Camper or a Rusher? or does it even matter?

[explosion]

something less gibberishlike this time(at least that's my intention) so plz hear me out



even though they are playing something called "Day of defeat : Source"

when they are actually defeated players act like it's something unacceptable

while victories take care of everything, defeats make u notice every flaws your teammates have

your mg seems to be more campy, your snipers looks like some clueless idiots etc etc

but most of all, the gap between rushers and campers becomes too obvious

when your team's winning most members becomes rushy

enemy defense stumbles and if u don't rush u r just left behind with no cap and no kills

so either u like it or not, u becomes rushy. u skip some checklists and go to mid, their 2nd then 1st

with this combined forces on the mid your victory comes faster and faster. until it doesn't.

enemy starts to act like they actually have some brains left inside their skull.

they block your capture, kill your mates and start using nades and deploy MGs

now there are even some rats inside your spawn and your team suffers then this gap appears

at this point some players think they should retreat and regroup. they think they lost their momentum

and the weaknesses they had are now exposed and can be exploited so they try to block the holes in their defense line

on the contrary, other players think they should stick to the play style which brought them so many victories.

they calls for more rush and hope if they are fast enough their weakness couldn't be exploited.

and now the team is divided. which makes this team more vulnerable. the crack between the lines

of rushers and campers gives enemy the space to make their moves. so your team starts to lose.

with each defeat the rushers become more and more convinced that they're losing because of the campers

and wonder how come suddenly they all became cowards and usually don't hesitate to express their feelings

now campers has their own dissatisfaction. they think they are losing because there are too much players who

doesn't know how to defend and they need to clear their rear first to rush again. so to them the rushers looks reckless

now they start to fight this fight(calling names and swearing) can last quite a while and players start to quit

and their hatred toward each faction grows deeper and deeper



so in this scenario, to whom u relate more? are you a camper? or a rusher?

if u r a rusher do u think campers are cowards?

if u r a camper do u think rushers are idiots?

what do u think is the real problem here? is it the lack of leadership?

or a guy who has to much time at hands before his semester starts?



p.s. I wrote this assuming we are supports or assaults not mgs or snipers

 

[Yak]

I think I am a Rush-Camper. I rush most of the time, but that rush is to get into certain positions that give me the advantage in a fight. Those are also usually strategic choke-points that limit the other teams ability to access some part of the map.

I do not think any form of play is cowardish or cheap. They have their style of play and I understand it fits their desired gameplay.

Typically hardcore campers are repetitive in nature, meaning they tend to camp the same spots. Once they kill me twice in the same spot i start pre-firing that point when I get to it. Typically that stops them camping that spot and they move on to somewhere else. Cat and mouse scenario.

Some people are straight in the game for teamwork and flag captures... Others are in it for the high Killeath ratio. Some are just trying to survive the mayhem. Some are specifically in it for the Points and being highly ranked. I personally do NOT use Voice Chat in the game, but typically the team that communicates best (either via text or voice) wins.

 

[explosion]

I think I am a Rush-Camper. I rush most of the time, but that rush is to get into certain positions that give me the advantage in a fight. Those are also usually strategic choke-points that limit the other teams ability to access some part of the map.

I like it when my team has players who thinks this way but from where I see rusher and camper get separated when they reach that choke point. let's say u r an axis player and your team just suffered from a guy who got into your spawn area. he came from church, crossed archway, got into cellar then camped at the stairs to your 2nd flag and killed about 5~6 players.


you didn't like it so you got into the church and now you are controlling church hall which is a very good camping spot. then you see some of your players are making a move to capture mid. your team has church but has no control over the apts so there's a good chance this attempt will fail. in this situation what would u do?


each player reacts very differently to this situation. some doesn't move a bit and camp so he/she can secure the area. others would go to the church hallway or tower and shoot the enemy who are trying to block mid, then there are another players who would do the same but then go out to mid, 4th flag or apt. of course there are many variables which come into calculation but there's a tendency each player shows.


