An important discussion

[jeremy_duck]

Hello,

So today in the saga of (Jeremy makes long winded posts) I wanted to discuss something that was brought up on my stream yesterday, that brought me to an important realization.

I want to preface this potential discussion point, I don't think this issue that I will discuss at length can be fixed. Unless it is universally agreed on or at least understood, not to mention the amount of work it would actually take to fix this problem. But I'm talking about it anyway because I think it should be understood and I also believe that it is the root of many problems.

Also, if you are curious on why I make long winded/ Very long posts ill explain that here. It takes time and effort to explain and understand a point to the fullest extend of my own understanding of said point, I need many paragraphs to allow the reader (you) to fully grasp what I am talking about in as much detail as possible. This is important that you understand why I am saying what I am saying and why I think it and how I even came to this conclusion to give you a better understanding and more importantly less chance on you misunderstanding me.

Okay, so what the heck are we talking about today?

Realistic Roleplay & Unrealistic Roleplay

Generalization:
Cops are Mostly Realistic Role-players
Criminals are Mostly Unrealistic Role-players

This is a generalization and not actually factual(not completely), here's what is; Some cops do both Hyper realistic/realistic and unrealistic RP, so you might see a cop go to the back of his/her car to grab their weapon(Realism) and you might see the same cop instantly put a scuba suit in a water pursuit while running.

In the same vein you might see a criminal set up an RP to provide roleplay for others (unrealistic as they would get themselves caught) and you might also see a criminal drop evidence for police to find (Realistic)

To be clear, this isn't flame or bad manors towards criminals or police, this is making a distinction that I believe exists in one form or a smaller one. I want to point this out so we as a group can actually figure out together if this problem exists past my own thinking/experience. Because, I could be 100% wrong here, but having a thought experiment for a few hours on stream yesterday made me think of this as an actual problem. Let me explain a bit more.

Previously in the server (Pre-Whitelist);

a large amount of players leaned toward the realistic side of RP, so you would see criminals leave evidence, you would see back and forth's between criminals and cops in OOC chat for evidence recovery, players would be expected to RP vehicle and player damage, and you were required to remove long guns from bags / vehicles - Most of these things being in the server rules to my memory. so in brief, the server was basically a Semi Realistic server with some unrealistic stuff sprinkled in.​

And I must remind you, I'm not complaining about realism or unrealism, or even saying unrealistic RP is bad or the other is good, this is simply a point of discussion, not complaint.​

Here's where I think we are right now (After Whitelist);

the rules around the requirement for your long gun were removed (so you can pull it anywhere without a bag or vehicle - Unrealistic)​

You cannot fly ramps per rules (Realistic - depending on context anyway)​

You must facilitate other peoples roleplay (unrealistic?)​

Breaking realism / Serious Roleplay (Realism, realism realism) this rule lists a bunch of realistic things, like ramps as I said before, sedans going up hills that clearly wouldn't do that irl. and a few others.​

I could keep going, but as you can see, we have a somewhat balanced (maybe still leaning towards realism) type of ideology or rule set. My point, is that we aren't on one side or the other, we're on both. and that is specifically why I decided to make this post today. Because I think we should be one or the other, not both.

Why is this a problem?; Let me paint a picture for you so you can come to your own conclusion. 4 criminals decide that they are going to do a stupid but fun unrealistic RP scene, lets say that this RP is like them claiming ownership over the airport (LSIA), anyone who enters has to wear a dunce hat or something bad will happen (kick in the shins) its all going well until the police arrive. Having it where most police have a realistic mindset, police MIGHT decide to arrest people involved, ending that RP prematurely.

In a server completely based around realism and realistic roleplay, it makes total sense for a cop to arrest someone restricting access to the airport, trespassing on said airport, threatening and even assaulting people upon entry. This would be grounds for arrest. But if it was total realism for both cops and crims would this even happen anyway or vice versa would cops even arrest anyone or let the scene go on?

The scenario I listed has happened, many times, I've seen it happen myself, I've even been apart of scenes where it happened. This issue is server wide, it isn't just cops being realistic and crims being unrealistic, it happens everywhere. Criminals might decide to be realistic and do a store robbery and instantly leave when they are done, giving no RP for cops, just as cops might shut down a unrealistic (illegal) scene ending a scene early. And the problem with this is that our server rules are so in the middle it messes everything up. So for example, someone might be punished for leaving a store early and not providing roleplay for police. which contradicts the "Breaking Realism / Serious Roleplay" Rule, because that title comes with a generalization that your roleplay should remain realistic in nature which I'm unsure if that was intentional or not.

