What is consider map exploit?

[Flippy the Squirrel]

My perspective, for what it's worth, is that these maps have been carefully tested by Valve. Although I may not like it when I turn the corner out of my spawn and get a SG in the face, that seems to be a factor that the map devs allowed for, or they would have made it tougher to get there.

On the other hand, building teleporters on top of dispensers on top of teleporters in order to create a ladder that doesn't really obey the laws of physics? That seems more like an exploit, as it violates the "laws of the universe" that apply in the TF2 world. Buildings should rest on the ground, and that's that. If you find a way to make a building float in space, that's an exploit and shouldn't be allowed to happen. Hopefully, Valve will fix that some time soon, but in the meantime we should consider it an exploit.

 

[Endiment]

If there's one thing Valve needs to fix it's facestabs. They seem to have finally started watching YouTube and fixed things like the Badlands exploit, but I'd say the game is far from bug-free. There are plenty of things besides facestabs too; one of the worst ones I find is damage timing. Because it takes a small amount of time for damage to register, it's possible to be under fire and retreat, only to die while you're actually behind cover.

Having at last discovered how to get an Engineer on the roof of Gravelpit, I'm still having a tough time deciding if it's an exploit or not. On one hand, it likely wasn't in the game design to place a teleporter on the awning, but it's not an inaccessible location, since Soldiers and Demomen can get there via explosive jumping. However, I'm more inclined to believe it's bending the rules a bit because there's no way it was supposed to be possible, becaues the ability to have as many sentries as you want on the roof of point B is quite broken. You may think, "Well soldiers can blow em up! Snipers can shoot em!" If you place one on the near left corner (looking toward point C from the front entrance) as well as the far left corner, you'll shoot down anyone who can get a good view of you. Besides, an Engineer can hammer off the damage from the rockets. And besides, you've got teammates to keep the attackers at bay as well; if the sentry can't get it, someone else will.

 

[Barlim]

A lot of the weird things that happen in multiplayer games start to make sense when you have two people playing on a server with their computers next to each other. One person moves their character forward, while watching the other player's monitor to see when their character actually moves. You'll always notice a slight delay, depending on the connection type and the netcode of the game.. but there's always a delay there.

Now when you've run around a corner only to die to that heavy that was shooting you, even though you're now out of his LoS, you understand why. Or when you turn around and face a spy only to have him backstab you in the face, you realize that he probably clicked his mouse before you were turned around on his screen. FPS games these days have heavy client-side prediction, so whatever your computer sees you hit, the server accepts as what you've really hit (as far as I understand it).

I remember back in the early days of HL1 and TFC when most of the prediction was server-side. I played on dialup back then, and had to lead my shots, even though bullets traveled instantly to their targets. I actually got pretty good at it, so when they came out with the client-side netcode patch, I had to relearn how to play.

 

[Lafinass]

[quote1203966320=Barlim]
FPS games these days have heavy client-side prediction, so whatever your computer sees you hit, the server accepts as what you've really hit (as far as I understand it).
[/quote1203966320]

This is close. The prediction covers what the enemy players and projectiles are doing inbetween updates from the server which is governed by cl_updaterate. However, that rate only governs the rate you WANT. For example, on our Dustbowl server I generally get 20-30 updates per second. My game however is running at 60-100 frames per second, the prediction algorithms try to provide more accurate frames for those 40-80 frames a second that no data exists from the system.

I've found, when I'm most commonly accused of a face stab, what happened on MY screen is that I strafed and got a clear shot at your back. No matter what you saw on your screen, that's what the server calculated. What people who don't play spy don't realize, is that delay in packet processing hurts us just as much. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten a perfect backstab, animation and all, but it doesn't kill because on their end they've moved forward or turned. And no matter if it was a backstab or not, I've still attacked and dropped my disguise. I get killed by network lag in this manner far more often then I get 'face stabs'.

Now stop sidetracking Kaiwi's thread.