In my opinion there's no right answer at this situation. if you go out your team might get mid then clear the apt from the backward and win but at the same time your team's attempt could fail and ally might kill u then set up mg at the church so they could deny axis any passage through church over next 15 mins. and cause there's no right answer, fighting doesn't end.


p.s. when I say camper it doesn't include clueless ones or novices. I meant the ones who have enough experience and plans
p.s.2 everyone in this hypothetic scenario are either assaults or supports hardcore camping with mg is very different story.
p.s.3 I forgot what I was trying to say myself so I wouldn't expect u guys to understand XD writing in English makes my mind wander lol

 

[Yak]

I definitely am not afraid to move to where the fight is. My personal K is pretty even over the long term. I chase the fight and let the bodies fall where they fall.

 

[explosion]

as u said above there are many ways to play and to me it sounds like a very nice way to play It's a shame you usually join U.S.Army not us peace loving Germans

 

[Yak]

Ha, I do end up on Allied quite a bit.

I think that is because we have many high ranking players who tend to always play Axis so I go Allied in a vain effort to keep other non-eGO players from getting frustrated and leaving. I figure if they can see me die as often as themselves, then maybe they won't get frustrated and leave the server. For some odd reason though the last few weeks I have been playing Axis way more than normal and I am not sure why just yet.

 

[explosion]

I haven't thought about it that way I think your effort wouldn't be all in vain.
and as for you recently joining Axis frequently, that's because you can't lie to your soul! embrace it

 

[Cubey]

The single most important number that helps your team win is the kill-per-minute rate. It does not matter how you play as long as you are pushing that number to your best limit and play the game in such a way to progressively try to increase it. In fact, to become better in the game, you need to progressively overload yourself by putting yourself in a more difficult position which requires you to shoot faster and push that number higher.

There is a player on allies called Nutty-Squirrel. A lot of axis players hate him and call him a big-time camper. It is true. He is a huge camper. However, sometimes his KPM rate is at 1.5, which is highly impressive. So whatever he is doing is genuinely helping his team a lot. Compared to other big time campers who are getting 0.4 kpm and are the most useless players on the server (even bots are more useful), Nutty-Squirrel is desirable teammate.

People should play with both a variation of rushing and camping. Part of your skill is knowing which one to do at the right time.

 

[explosion]

As usual you raised some good point knowing when to camp and rush is one of the virtues of player. and I can understand your liking of Nutty cause I know how he plays when you are around he usually covers apt entrance from piano room which helps you concentrate on your front or sometimes deploy at the apt crack or near apt exit when u go out into our cellar. the way you and he play make quite a synergy I'll give him that but if u say he knows when to camp and when to rush, I have to say I highly doubt that.

I have seen him camp at the roof behind ally 1st flag for more than an hour long; within that period ally actually won couple of rounds but he didn't move. when Ally had church, mid, apt he still didn't move. when ally was pushed back cause they didn't have any mg cover and when they lost all their territory except their 1st and 2nd then he started to get some kills. that day he got his kill by sabotaging his own team. and it's not a one time thing. from my point of view, that's how he usually plays. I understand ally mg can be a one tough class to pull off when one is facing good axis players, I too camp a lot when I play ally mg but the way he plays sometime just doesn't have anything to do with that difficulty.

As I said some time ago I too appreciate the value of kpm. but it's a tricky thing. there are many cases when kpm can be deceiving. for example
let's say both ally and nazi mg are camping at their 1st without moving the whole time what they're doing are basically the same. but if Axis has better players and rush into Ally 1st, Ally mg will gain many kills while axis mg will be left with relatively low kills. Ally mg can have 3 times higher kpm than axis mg but does it mean he's a better player? yes some can say he was in the right place but was he there because he knew it was the right place? after all he never left that place. or much importantly, didn't that place become the right place because someone didn't go to all the former right places and just camped there.