One would assume, maybe a new player, or even old, that we are a realistic roleplay server, as we have many a rule for realistic rp. But one could also assume that we are a Unrealistic RP server, as we have many a rule for unrealistic rp. So its very confusing for me and maybe others on what RP they should be doing. Should criminals be realistic to not break the "Breaking realism / serious rp" rule or should crims wait at store robberies for cops to show and have RP? - Should police not interrupt on going scenes that would clearly require an arrest or allow them for the betterment of RP or should cops step in when crime is done in the city and make an arrest?

This is why I am so confused today, and why I think this is the root of many problems. What if, instead of police acting realistic in most scenarios they acted unrealistically, how would this change RP or what if criminals changed and they went back to providing evidence on every scene - acting realistically. What if our ideologies were completely in line, where we are both realistic or unrealistic. Would the server be better, would the server be worse?

This is why I am making this post, because I need an answer to a few questions.

• Would the server be better or worse if our ideologies were completely in line?
• Would the server be better or worse if our ideologies were realism based?
• Would the server be better or worse if our ideologies were unrealistically based?
• Am I right or wrong here or am I going insane?
• Should the rules change?

This is where input is required from the community.

Now my final final thing here, I promise this is like a paragraph then I'm done;

If I am correct - How do we change?
It all starts with rules, if we go one way or another our rule set should reflect it and our server name should be not named "Serious RP" because that's kinda confusing. The next thing to change is law enforcement training, if we go realism then it would remain the same. but if we go unrealistic then it needs to change a bit (this would require a ton more discussion ofc) another thing that would have to be done would be making sure everyone in the server understands via posts from LE or meetings that this change is happening and explaining a wide range of scenarios and how to act within a realistic manor or unrealistic manor so then people can come to their own conclusion and make the correct decisions on scenes that we're not explained. (this should prob happen first tbh) I think if people were banned for unrealistic or realistic RP (idk if any were but their could be some) their ban's should be overturned or rereviewed within a potential new ruleset and ideology.

That's all thanks for reading (And no there is no TL;DR LOOK AT MY NAME YOU THINK I CAN DO THAT?)

 

[waff]

I believe that you are correct. When a crim does a scene, and cops shut it down due to cop roleplay or vice versa (arresting because of illegal activities, etc.), I have seen the Criminals get upset because their rp was "wasted, ruined, and toxic." It has happened multiple times, and it doesn't seem to be improving. On the front of Realistic or Unrealistic, the server is both. In 90% of the scenes, I am on both sides (cop and crim) are Realistic and Unrealistic. We all need to figure out a middle ground on this discussion and work through it.

 

[Buster]

I'm fully in the mindset of labeling it serious or realistic will always limit the RP because people are just trying to stay within the lines.

I feel everyone's goal should be to have fun until it gets to a point that's getting unreasonable. I've had instances where I've waited for cops to give them RP and then I immediately get tased and I know for a fact the opposite happens (criminals leave immediately).

I personally feel some people take their roles in character too seriously. Criminals become grinders and cops become robots.

I've made the suggestion that whenever possible leadership steps in when a scene is toxic to provide constructive criticism and I still think this is the best way to get to a healthy RP scenario.

p.s. I'm not on a ton anymore so my opinion may be a bit dated.

 

[PapaGinger]

This is what I think, at the end of the day, no matter what you believe, this is a video game in a fictional world. I do believe it's important for roleplay and actions to feel real and grounded, BUT, they should feel real and grounded in the world that has been created, not in the world we actually have.

I don't think it necessarily matters if something would really happen in real life, it matters what would make a scenario more enjoyable. Cops have a unique opportunity, not too dissimilar to criminals, but still unique. They can have absolute control over a scene, they can build it up, or they can break it down. I am not saying that crims can't do this, they absolutely can, but the control a crim/civ has gets immediately dwarfed by a cop's control.

When it comes to realistic RP I don't see how that is doable, especially given that crims aren't a mechanic and something for cops to jail. They are people that should be interacted with accordingly, and there must be a line in the sand between what is good for gameplay and what is good for roleplay, the realistic/serious argument to me seems irrelevant in accordance to that.

