[Jail] Make CT areas autowants (catwalks, fenced areas, etc.)

[Rogue Sniper]

Watched people play some Canyondam v3b tonight. CTs already at a disadvantage of 3-1 ratio, Ts just waltz on up and knife the CT and BAM soon the CT team capitulates and Ts own another property they can't rent out due to rising crime rates and falling property prices.

But seriously... idk why they're not with eGO maps hitting the server slowly, CTs should be using these areas and not baiting and Ts shouldn't be allowed to live if they go in them.

 

[Rogue Sniper]

You laid out A scenario at the start of the post. If the warden dies YOU take the warden as fast as you can and give a command, it should only take 5 seconds. Ct's should always be aware of stuff like who's around them, who has the gun, do they have a clear shot on the person with the gun, is there any T rushing him, is there anyone aiming at me, etc.

Look I laid out one scenario as there’s multiple. Every time you come up with an IF scenario I want you to think the opposite because everything you’ve come up with to try and be like ‘we don’t need this’, well I have countered I have stated what I’ve seen on the server and what I’ve dealt with for the past ten years .

You keep telling me all these things and I keep telling you this is how we resolved what you bring up that this is how you resolve these issues.

You know what the most common theme in all my posts in solving the issues brought up? Do you want to know, it’s common sense. I know it lacks but there are people that do have common sense and there’s a lot of people who don’t and that’s who I’m taking in account. Those players that don’t think for themselves you have to think for them.

You tell me that as a CT that I need to keep track of everything going on and guess what that’s not the problem. The problem is you have other CT’s that dont and they’re the ones that it only takes one CT to die and the whole round can be lost because now that the T has a weapon to shoot you with. I don’t care about me, I care about my teammates who might as well just be sleeper cells are waiting to be activated to kill the CTs that are actually trying to win the round and be entertaining and creative and help create a positive playing environment.

Despite what you say there are a lot more positives that outweigh the very few negatives you bring up.

 

[RedDragonKnight]

The scenario that sparked this was I got an ak47 from the ground and killed the warden who was in a catwalk. This caused all the Ts to rush up to that catwalk to get his gun, since warden dying is a freeday. Now, realistically speaking, there's no reason for a T to ever be up there. CT areas by definition are areas designed for CTs only. There are no games up there for the Ts to play, no paths for the Ts to take, they have no business being up there. But, since Ts can unrealistically go wherever they please as long as it isn't armory, they rushed up to the catwalk and grabbed the gun and the CTs got deleted. It took not even 3 seconds for a T to run up and grab that gun, and considering you have to give them 3 seconds to respond to an order, its literally impossible to prevent them from getting that gun or otherwise maintain control. Thus, one death turned into the whole CT team being deleted, and in that scenario its because the gun that dropped in the catwalk was easily obtainable, even though those going up there had no reason to except to assist in rebelling. That's the concept behind autowants and CT areas.

 

[Rogue Sniper]

The scenario that sparked this was I got an ak47 from the ground and killed the warden who was in a catwalk. This caused all the Ts to rush up to that catwalk to get his gun, since warden dying is a freeday. Now, realistically speaking, there's no reason for a T to ever be up there. CT areas by definition are areas designed for CTs only. There are no games up there for the Ts to play, no paths for the Ts to take, they have no business being up there. But, since Ts can unrealistically go wherever they please as long as it isn't armory, they rushed up to the catwalk and grabbed the gun and the CTs got deleted. It took not even 3 seconds for a T to run up and grab that gun, and considering you have to give them 3 seconds to respond to an order, its literally impossible to prevent them from getting that gun or otherwise maintain control. Thus, one death turned into the whole CT team being deleted, and in that scenario its because the gun that dropped in the catwalk was easily obtainable, even though those going up there had no reason to except to assist in rebelling.

Thank you this was one of the scenarios I saw that is the reason that I wrote this.