I think when you say kpm you mean long term kpm but when u think of certain short term situations kpm can mean even less. for example when I joined this match ally and axis had 6 players each. axis had mid and 1st, ally had the last I joined axis and ran to axis 2nd with 1 player. he killed one enemy then we took back axis 2nd we went into apt he killed another ally and we got to the room which has the window to ally 1st. then he got killed by ally mg on catwalk and I didn't move a bit and just hide there. I heard ally mg moving up and 2 or 3 ally players running and I waited there for another 2 mins then there was this pause, no ally player has been killed for about 7~8 sec; so I jumped out of that window, got their 1st then ran to their 2nd. I didn't encounter any enemy and Axis won that round. in that round I had the lowest kpm both teams combined I had 0 kills for about 2~3 minutes I could have kill those guys who were running to the mid, I could have killed another group of guys who were also running to the mid and church, in the eye of kpm I let all those opportunities wasted, I didn't push my self at all but does it mean I didn't contribute to axis victory?

long term kpm has quite some meaning I don't deny that but it has it's limit. It doesn't represent certain aspect of the game. maybe that's just some exceptions but I can't just dismiss those and say "if your kpm is low you are not helping your team" it just isn't true.

p.s. I guess I have to add some sentences to be fair.
a. Nutty sometimes can be a good asset to his team(usually with right combination of players) and even if it's true that he sacrifices his teammates for his gain, he's not the only one who does that. most players do that to some degree either they acknowledge that or not. only some of the players are free of these behavior and I admire them for that.
b. low kpm doesn't mean you are a bad player, but at the same time players with high kpm usually contribute much to their team.

 

[Cubey]

As I said some time ago I too appreciate the value of kpm. but it's a tricky thing. there are many cases when kpm can be deceiving. for example
let's say both ally and nazi mg are camping at their 1st without moving the whole time what they're doing are basically the same. but if Axis has better players and rush into Ally 1st, Ally mg will gain many kills while axis mg will be left with relatively low kills. Ally mg can have 3 times higher kpm than axis mg but does it mean he's a better player? yes some can say he was in the right place but was he there because he knew it was the right place? after all he never left that place. or much importantly, didn't that place become the right place because someone didn't go to all the former right places and just camped there.

Both of those players are bad. Well below average. So it does not matter anymore who is better. Why should two terrible players, one with 0.2 kpm, and another with 0.6 kpm, be compared to determined who is better? We can say they are both useless for their teams. However, if an MG camper at first flag is getting 1.5 kpm, then whatever he is doing, he is doing a good job.

I have seen him camp at the roof behind ally 1st flag for more than an hour long; within that period ally actually won couple of rounds but he didn't move. when Ally had church, mid, apt he still didn't move. when ally was pushed back cause they didn't have any mg cover and when they lost all their territory except their 1st and 2nd then he started to get some kills. that day he got his kill by sabotaging his own team. and it's not a one time thing. from my point of view, that's how he usually plays.

It is conceivable that he changed his playstyle to kill less in order to not die as much. If this is true then he becomes more useless. But from the games that I had with his he was often fragger #2 or #3 on my team after 60 minutes. But if he changed his playstyle, as you said, then he becomes less useful obviously.

 

[explosion]

Both of those players are bad. Well below average. So it does not matter anymore who is better. Why should two terrible players, one with 0.2 kpm, and another with 0.6 kpm, be compared to determined who is better? We can say they are both useless for their teams. However, if an MG camper at first flag is getting 1.5 kpm, then whatever he is doing, he is doing a good job.

1st I don't think mg camper at their 1st can get 1.5 kpm in hours period so how much meaning is there in determining whether he's good or bad?
2nd just for arguments' sake if we assume their is mg camper at their 1st who can somehow get 1.5 kpm it still doesn't necessarily mean he is doing a good job. let's say there's a mg is scoring about 1.2~1.3 kpm at the church exit by blocking axis 2nd balcony. cause axis know there's mg ahead so they don't easily come out. there are no other ally player who wanna cover axis balcony due to this low axis activity around their 2nd area so no one really goes through apt instead ally are putting all the manpower into church- mid to Axis cellar-1st. if a certain mg player can do this but instead taking the 1.5 kpm camp life at his 1st does this mean he became a better player?

 

[I SURVIVED LONDON BLITZ]

Hi guys , as I tell them in-game I am the best player so why argue about who is going to be second best. Play the game, be nice and every player will think your the best, my advice not that its worth much. I do enjoy reading our forums, it starts my day of very nicely. Cya later in-game.