The problem I face is it just seems that people get bitter and resentful towards the "other side," crims hate cops, cops hate crims. I also dislike the views towards "grinders" and the viewpoint that they should be punished. I DO see a problem with people who would rather do jobs that don't have player interaction during peak times, but to punish people for playing on the server during off hours seems ridiculous and ironic.

To go back to that realistic argument, I think the line for "realistic roleplay" for crims/civs is quite literally non-existent (not a bad thing). The thing is cops are much more cut and dry, they have rules they must follow, regulations they must keep, etc. while crims/civs have more independence to interact and do what they want to. So if someone does something that is within reason, but might not take place "realistically" I don't think it would be fair to hark on them if it makes a situation more enjoyable.

Here is another problem I have seen, especially in relation to the Whitelist. People are far more emotional, more willing to break down a situation, and far more irritable. I think this is because people feel more invested in the server than before, so if something happens that shouldn't or if a scene gets out of control the emotions run higher than before.

Also to go back to the police training, I may not fully understand it, but I don't see a reason for the police to change up what they do because someone may do something that isn't "realistic." I think that the police do respond accordingly to a fair bit of situations, regardless of whether they are grounded in reality. The problem you do run into is in the case of someone doing something unrealistic and it is met with hostility and drama.

To summarize my views, I don't think that anything should be viewed as "realistic vs. unrealistic." Instead, I think we play a video game, where we pretend to be people in a world where things happen that might/wouldn't happen in reality. To then put the pressure on every interaction, and every action to be titled and sorted under these two genres is unfair. Also, one thing I really want to drive home, besides what I typed up before, is that if someone does do something out of the ordinary or unrealistic, such as a crim taking a drop in a car, or an event happening that causes a suspension of belief, just ROLE WITH IT. It helps no one to barge into a scene and break it down because you don't agree with it or you think it is unrealistic. Again, this is a video game, where we pretend to be characters in a FICTIONAL world, so I do not see a problem with things that happen that suspend belief as long as they are fun and enjoyable and create good RP.

A long, but not as long as Crane's, post.

 

[eXcOm_SoL]

Ultimately, being one or the other isn't a viable option in my opinion since the game mechanics don't fully allow this. Also, being fully realistic or fully non-realistic would eliminate a lot of fun / funny / cool situations on either side of the coin. My opinion on this is unrealistic gameplay with serious ROLEPLAY is what is needed. What I mean by this is that both cop and crim need to understand that it's not always about the "win". Let me explain;

COP SIDE:
Try to find ways to extend scenes versus going for an arrest ASAP. This is why we have things like PIT timers. Think of the same principles when it comes to after a pursuit. Should we immediately taze someone on foot? If they break cuffs, should we immedidately taze them again therefore ending the scene? When we take someone into custody should we immediately shove them in the back of the patrol car and haul ass to MRPD? My answer to all of these is no. Give crims the extended chances to get creative in ways to still get away. Maybe their buddies pick them up etc. Obviously, for the crim, once they are caught they are caught but we have mechanics in the server today that are there to provide opportunities for creative getaways and no one gets to use them when cops just chase for a little bit, PIT, foot bail, taze, cuffs, jail.

Special Scenarios : If crims set up something out of the ordinary, find ways to investigate and help elaborate whatever story the crims are trying to play out. Again, going for the immediate "win" kills the mood and eliminates the opportunites for people's storylines to progress. This is a major factor right now, in my opinion, on why we don't see much gang activity, street racing etc... Crims know that if they do these things, they will likely be caught very quickly and therefore what's the point? Again, it's all about balance. If crims can get away with more things in the city, it's going to allow them to expand their stories and expand the opportunities for more / different situations than what we are used to seeing today.

Vehicle impounding: Do not impound vehicles on scene immediately and especially not directly in front of other players. We have tow trucks in the city and have people running them. Utilize them. Stay on scene and wait for the tow... maybe the arrested crims buddies show up and try to recover the car before tow gets there? Maybe there's storylines the tow truck owners are trying to play out? By essentially "deleting" the vehicles from a scene it just eliminates more chances for RP

CRIM SIDE:
We need to think ahead on full plans. As of today, here's what I've noticed;

Convenient stores:
Option A) Rob store solo with no hostage and hope cops don't show up or rob store solo in Paleto and hope cops don't drive all the way up there.
Option B) Rob store with a buddy and 1 hostage, request free passage no spike strips and a chase happens. That chase is typically just drive until you crash or lose cops or running on a motorcycle into alleyways and tunnels.
*** Try and get more creative here to set up scenes. If you are doing a "hit and dip" leave a /scene about camera footage or clues on the ground to at least give the cops something to try to investigate. If you are doing a hostage scenario, think of more creative getaways. Block off roads, have buddies jump in and set up distractions etc. Think of other things rather than hoping on motorcycles and hitting the tunnels etc.

