Engineers......why?

[Cicatriz]

I'm going to vent for a second, but I would also like some banter on pros and cons for this.

I seriously do not understand why engineers are not even bothering with the 1st point anymore. No sentries, dispensers or teleports that barely make it a useful teleport. I play on dustbowl a lot and its a new recurring theme. I just don't get it, holding the first point is hard, but not impossible. Is it because engy's are afraid their stuff will get destroyed and they will have to rebuild it?

Seriously, I need some understanding on this, preferably those that play engineers the most. I get so frustrated (swearing with the mic off) when we lose the first point with one minute to go because 3 outta the 4 engy's have their sentries up on the 2nd point since the beginning of the match.

 

[Sir Leeroy]

Because, most of the time they do not have enough time to build it to level 3 sentry, and then 2 ubers charge in and destroy everything

 

[orangetag001]

i got 2 days as engie and i have no clue what those engies are doing...they should stay until the game is over or the sentrys are destroyed and even than they should rebuild them as fast as possible

 

[Lafinass]

If, as an engineer, I recognize that the first point is not going to be held (past round experience or simply a horrible team makeup) I'll build at the second in the hopes that we don't get swept through in one push.

 

[Booster37]

In many cases on Dusbowl, team make a big mistake on taking too many or too few engineers. 3 or 4 is a good number. any more or less is usually a big mistake. What I think is the biggest problem with engineers is the lack of support. Sometimes, teammates grab ammo boxes before setup because they decided to goof off and lost some ammo, which if they grab the full boxes, set an engineer back about 20 seconds, which is a LOT of time.

Another thing is when spies come around, and I'm a victim of this, I quickly panic that there's a spy around and teammates sometimes ignore what's going on. They start sapping, and some of them walk right past what's going on, and not only does this bother the engi, and gets more upset at his teammate than the spy, but the other team then steamrolls through his buildings.

I only setup on the second point if:

1. Too many engineers. I'll set my stuff up and assist another in the front.
2. No Medic. Seriously. How do you expect to hold the first point when 100% of the time, the other team is preparing 1-5 ubercharges?
3. No Pyro. imo, Pyros are the ONLY ones who try to pay attention to engineers near them if the space isn't congested.
4. Not enough engineers. I'll build a tele forward, and might be it.
5. I joined the server in the middle of setup. Why try to build quick and make a mess of it to get taken out quick?

I'm sorry, I play Engi quite a bit and I can hold an area for a while, but no help = no hope. At the same time, don't put yourself in danger.

 

[Nemo]

It's just like Gravelpit giving Blu A and set up shop at B. But yes, no time unless engies work together. 1 level 3 is better than 3 level ones

 

[Cicatriz]

I can understand not putting sentries right on the first point if its obvious that the team has been sub-par. But it doesn't seem to stop engy's even if the teams are balanced or in their favor.

Whenever I play engy, which isn't much anymore, I have always tried to push my sentry as forward as possible(but being smart about it), offensively and defensively.

Booster you make some good points btw.

 

[RobInactive]

I play engie alot, engie and pyro are by best classes i would say. The reason i often put my sentry down at the point behind is becuase one uber could destroy your turret at the first point, that uber then rolls through and captures the first point. The other team then has a steamroll effect where they just roll through your remaining points. While if you have a sentry up at a sensible place at the point behind, even if they do uber your team, uber has worn of by the time it gets to the next point, and thus the sentry serves its purpose. I also put sentries between the first point and the point behind, but to be honest no good engie would put their sentry on the front line. Sentries are there for a backup, a sorta "home base" if you will, the idea is that your team assualts slightly ahead of the sentry, and that the sentry provides defence so your whole team can deadicate themselves to attack.

If you try and place a sentry to far forward, either youll never get level 3, or they will just edge/uber it. If you have an open map on the other hand i guess you could put the sentry on the point, or a little back, but only if your team has a firm grip of the point first, and is now struggling to follow it through, for example warpath, you could put the sentries next to the pillar infront of their little tunnel at the main point, but even that case is and exception, as the engies have the support of the pillar and the medic-bottle spawn room.

 

[Max The Bunny]

[quote1207124528=Sir Leeroy]
Because, most of the time they do not have enough time to build it to level 3 sentry, and then 2 ubers charge in and destroy everything
[/quote1207124528]

Yeh, I always start building second point, 'cause there can be a spy or something. I build always only second point.
edit: Yes, and always I help others engies get their sentrys up!

