What is consider map exploit?

[Nini]

I thought I'd bring up this problem to decrease the amount of trouble for admins and players.

I notice that not all admins have the same opinion on map exploit, so while some users say <admin name> told me its ok, the admin that is in charge would say no.

Naming the obvious, shooting during setup is definitely not allowed. But what about building a sentry in spawn tunnel during set up, on stage 1 Dustbowl capturing team? Building a sentry on the rock at stage 2 near point 2?

I suggest that there's a list of map exploit things players shouldn't be doing.

If a user has done something on the list, the admin can take action on the user. Done and done, no arguing whether another admin allows it.

I hope the council and other members will consider this problem, and please post what you consider is map exploit.

 

[ln(e)]

Agreed; I'm fine with there being leeway when it comes to judgment, but in the case of sentry gun placement, rulings really should be more explicitly defined. It is my understanding that there have been rulings on this before, but there doesn't seem to be a congregation of all of them in one convenient list (otherwise I don't believe there would be an issue to begin with).

 

[Lafinass]

A list would be nice actually. Sentry gun placement seems like it would be a situation where there isn't a lot of wiggle room.

 

[Purple.Huskies]

I agree it will be nice to have council approved list for us to refer to. However, I think there is not any game breaking sg placement exploits in official valve maps other than badland. I have seen a few demo exploits in dustbowl and 2fort, though.

 

[Barlim]

Aye, aside from building SG's underground (which they just fixed on Badlands), I really don't think there are any places that are "exploits" on official maps. One of my favorite things about TFC was finding neat areas to build SG's that were hard to get to, even if they didn't provide any real advantage (and they rarely did, other than possibly confusing the attacker for a moment). We didn't call these "exploits", we called them "sweet SG spots". The official TF2 maps are fairly "rounded", by which I mean that they feature liberal use of clipping brushes to smooth out detailed features, so finding "Sweet SG spots" is much more difficult (sadface).

Honestly I don't see what the big deal over shooting flames through the starting gates is, either... if you're dumb enough to stand in the flame, you probably wont last long after the gate opens, anyhow. That's just my opinion, though, and I wont contest it.

 

[Signe]

Real exploits are few and far between, and almost all of them involve things that are supposed to be impossible (shooting through walls [e.g. during setup], moving outside the bounds of the map, sitting on points that aren't supposed to be sit-able)

For instance, the spot on 2fort where you essentially "float" a significant distance above the blue spawn. The badlands exploit that was fixed where an engineer could run around in the nodraw area of the map and build sentries which couldn't be destroyed...

Anything that anyone should have realistic expectations of doing is not an exploit. (Building on the rock, building in the setup tunnel, etc.) Just because it might be difficult to destroy doesn't mean it's an exploit. An engineer's JOB is to make it difficult to destroy.

 

[Lafinass]

Except on occasion the council has ruled sentry placement to be off limits that were within the confines of the map. Inside the windows of the final corridor towards the last cap of Dustbowl for example.

 

[sykocus]

Some clarification is needed. I was playing dustbowl a few days ago and one of the admins made the engineers take off the teleporters built on the stairs going to the last point of the 2nd stage. To me thats legit, it's the same as building a dispenser in the doorways of 2fort that lead down to the intel room. If the eGo doesn't agree then it'd be nice to have it universally enforced. IMO other then building though the gate, if you aren't building in an area that can't been seen it should be fair game. Some may feel building on top of B in gravelpit is an exploit, I don't think it is, but it should be stated somewhere; at least on the forums or website.

 

[Endiment]

Gravelpit on top of B is probably the most controversial. Being a Gravelpit regular, I know that every time someone does it, nobody can figure out how and we spend the next several rounds trying to figure out how to get an Engineer up there. I was recently told it involves building a dispenser, standing on it, building a teleporter, standing on it, destroying your dispenser and building a new one, standing on it, then building another teleporter and standing on it to get to the roof. Personally I don't see how this makes sense or is possible, and either way it's not particularly fair since three or four engies get up there and then the Blue team doesn't have even a tiny chance of winning.

 

[Barlim]

Yes, Endiment, that's essentially how you get onto the B roof. It's really quite easy once you figure it out, and the technique can be used to get to a few other places in the game. I've done it a few times on Gravelpit, but honestly the SG placement up there isn't that great, as they are very easy for soldiers and snipers to shoot from a ways away. The teleporter up there does allow other non-soldier/demo teammates to get up there, but aside from a sniper I don't really see what advantage that might provide. I've since given up on building up there, as it's more of a headache on me than anything else.

 

[TheJudge(inactive)]

I think if you can shoot it down from where it is at and you can get to it (for spies) than it shouldn't be a problem.... I never see those sentries last for very long anyway when they put them in goofy places.