 

[Corrupted]

I understand that this could fix the problem with warden dying, t's getting more guns and than killing more t's. But if ct areas would be autowant's on freedays than it would be sooo cancer. If a T wanted to play surf he would have to go to the control's area and just because he wanted to be a good T and use the freeday properly he's dead, because a CT is camping in some corner and killing people that are on catwalks. I really don't wanna argue anymore so this is going to be my last post on this thread.

 

[Sampaio]

Are you seriously thinking of putting another restriction on T?

Think of it this way.. a CT is in a place, where Ts shouldn't be. He dies. Now what should the remaining Ts do? Cause technically CT died in a place where Ts can not be, they can't go for the gun cause they know they will die. The time they get after killing warden.. they have to make the most of it.

Most of what Ts do is unrealistic, no prisoner should have a knife.. but they do in the JB server, we shouldn't even be evaluating the situation realistically.

 

[Rogue Sniper]

I understand that this could fix the problem with warden dying, t's getting more guns and than killing more t's. But if ct areas would be autowant's on freedays than it would be sooo cancer. If a T wanted to play surf he would have to go to the control's area and just because he wanted to be a good T and use the freeday properly he's dead, because a CT is camping in some corner and killing people that are on catwalks. I really don't wanna argue anymore so this is going to be my last post on this thread.

CTs can start games. Its not cancer to have CT areas restricted. You can’t just say something is cancer without providing specific examples or scenarios as why you think its so. Its a generic, non-specific excuse that doesnt hold up when its put over a flame. We never had an issue for 10 years with CT areas restricted. CTs understood why, Ts understood why, both teams were fine with it.

Are you seriously thinking of putting another restriction on T?

Think of it this way.. a CT is in a place, where Ts shouldn't be. He dies. Now what should the remaining Ts do? Cause technically CT died in a place where Ts can not be, they can't go for the gun cause they know they will die. The time they get after killing warden.. they have to make the most of it.

T's who are going to rebel, CAN STILL REBEL. THEY DO NO NEED THEIR HANDS HELD. If a T sees a gun on a catwalk, it doesn't prevent them from trying to go for a gun, it just adds the fact if someone SEES THEM AND CATCHES THEIR NAME then that's a risk they have to understand.

Most of what Ts do is unrealistic, no prisoner should have a knife.. but they do in the JB server, we shouldn't even be evaluating the situation realistically.

Why even have guards, why even have guns, why even have players? Its a role play server thats why.



What happened on Canyondam with RDK was exactly why its needed. The fact that Ts run around free and can walk up on to CT areas and pick up CT weapons and the round is basically over is why its needed. Ts don't need it easier. Ts do not need their hands held to rebel, they don't need it easier to rebel and win. CTs aim is terrible, putting them on the sa

 

[Sampaio]

To be honest though dude, when you want to add these areas to restricted area, you are making it hard to rebel in the first place. I know I can walk up to a guard who is in those "restricted" areas without fearing of being shot regardless of being able to fool the CTs, being freeday or such.

They aren't being hand held. If Ts are grabbing the gun.. it's much easier to tell them to drop it and facing that particular T vs remaining CTs in the area (considering that T doesn't manage to kill all of you, in which case that's a different argument).

Yes I agree that this is a roleplay server, that's why Ts can unrealistically go up the ladder and grab the gun.

CTs start with guns Ts don't. Why even be in a place where a gun can be grabbed in 3 second span, if you die? Work together and be smart.

Lastly, this can become an issue much quicker in other maps. Rules should be made keeping all common maps in mind, not just one situation in one particular map.

 

[RedDragonKnight]

To be honest though dude, when you want to add these areas to restricted area, you are making it hard to rebel in the first place. I know I can walk up to a guard who is in those "restricted" areas without fearing of being shot regardless of being able to fool the CTs, being freeday or such.

It only makes it more difficult to rebel on maps not designed around it. Talkin about those no cover wide open square maps that occupy half the map pool . I know its a difficult concept, but there was a point where on freedays, CTs were required to watch the Ts and still maintain control of the prison. This is why it wasn't such an oddball concept for them to activate games for the Ts; they weren't off playing games themselves, they were still doing their job.