LONDON BLITZ

 

[explosion]

Lol London It's just that some of us just can't be as nice as you so we have to make it up to with other stuffs but I'll keep your advice in mind

 

[J-Wall]

I'm just getting back into the game after a long hiatus but I have the same strategy as I did before, rush and hide, get behind enemy territory for the element of surprise and run back and forth through the "no mans land" areas of the map to keep up that surprise. For example, rushing in Ava to apartments then back then forward, all the while helping teammates and killing opposing rushers.

I think some of you have tunnel vision about kpm and ratios to be honest. I think it matters more in a pure FPS but with DoD and classes it helps, but it's not required to be "good" with 1.2+ ratio, I would rather have a guy on my team with a .6 but can get the team on-target to objectives. Using the mic, calling out where mg nests are, laying suppressive fire when the team needs to advance to the last or second flag, etc. The makes the team for supportive (verus high K but not winning rounds).


I think game smarts trumps shot accuracy/kpm.

 

[explosion]

I would rather have a guy on my team with a .6 but can get the team on-target to objectives. Using the mic, calling out where mg nests are, laying suppressive fire when the team needs to advance to the last or second flag, etc. The makes the team for supportive (verus high K but not winning rounds)

Those are some of many actions I mentioned that kpm can't represent. if you get to enemy spawn area and make 3 of them play hide and seek with you for 30 sec, it's about equal to killing 3 enemy at the mid. if someone prevents it from happening at all it also is no less than scoring multiple kills especially when your team is moving up. if you call out mgs and snipers so that your teammates can take them out or at least watch themselves it may not show on your stats but it can result in lowered enemy kpm or increased friendly kpm. if mg is covering bottlenecks and enemy are wandering behind that walls for a while it's also like killing them cause either way they are useless for some time period. if you throw a nade and make that mg run away so that your mates can move up it also is no less than a kill. raw kpm doesn't represent any of these actions and that's why I said it has it's limits

 

[Doldrum]

Its not about camping or rushing. The game is all about efficiency.
The same logical thinking applies to any other game like a MOBA (league of legends, dota 2, hots), or a game like team fortress 2. It boils down to basically effectiveness per minute if you're gonna rate people. Kills do help a lot of course! Getting kills = higher effectiveness.

You should be playing to be at max efficiency(in relation to whatever game you are playing), whatever that is you are capable of skill wise. I myself can not snipe or play riflemen for the life of me, so i simply do not play those classes. Thats one basic logical choice I make. I am limited by my skill. So knowing my limit, I don't make gameplay choices that I can not hold up. (I could try to learn to snipe or play riflemen, but those classes dont interest me actually)

Some people don't have the critical thinking to make right choices for the best interest of their team. (Ferret when he camps church with rocket as axis)
He's holding up the rocket slot for a job an assault or support could manage. And rocket is better used to suppress the enemy from using snipers and mgs. I've seen his team lose mid a lot because mgs setup and hes not there killing them. He doesn't understand map control, or he doesn't care for it.

You just apply efficient logic to every choice. If you are idling at a location(camping) and not actually applying any map pressure or getting any kills, then you are not doing anything. You are equivalent to idling in spawn. Which is the worst thing you can do to your team.

Maybe you are unable to move forward without dying, so you have several options: stay where you are, hide such as going prone or squatting, use smoke if you got it, or retreat to another location. You need to be very observant and aware and think very quick.

Then you can consider, how can you help your team the most. Well usually things like kills, or map pressure, giving ammo to rocket/mg, or coordinating pushes via smoke and communication will help the team more.

But if we are gonna mention those labels, campers and rushers....
There is a need for campers and people who rush(and thus die a lot for the sake of winning). If we all rushed, we would lose our ground easily when we die. Campers hold the ground for us.
A camper should know if he is actually being effective or not.
Rushers will die. It is necessary to win. The odds of not dying -and- making it all the way to last flag are very low.

I enjoy "rushing" the most, But I know when I need to camp a location for my team also.

