2 being a team based game, there's only so much one person can do. And, even then, an organized team using a program like vent to communicate will trump that one person. So yea, having some of the people on the stacked team switch to the other team should be expected, as it helps to make that level playing field.

Regardless of whether people actually want to win or not, having a fair match is way more exciting than having one that's completely one sided, especially on Egypt of all maps.

On the other side, if you do not care about wins/losses, then there is no complaint. It shouldn't matter to you if you are getting rolled, since you are having fun, win or lose.

I think the current auto-balance system does a decent job of changing up the teams when they are "unbalanced". Even so, I'm not a fan of it, I dont think we should be changing people around at all. And once someone has been autoed, if they choose to switch back, that is their prerogative, we should do nothing about it and only worry about playing the game how we want.

Outside of the game trying to game the teams even, we shouldn't stop people from making them uneven? That's the impression I got from this post, and I'm not so sure that would be a good thing...
 
I agree with everything Mithos said. Such eloquence. Much thought. Very logic.

So, stacking the odds in your favor by playing with people you know versus pubs is not an issue?

Well, it is only an issue if we roflstomp them so hard that they leave and don't come back (which has happened); that is bad. But I like playing on the same team as Rd, Tomain, Radio, Jhnsn, ect. Because I know I can trust them to actually play the game, communicate back, and not be the 5th sniper on the team (usually :P). I joined the clan so I can play with these people. Not doing that because 'think of the innocent pubs!' is silly.

I think y'all don't realize that 'balance' is not only hard to achieve, it is impractical to enforce to the point of impossibility. Teams will win, others will lose, and one side being 'stacked' with eGO members doesn't even mean that side will win.
 
...I joined the clan so I can play with these people. ...I think y'all don't realize that 'balance' is not only hard to achieve, it is impractical to enforce to the point of impossibility. Teams will win, others will lose, and one side being 'stacked' with eGO members doesn't even mean that side will win.

Sanc, that was beautifully said and you're right!

However, there do come times when the teams are so horribly stacked (regardless of it being clan members on one team or not), and we should have a better method of handling it. Having 11 players to vote on a scramble is kinda high to me... that's almost half the server. Sometimes newer players don't even know how to initiate or participate in voting. Too me, if we have 6-8 people voting together for a scramble in our servers, it's probably for a good cause.

Also, I forgot to mention that auto-assign seems like a bad idea. Forcing members could put a damper on the vibe of the servers.
 
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