Banks:
These have been fairly decent recently however more and more people are doing very simple plans of drive away into a chase and immediately jumping on motorcycles and heading for tunnels etc. Again, get more creative here. Set up multiple vehicles, blockades, distractions etc.

Basic Traffic Stops:
Cop / Crim: Roleplay these out.... too many times as a cop I see players act like a traffic stop just doesn't even matter and they don't treat cops with any respect and therefore it just kills the mood. What would it feel like to do that in real life? Act this out...

General time in the city: I often see crims act like they can do whatever they want around cops and act toxic rather than going with the idea that you wouldn't act this way in front of a cop in real life (this is where realism comes into play). If you want cops to be respectful of you and your character, understand that being toxic isn't going to help you in that endeavor. Cops have to remember the same thing, if they just want to go for the "win" they are likely going to lose out on fun scenarios even in the most basic of settings.

Long story short here is that it's all about balance. We have to find a way to work together within the realistic/unrealistic GTA world we all love and enjoy. While understanding that the ROLEPLAY is the thing that needs to stay the most important aspect of the city in order for it to flourish and grow. If we don't, it quickly reverts back to a GTA Tycoon game of grinding money etc. Think deeply about your character's story. What are their goals? What is there perma-death scenarios? What storylines can you help start / grow / change and how can each of us be helpful in that process?

Disclaimer: I generally suck at writing out my thoughts well and hope this all makes some sort of sense... I'm much better at articulating these sorts of ideas via voice channels

 

[jeremy_duck]

To summarize my views, I don't think that anything should be viewed as "realistic vs. unrealistic." Instead, I think we play a video game, where we pretend to be people in a world where things happen that might/wouldn't happen in reality. To then put the pressure on every interaction, and every action to be titled and sorted under these two genres is unfair. Also, one thing I really want to drive home, besides what I typed up before, is that if someone does do something out of the ordinary or unrealistic, such as a crim taking a drop in a car, or an event happening that causes a suspension of belief, just ROLE WITH IT. It helps no one to barge into a scene and break it down because you don't agree with it or you think it is unrealistic. Again, this is a video game, where we pretend to be characters in a FICTIONAL world, so I do not see a problem with things that happen that suspend belief as long as they are fun and enjoyable and create good RP.

I think just rolling with in is the only true thing that will happen, instead of having all these rules you loosen them and teach / tell people to play a little bit more loose if its an obvious set up scene for RP or generally just extending the scenes more.

 

[wasabielf]

I've brought it up before and I'll bring it up again. The rules on the server are restrictive to the point where it would be wrong to even THINK of RPing a scenario without bringing the rules into play.

I haven't stopped hearing about this "realistic vs. unrealistic" debate regarding the server for a while now. I agree that rules need to be changed. The rules right now are so contradictory to themselves that it causes this divide.

Example: "Corruption, illegal and unethical behavior of a law enforcement officer, is prohibited." This is an entire chunk of roleplay thrown out of the window, and at the bottom line is unrealistic. Every member of law enforcement is to be treated as a person, because they are. People speak to other people. It is the fundamental point of roleplaying -- interacting with others. When it comes down to a cop leaning away from the law, there is a crack in the persona of the police officer which begins to show that there is a person underneath the badge and uniform.

Internal affairs for the law enforcement group has had absolutely nothing to do for almost the entirety of the life of the server. There is not even a chance for corruption on the law enforcement side as it is completely outlawed and against server rules, and thus there is nothing for IA to investigate.

As a criminal, there is no benefit to me speaking to a police officer or even befriending them, aside from small things such as having a higher probability of being let off with a warning on traffic stops, or maybe a lighter fine/jail time which can be achieved any way if I cooperate during booking. It looks bad from a criminal perspective to see a known criminal befriending police officers for what seems like no real gain at face value.

Another point: there are rules that give police an advantage over a regular civ/crim. "No robbing On-Duty Law Enforcement or EMS." Why? Because it's "OP"? And so the solution is to provide a bubble of rules around certain characters that could have the OPPORTUNITY of being interacted with to better a player's journey on the server? This "rule bubble" that surrounds cops (and paramedics) is frankly UNREALISTIC.