 

[explosion]

I agree with your maximum efficiency approach(at least when one completely concentrate on victory) that is about one third of what I wanted to say (or should I say what I wanted you to say) when I started writing. The last was a) about the impossibility of having complete understanding of what’s going on. b) how each player makes different decision due to that lack of information and various experience each player has. c) how good player’s leadership fails. But each minute I spend writing in English make me hate you guys for using English so I’ll try to keep it short sorry I lied, I don’t have the skill to keep it short and simple XD

To acquire efficiency one has to make the right call and to make the right call he/she needs accurate information. but in this game you can’t have complete understanding of what’s going on. There are many undisclosed parts so one usually have to estimate what’s going on in that area. And as each player’s experience varies subsequently how they fill in those blanks varies too. So naturally they make very different decisions. And that’s one of the reason why even the good players fight and quarrel over what should be done.

For example when there’s an ally mg on catwalk, some assaults think about smoking, which is not a bad choice, but some rockets, snipers, rifles think about taking out that mg. and these two methods are not that compatible. If your sight is blocked and you don’t have the location of that mg you can’t take them out unless you get lucky.

That assault must have thought it was the right call. he might have not known the fact that he has long range backups right behind him or just didn’t wanna wait for them to act and lose momentum or he might have thought since there are too many enemy nades they would fail and thought ‘why not just go in with smoke?’. anyway he made a call which he thought to be efficient and that exact call decreased the efficiency of those rocket/rifle/sniper who had run all the way down to lower apt exit.

If he gets enemy 1st flag, well they won so they wouldn’t complain but if he fails and those other players got killed by enemy who ran through that smoke? they wouldn’t be happy. So what was the right call? we can’t know for sure. the problem is each player has confidence in their plans. That rifle might have killed thousands of ally mgs on catwalk or roof. That assault might have captured thousands of ally 1st flag using smoke. Each has their numbers to show to himself and others his decision is right. And this is when they were close to each other and had about same information. imagine what would happen when 1 is near ally 2nd is the other is at axis 2nd. Information they get varies a lot. Their reading of what’s going on can’t be the same. The player at ally 2nd would concentrate on getting flags and in the process might neglect the sign of enemy taking over apt and coming out to axis 2nd. The player at axis 2nd might catch the sign but he/she doesn’t know exactly what’s going on the frontline so he decides to take out the enemy in apt instead of nading/shooting the sniper nest or help the rush team. now that guys at axis 2nd is not happy. as things like these are bound to happen repeatedly their confidence in each other diminish over time.

These are really small part of the cases which proves the difficulty of knowing what’s the right call for yourself and for others. these events happen all over the map every moment and that’s why we should try to understand the reason behind each player’s action. Especially when you think they are not doing their job (which usually means they are not doing their job ‘your way’). Keeping in mind that you don’t have the whole picture makes you humble and gives you more room to understand others. Which can result in more efficient team communication which leads you to victory. If you still don’t like how certain players play, it’s okay no one would keep you from hating him or even putting bullets into his chest but first think about the possibility there are pieces you don't see.

I asked you guys some questions at the end of my original thread 'to whom u relate more? are you a camper? or a rusher?' I hope you can relate to both. 'if u r a rusher do u think campers are cowards?' I hope you don't 'if u r a camper do u think rushers are idiots?' I also hope you don't. "what do u think is the real problem here? is it the lack of leadership?" i don't have the answer yet or maybe I wouldn't have any answer till the end but I think your attempt to understand other player can be a lead to at least partial solution

 

[TheDopeDragon]

I am both when the situation applies, both provide a bit of a realistic atmosphere of war anyone who complains about that wants a pansey game not this one.

 

[explosion]

that 'situation' is a tricky thing I guess, so let us pray.
'Gabe Newell, grant me the serenity to accept camping, courage to rush, and wisdom to understand the situation. and good aim can't hurt '

 

[I SURVIVED LONDON BLITZ]

You all have missed out the most vital thing about playing, enjoy the game have fun and be nice. with this in mind, worrying about your K-D ratio is not going to help you enjoy the game . Trying to bully players into doing what you want will not work as most players will jack up about that and the bully will not win the respect from the other players no matter how good he thinks he is. this is not a reflection on all you guys as you do have fun with the other players.



LONDON BLITZ