They aren't being hand held. If Ts are grabbing the gun.. it's much easier to tell them to drop it and facing that particular T vs remaining CTs in the area (considering that T doesn't manage to kill all of you, in which case that's a different argument).

Telling a T to drop a weapon when they're in a stack (which they were because about 10 people ran for the gun in the same spot) should be the hardest thing to ever do. I don't know why the Ts got so compliant to step out of a stack with a fully loaded ak47 for a one game ST, but 100% the wardens just stand there and ask them to come out for ST. They should get domed immediately.

CTs start with guns Ts don't. Why even be in a place where a gun can be grabbed in 3 second span, if you die? Work together and be smart.

Unless you're sitting halfway across the map to watch the Ts, you're always going to be in a spot where the Ts can get to you in a few short seconds. How do you think I knifed the guard to begin with? Simply put, guards like to do unreasonable things thinking they are safe because they have a big gun, which puts them into an unnecessary position of danger.

 

[Sampaio]

It only makes it more difficult to rebel on maps not designed around it. Talkin about those no cover wide open square maps that occupy half the map pool . I know its a difficult concept, but there was a point where on freedays, CTs were required to watch the Ts and still maintain control of the prison. This is why it wasn't such an oddball concept for them to activate games for the Ts; they weren't off playing games themselves, they were still doing their job.

How many common maps are there that don't have that concept behind it? I may have seen 1 or 2 commonly played maps that have that, even those if you have good aim you can be in a high spot and not get killed. CTs should also watch each other's back. A good aim would make it so unfair for Ts, to a point they have to be spawned with a gun or a bomb to have any luck. Not to mention how easily this could become a problem in a very large or very low population.

Telling a T to drop a weapon when they're in a stack (which they were because about 10 people ran for the gun in the same spot) should be the hardest thing to ever do. I don't know why the Ts got so compliant to step out of a stack with a fully loaded ak47 for a one game ST, but 100% the wardens just stand there and ask them to come out for ST. They should get domed immediately.

This sounds like a bad call from a guard. Its highly unlikely that CTs didn't see a kill or at least the person picking up the gun, otherwise they are not assisting warden and participating in the day. At any case, a follow up call from telling Ts to freeze should automatically be clearing out any chances of rebellion (telling the t to drop the gun), instead of making it worst for the guards by telling Ts to get in a stack. At very worst case scenario where a stack is made. Separating them one knifing distance and killing those still in stack, and eliminating the threat ones and for all should be effective.

Unless you're sitting halfway across the map to watch the Ts, you're always going to be in a spot where the Ts can get to you in a few short seconds. How do you think I knifed the guard to begin with? Simply put, guards like to do unreasonable things thinking they are safe because they have a big gun, which puts them into an unnecessary position of danger.

Again that sounds like a bad CT positioning, which is a seperate issue and should be treated as such.

I understand where you are coming from. Not everyone is lenient when it comes to being CT. I have read your advanced CT guide. But you gotta understand that's just a guide to be a good CT, not the rules. So not everyone has to follow em. If every CT was like that, perhaps I'd consider making this a thing but where it stands, there are more CTs that kill you for breathing wrong than the ones that think of making the server fun.

 

[EpicFlamingos]

My 2 cents is that I think this would help to an extent, as long as it was worded differently, because saying catwalks/fenced will cause issues on some maps.

Also, this still wont help with bad CTs, they'll still find a way to bait regardless of whether or not theres CT areas.

 

[RedDragonKnight]

Ah, but how helpful is unstacking the Ts one knifing distance from each other when you no longer have a height advantage because they're up in the catwalk with you. You're going to be staring down a loosely spread stack with bodies everywhere. There's never going to be a clear shot that opens up in such a scenario; you'll always run the risk of hitting someone inches to the side, or directly in front of/behind your target. Instead you're going to have to unstack them in a designated ground floor area (where they should've already been, except for the fact that they can just run up to catwalks they have no reason being in).

