What weapon/strat is guaranteed to make you rage quit?
- Thread starter Dr. Doctor (inactive)
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Any weapon with a skill component is insanely powerful when wielded by a skillful user. Pyros who are good at reflecting, pipe aim, rocket aim, scattergun aim, sniper aim, spy positioning, etc. Same thing goes for the tide turner; it takes skill to use effectively. The ease of use is what makes a weapon overpowered. Some past nerfs include the short circuit, equalizer, and the enforcer; all of these weapons were relatively easy to use and shared common properties. They were all direct upgrades from their stock counterparts with major pros that far outweighed the cons; they were "must use" weapons for their respective class. Back then if you weren't using the equalizer as your soldier melee, you were instantly slicing off a large chunk of your potential damage output and survivability. There was essentially no reason to use the shovel over the equalizer- that is why it was nerfed, to open up a viable variety of alternative weapons.
Comparing this to the tide turner- there is a huge reason to use other weapons than the tide turner. Obviously stickybombs are a direct upgrade to the tide turner, more damage output and survivability with sticky traps. The chargin' targe gives a hefty 50% fire resistance and 40% explosive resistance, without even mentioning the immunity to after-burn and the charge. There exists plenty of viable alternatives to the tide turner unlike the now nerfed weapons I mentioned earlier.
As for your point about counters, obviously TF2 cannot be broken down into direct counters. Pyros are stabbed, soldiers are airshotted, scouts are piped, etc. But of course some small advantages exist among the classes and weapons; for example, scouts can wreck demos at close range. But luckily skill and expertise can triumph over counters, if a demo has good pipe aim he can wreck the scout at close range. Same concept applies to the tide turner. Soldiers can disrupt your charge and ruin your damage output with their rocket launcher(counter). I can use my charge control to dodge the rockets(counters the counter). He can use his rocket aim and game-sense to predict my dodge and still disrupt my charge(counter of the counter to the original counter). My point is essentially that a player's skill will outperform a statistical "counter". The tide turner is not a game-breaking weapon like the short circuit or the equalizer were.
tl;dr Not every new weapon has to be poop, guys.
I spend a lot of time exploring the utility of the tide turner + claidheamh m?r combination, so I obviously have some bias in my arguments. But I also have some knowledge.
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The fact still remains that the TT made every other demoknight non-melee obsolete. That doesn't make it overpowered, however. Most charges I've faced were easily dodged by simply jumping sideways. You have to anticipate and go in the opposite direction of the demo, with the right timing. It's not OP, we're just not used to it. Every weapon has its weakness. There is no direct weapon or class counter to a Tide Turner. The counter is awareness, timing, and a good sense of the map.
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Before TT even existed, those who were able to abuse their mouse and/or have high enough FPS to do the same thing with SS were more OP than what TT is now.
You could literally charge in circles. Multiple times. Think about that.
TT is a nerf'd version of that fun that existed some patches ago before charging was fixed. Now everyone can do it and not just people who knew how to do it.
You could literally charge in circles. Multiple times. Think about that.
TT is a nerf'd version of that fun that existed some patches ago before charging was fixed. Now everyone can do it and not just people who knew how to do it.
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That was done through scripts to treat your mouse as a joystick while charging. Or play with a controller. But yes, it was OP and has since been removed.
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiIbWA9cihs&index=6&list=UUbj4J2gzRh4BuWK7zsxlxcg"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiIbWA9cihs&index=6&list=UUbj4J2gzRh4BuWK7zsxlxcg[/ame]
The Tide Turner has made me incredibly paranoid. I used to be able to hear a demoman charging, what direction they were going, and account for where they were going to end up. The Tide Turner made me unlearn all that, simply because now I just have to run around in circles hoping that the demoman I hear is actually on my team, and await my almost imminent death. And as Sanctified said, it's not a fun way to die. If you're playing 2fort or some other close-quarters map, all a TT demo needs to do is just charge around corners, and is darn near garunteed to get a free instakill. While yes, this weapon does have a skill curve, I personally feel it's also got a pretty low skill ceiling, meaning that it wouldn't take nearly as long to get good with the TT as it would to get good with something such as the rocket launcher for instance.
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Glad you mentioned this. The TT functions very similarly to the old equalizer (significantly increasing speed) except it works on command and to a greater degree while offering the chance to crit at will and gives passive resistance to boot.Noble said:
Pyro is presented as the 'just airblast them away!' counter, but that doesn't really work in practice because any TT demo that gets close to a competent pyro is an idiot. The demo will just charge away from the pyro and kill someone else or retreat into spawn.
The TT is so much better than the 'game breaking' equalizer it is bizarre that valve ever implemented it.
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The Tide Turner restricts access to your sticky launcher and gives very little resistance. The Equalizer replaced a weapon that soldiers never used anyways for a very large upside. They aren't comparable at all.
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Different slots, sure, but same function and utility. The two weapons are both strong because they let you have options, namely, fast, relatively safe retreat, or powerful and fast offensive capability. The TT just offers more, in spades. These abilities made the equalizer ubiquitous, which is, incidentally, how the TT has suddenly become.
You say apples and oranges, I say there are very strong parallels.
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If I'm being dominated by a Black Boxer, I'll rage quit.
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But it's not the same utility. Sticky bombs' utlity > the TT's utility. While the demoman might get some escape options, they're limiting their ability to do, well, everything.
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i love how i started this whole tide turner argument, i mean i just hate demos in general but i just hate the tide turner more than anything else
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exactly
Again, there's a reason no one uses the other shields anymore (unless they don't have the TT). The TT is just obviously superior. And shields were already incredibly powerful.
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AUTOFRICKENBALANCE as number 1 player on the team!!! Seriously every single time!
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the stock rocket launcher is superior to all of the others, yet it's not op. Also before the tide turner, shields were far from being " incredibly powerful"
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The worst is when you've been successfully defending, there's only 2 seconds left on the clock and you get backstabbed and teamswitched. It's disappointing.
Strongly disagree, the other shields were terrible. Absolutely worthless. The TT just made the shield viable and people dislike it because it's effective.
Look at the weapons people don't like, they don't like them because they work.
Gunslinger
Backburner
Pomson
Tide Turner
Black Box
etc.
People strongly dislike effective weapons.