 

[Bubbles(inactive)]

I agree partly with Flippy. Valve has done a lot of testing.
As for Engineers being able to climb up on things and build on roofs, well I don't think that's an exploit, otherwise the items would not be able to rest on rooftops or whatever they're on. There are a lot of places where you get an "X" and cannot place something as an engi in a game. My feeling is if it is WITHIN the game boundaries and there isn't a red "x" then it's free game. I think the game creators have left some room for creativity on the part of engineers. An engi who has discovered a way to get higher has the advantages that come from that creativity, but also the disadvantages like being taken out by snipers, soldiers or demomen. There are always going to be advantages and disadvantages to any sentry placement.
But that's just my opinion... =)

 

[Nemo]

I agree with Bubbles.

 

[OfficerFriendly]

You say that but they fixed Well so that engineers can not place sentries up in the ceiling.

 

[Mr. Chair -TR-]

[quote1203981072=Barlim]
Yes, Endiment, that's essentially how you get onto the B roof. It's really quite easy once you figure it out, and the technique can be used to get to a few other places in the game. I've done it a few times on Gravelpit, but honestly the SG placement up there isn't that great, as they are very easy for soldiers and snipers to shoot from a ways away. The teleporter up there does allow other non-soldier/demo teammates to get up there, but aside from a sniper I don't really see what advantage that might provide. I've since given up on building up there, as it's more of a headache on me than anything else.
[/quote1203981072]
I like to get up there and leave a teleporter there, just so your teammates can annoy the enemy from the back if B is captured, but yeah, building sentries and stuff up there is pretty worthless. A lot of pain for little gain.

Basically all the weird sentry spots left in the Valve-made maps are just "shock spots". They're designed to hit the enemy from a spot they havent seen before (and therefore dont check) so basically you get a few un-contested, easy kills on a few random guys. But once your spot is seen, your cover's blown, and your sentry is just like all the others. You see 'em, you kill/sap 'em.

The only problem I would see out of the gravelpit B roof spot is that spies cant sap them. But on the other hand they are so exposed to everything (including scouts shooting at them safely from underneath the eaves) that you really dont need a spy to destroy them. Anyone can.

Basically, in my mind, if a spy can sap them, and they can be destroyed, then the spot is fine. Whatever "shock" factor they have is purely the fault of the victim, not an exploit on the part of the engy.

Thar be my 2 cents.

 

[Nini]

"If the sentry can be destroyed in any way, then it is not consider a map exploit." That can be included as a guideline, and a list wouldn't be nesserary.

Thank you for all the posts everyone. I have agreed with all the posts so far, and I'm happy to read some of the eGO's thoughts on this. If the council doesn't consider this problem, then I'm sorely disappointed in their decision. Everyone in the clan should have the right to contribute their opinions.

 

[Spanktacular]

[quote1204063096=Endiment]
and either way it's not particularly fair since three or four engies get up there and then the Blue team doesn't have even a tiny chance of winning.
[/quote1204063096]

This is simply not true. Teamwork and coordinating at least two ubers makes destroying just about any gun possible. The top of B is not an exploit, as it can be defeated with good teamwork.

EDIT:
By the way, the rock on S2CP2 is allowed. See killa's comment. (Is there a way to link directly to a post that I'm missing?)
http://www.edgegamers.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?37050

 

[DrunkenSailor]

Okay for now on all our maps until further notice, there are no places in any map that are off limits. The only exception is our custom maps, if there are places that anyone thinks are unfair or exploiting then take a screenshot of it and post in the general forums. We will be adding this to admin school 101 classes so that all our admins are on the same page about this, sorry it took so long we have just been busy with the new servers and some other secret things I cant tell you. If I told you I would have to kill all of you and then we wouldnt have any admins for the servers

Thank you for bringing this to our attention, this will be ammended as we see fit in the future and we will always let everyone know about any changes.

Thank you.