 

[Nini]

[blockquote]Anything that anyone should have realistic expectations of doing is not an exploit. [/blockquote]

I agree with Signe, but its up to the council whether a sentry placement is allowed or not. A stickie of don't do's would be nice. Then users and admins don't have to argue over it.

Thank you for the support and discussion, everyone!

 

[Noobkiller]

[quote1203871902=Barlim]
Yes, Endiment, that's essentially how you get onto the B roof. It's really quite easy once you figure it out, and the technique can be used to get to a few other places in the game. I've done it a few times on Gravelpit, but honestly the SG placement up there isn't that great, as they are very easy for soldiers and snipers to shoot from a ways away. The teleporter up there does allow other non-soldier/demo teammates to get up there, but aside from a sniper I don't really see what advantage that might provide. I've since given up on building up there, as it's more of a headache on me than anything else.
[/quote1203871902]
I usually lose my sentry there within 5 minutes of war for B to snipers and soldiers the only way it is impossible to destroy is if you have like 4 engi and 3 snipers covering EVERYTHING!

 

[Booster37]

Like Endiment said, that is the way to do it. However, it the Blu team rushes B like mad men, you'll nevr get a chance to get a sentrynup unless your team counters their attack really well.

The way I look at the first stage setups for Dustbowl, I'd think if there was an issue with people setting sentries at the door, they would have fixed it a long time ago, unless no one ever reported it.

 

[Vipers_Venom]

On dustbowl I don't see building a sentry at the gate a problem even though I've never done it myself because a few rockets from a soldier and it's down anyways let alone a defending uber'd heavy in the dorway can take it out in a matter of seconds. I do think that the councils decision that demoman can't shoot through the gate during set up is spot on, because no one else can shoot through the gate, so I'm sure the developers didn't plan on that happening. The sentry on the rock by point 2 section 2 of dustbowl.... I think if the engineer can make it that far and get up there to build without getting killed deserves to have one up there. lol A couple rockets from a good soldier and it's down pretty quick anyways. If they let it get to a level three sentry then they are not a very good team anyways and should have lost the game by then because if an engineer is camping the point that much the blue team could have easily capped it by then if they wanted to. All in all though I would think a list that has been reviewed and approved by the council would get all admins on the same page and make for a much more enjoyable gaming experience for the people on our servers. Having the rules change on you from one time to the next on the exact same server is frustrating as it would have been if someone told me you can't place teleporters on the stairs to the second point, second section of dustbowl since I have seen eG members build them there myself and have never seen any admins post that you can't build there. (Again I haven't built there myself, but that's my own preference because I think it is way too easy a target to soldiers and snipers since they can hit them from the other side of that section, well out of reach of any sentries. I look forward to a uniform playing experience no matter what the council decides on. Good idea for this post Kaiwi!!

 

[Nini]

[quote1203908049=Bøøster37]The way I look at the first stage setups for Dustbowl, I'd think if there was an issue with people setting sentries at the door, they would have fixed it a long time ago, unless no one ever reported it.
[/quote1203908049]

That has been bought up from other players when an admin insist it was a map exploit, but since he's the only one with power at the time, no justice can be done.

I really like the way you put it, Venom. I think you have said everything I wanted to, but put it better than me. On Dustbowl stage 2 as an offense, back at their spawn on the right, engies can build a dispenser to get up on a building. If that is allowed, then building a sentry on the rock should also be.

I really hope the councils will approve of this, it'll bring justice to those who weren't allowed to do certain things when a different admin is in charge.

 

[ln(e)]

[quote1203916202=Lafinass]
it would be a situation where there isn't a lot of wiggle room.
[/quote1203916202]
On wiggle room, I personally don't mind allowing admins to have their own judgment, but it shouldn't be so unrestricted. Like in this case, it leads to situations where people get warned/kicked/banned over something by one admin and not another. There's a system in place to contest bans like that, but really, a lot of unneeded effort could be avoided if things were a bit clearer.

 

[RaiN]

I see no problem with that sentry in the spawn on dustbowl. Can and usually is destroyed instantly by stickies.

Edit: I actually find it to be a good strategy. If there is a sentry there i waste my stickies destroying it. If no sentry, when the uber comes out i blow the stickies and separate the medic and its a wasted uber for them.

 

[Nini]

[quote1203917247=RaiN]
Edit: I actually find it to be a good strategy. If there is a sentry there i waste my stickies destroying it. If no sentry, when the uber comes out i blow the stickies and separate the medic and its a wasted uber for them.
[/quote1203917247]
Yeah, I think that's the point of that sentry placement. There's no way anyone can get killed by it unless they just stand there and take it.

How come I haven't seen you on Dustbowl lately? =p

 

[RaiN]

Been the weekend, friends talking me into WoW raiding. I usually only play it on weekends (when i can sit at the machine 4+ hours straight) and they snagged me before I got into TF2. I'll be back to normal during the week.