Much easier to just spray down those prisoners going up onto the catwalk area to begin with, because they have no business being there except to rebel.

My 2 cents is that I think this would help to an extent, as long as it was worded differently, because saying catwalks/fenced will cause issues on some maps.

Also, this still wont help with bad CTs, they'll still find a way to bait regardless of whether or not theres CT areas.

The wording previously used to call it a "CT Area" that was an autowant. What was a CT Area you might ask? An area, by design, meant for CTs only. If games are on the catwalk or behind a fenced in area, then its hard to justify that the design was for the Ts not to go that way, since there are games over there. The problem is, this requires a bit of thinking about to determine what is or isn't a CT Area, and isn't just so obvious as "every catwalk ever is a ct area." So then nerds get shot for going into a ct area when they thought it wasn't a ct area.

 

[Sampaio]

You are considering a very worst case scenario which is rare at times, where you have most Ts that managed to make it to that area in the very limited free time that they get.

Like I stated, such things can be avoided by working together.

For example, you noticed this happened one round, you help prevent it from happening again. By keeping Ts away from that area, where it takes longer than the free time that Ts get after killing the warden. Position in a way, that this doesn't happen. When it becomes a recurring thing still where Ts are constantly getting on that area and grabbing the gun, then perhaps the warden should not die there..

I hardly see any benefits in restricting the area, as the situation stands. If proceeded with this, I see this becoming a major issue. Because now the only way Ts can get a gun is by getting lucky that for some odd reason they managed to survive all the bullets leading to the gun that warden dropped. Or somehow getting inside the gunroom.

 

[Rogue Sniper]

You are considering a very worst case scenario which is rare at times, where you have most Ts that managed to make it to that area in the very limited free time that they get.

Like I stated, such things can be avoided by working together.

For example, you noticed this happened one round, you help prevent it from happening again. By keeping Ts away from that area, where it takes longer than the free time that Ts get after killing the warden. Position in a way, that this doesn't happen. When it becomes a recurring thing still where Ts are constantly getting on that area and grabbing the gun, then perhaps the warden should not die there..

I hardly see any benefits in restricting the area, as the situation stands. If proceeded with this, I see this becoming a major issue. Because now the only way Ts can get a gun is by getting lucky that for some odd reason they managed to survive all the bullets leading to the gun that warden dropped. Or somehow getting inside the gunroom.

You keep thinking of competent and cohesive team. That?s just not what occurs. I watched for an hour with the top three CTs of 10-13 being competent and confident. They also died due to being shot in the head or knived because the other CTs didnt notice the Ts rush or care enough to shoot them.


All your responses are in the world of what if the CTs were smart, worked together, and had the aim of LEMs. Truth is as a CT, the game was rigged from the start. The odds are heavily not in your favor with pubs playing as CTs and trying to get them to listen to you and work with you.

Like I?ve said before this change has more positives that out weigh the few negatives that really aren?t negatives.

 

[Drewerth]

I'd be cool with this.

Hell, it was how pG JB in 2013 worked on GMod.

 

[Jacko]

As most of us know common sense isn't so common and having a generic rule restricting CT areas can be troublesome to players. As admins we can enforce and define them as CT areas but there are so many maps and areas that it can be very difficult.

Corrupted brought up a good point that in some cases where to start the game or open the door to the game is on a CT catwalk or CT "area". I can see issues during freedays where CT would kill any T from attempting to enter the CT area.

The only case where I would see this useful is after warden dies and the T's get a small window of freeday before there is a new warden. Other than that I really dont see this as a crucial addition to the rules. CT's need to kill T's for detouring to these spots.

 

[Matz]

Both styles of JB work fine, there isn't a significant issue with any. Biggest cost would be transitional.

 

[Mayhem Death]

After having another discussion about this with my team, we have come to the consensus that we will leave things the way that they are. If we see that this needs to be revisited, then we will do so. Cheers!