 

[HoosTrax]

One uber can easily wipe out most if not everything. I've seen numerous times where point one gets taken, and then point two quickly falls because the attackers rushed on it while there were no defenses up.

 

[Sylar(inactive)]

Ubers can be followed

 

[Flippy the Squirrel]

While it's true that one uber can wipe out an sentry/dispenser combination, I have seen many occasions where buildings have been saved by the application of a few stickies and carefully aimed rockets, throwing the uber pair off their aim at a critical moment. This kind of issue, more than anything else, helps to illustrate why this game is called Team Fortress.

 

[Cicatriz]

When I say I put it as far forward as possible, I mean I do it in an effective manner, so it has some impact right off the bat. I believe the whole "it will be destroyed by an uber" is flawed. Of course it will at some point in time (if the other team is any good). But my understanding of sentries is to slow the other team down and/or hold a point. Plus if you have good placement with sentries the more ubers they have to blow. Example, lets say the opposing team, only has to blow one uber because there is only one sentry on the first point. That means that the other two ubers can be used for the second point. And thats where my issue with it comes up. There is no pressure on them for the first point, so they have plenty of momentum and a uber or two for the second point, which leads to a steamroll for the team. Reasons being, they have those ubers for the second point AND most of the defensive team will be dead trying to defend that first point with no help from engy's and their sentry.

Flippy also makes a great point in that, I wish personally that demo's should help with blowing people/stickies away from an engy's sentry to keep it up. Make em waste that uber.

 

[Booster37]

That's the thing that bugs me about ubercharges. What are the Top 3 reasons ubercharges are used for:

3. Allowing teammates to cap point
2. Clearing enemies
1. Taking out sentries

Almost all ubers are used for the sole purpose of getting rid of a sentry or two. I find it funny that some people try to attack the charged players (except demo and soldier, they help of course). The worst part is when an uber comes, some players flee like crazy away from the problem, even though they can help slow it down and still live, and leave that poor engineer alone to get slaughtered.

Alothough, I think the real problem in some situations is that some players don't know what the first word in the game is. They play to kill enemies at all costs, not paying any attention to the rest of their team. If you aren't a Spy, you should help out your team directly. That's not saying spies shouldn't. They do all the "behind the scenes" stuff.

 

[KaptainKangaroo]

I have a bigger problem with engies who build directly ontop of another engies stuff. I find that to be a bigger hindrance than settping up too defensively since it increases the likeliehood of an uber breaking a team's entire defense. An uber demo can put 8 stickieds around an sg and disp. If there are 2 of each there he doesn't really need to change his aim to get all 4. Building a point back on any map seems unproductive to me. I've seen engies do it in warpath and then run up ahead, at which point a single spy saps everything and takes the point as easily as he would have without the sgs. And for Dustbowl in 4 engies drop tele entrances on their way to the next point they can pick up enough metal on the way to build a couple sgs and disps. If they work together they can get 2 level 3s and half-full disps. By the time the enemy uber and destroys them(assuming they are spread out) the engies could build two more sgs slightly farther back and have teles soon after. I can see it being more useful to have 2 pairs of engies that alternate positions as they lose ground rather than an sg sitting on the last point. I find a pyro/demoman far more useful against spies on the last point anyways. And especially on dustbowl with the respawn 10 feet away if a spy is ever caught there are 6 more people there to blow him away.

 

[UN4M3D]

If you look on many dustbowl servers, Theres never engineers building in the first part when I build there once, it got destroyed 2 seconds after the game started

 

[Booster37]

I agree, Kangaroo. I don't get engineers that build everything close to each other. It everything is separated, it is a lot harder to take down.

 

[Flippy the Squirrel]

It works best when Engineers think about the coverage of sentry guns and the proximity of dispensers. If one gun can protect another (and vice versa) then it makes it that much harder for a solder/heavy/pyro/demoman to hide around a corner and take it out. Again, it's all about teamwork and tactical planning.

 

[Crashman]

I confess that I will sometimes build my first sentry back near the second point when I want to try out a new spot for it that would normally be hard to build at when under fire. This is rare though as I usually try to defend the first point as best I can. Sometimes after dying and having my gun destroyed at the first point, I will watch in spectator and look at who is dead on the scoreboard to decide whether I should start my next gun at point #2 or hustle back to the front line to continue defending point #1.

 

[Chuck Nortress]

yea too many resources end up being wasted and you just get overpowered. i still dont understand the offensive engie either.