If a cop or a paramedic is robbed, it could be used as a tool in the future for the person robbing them. Example, I wanted to start robbing EMS because my character believes that the price for treatment is so high and, as the president of an outlaw motorcycle group, is not going to take a legal route. It would be sort of like a protest, but in a more illegal manner. But it's against the rules, so my short and potentially beneficial tirade is out.

Another real world example: The Red Regime was in town and were flaunting their new weaponry. The police had downed and apprehended them all, and a group of criminals had the idea of robbing the police convoy of the weaponry. However, after deliberate planning, it was cut short because I remembered -- on duty cops can't be robbed. The whole plan was trashed until we got clarification that we can only rob the police of the Red Regime's weapons. By the time the clarification reached to the group, the convoy was around the corner from MRPD and no one was ready to move.

There are scenes that stop DEAD IN THEIR TRACKS because of the rules that loom over every player's head. Rules aren't meant to be feared, they are meant to be followed.

The strong arm of the law is to be feared, and I remember that being drilled into everyone's mind on the server during the last few months of 2021. But why is law enforcement the only entity that is to be feared? Why can there not be hardened criminals who work their way up the ladder and have their name be feared on the streets? Why can their not be any law enforcement afraid of cop killers and organized gangs? Because they wear a badge and a goofy uniform with some silly hats, and can carry around laser beams which can and are dispatched at a moment's notice?

People become criminals because they have made the conscious decision in their minds that the rewards of breaking the law heavily outweigh the risks (jail times and fines). Criminals that have consciously decided to break the laws and then subsequently fear them is unrealistic.

When lawmakers create laws, they use the most broad terminology as possible to cover a wide aspect of points. Then, when a law is broken, it is a judge's job to determine whether or not the crime committed falls under the category of a law break. Rules for companies, forums, and even roleplay video games should be the same way.

Rules should be created with a very general and broad terminology, without giving case examples, in order to cover the point. There should not be any specifics in rulings. The LE team act as the judges, who then analyze cases (reports) brought to them in order to make a decision on whether or not the actions committed fall under the category of a rule break.

The rules, and the server, should not specify whether or not something is "realistic" or "unrealistic". Everyone has varying opinions on everything somewhere down the line. It is up to no one to determine the fun we have on the game is realistic or unrealistic. Scenarios in RP will always have the ability to be disputed on either the realistic or unrealistic side due to the limits of scripts and game mechanics. That's why it's generally not discussed on server rules. It just doesn't make sense to make that distinction. Video games, as of the time of writing this, cannot mimic real life. Hence why almost anything will be unrealistic.

So my opinion? Generalize the rules a lot more than what we currently have in regards to in character rules. Get rid of the stigma of realistic vs. unrealistic RP. We're here to have fun. As Reggie once said, "If it's not fun, then what's the point?" If a more in-depth conversation with on-time responses is something you desire, contact me on discord.

Thanks for reading, here's a picture of gizmo or something idk

some edits because i am dum

Edit 1: I have never understood the idea of criminals staying back, especially on a high-risk job, to give the police a chance. I will do what I can to make an untraceable illegal event traceable, such as making several /911a local calls with a description of the event and/or people that perpetrated the event. But I, in no way, will expect people to leave scenes during a quick police response job. A smash and grab is just that -- smash the register, grab the cash. You leave afterwards. You know, to not get caught. I am not going to sit there, nor do I expect other people to sit there, and leave scenes to create a cookie crumb trail leading back to me while the police are on their way, code 3 at 160 mph. THAT is unrealistic.

Edit 2: I realize that there are specific things that require OOC Discussion. I'll specifically talk about the long gun in bag thing. No one's prison pocket is big enough to carry a long gun concealed. So either we A) create a rule regarding wearing a bag when carrying a long gun (which itself would be an issue because there are small but big guns that are fully automatic that some may consider long but others may consider not long), or B) we add a script that automatically slings big weapons and are visible (which would then possibly make the use of concealing them in a bag unavailable to the player, unless the script is tweakable for that stuff). Option C) No ruling is made, carry on. It is ultimately an LE decision.

 

[PapaGinger]

I've brought it up before and I'll bring it up again. The rules on the server are restrictive to the point where it would be wrong to even THINK of RPing a scenario without bringing the rules into play.

I haven't stopped hearing about this "realistic vs. unrealistic" debate regarding the server for a while now. I agree that rules need to be changed. The rules right now are so contradictory to themselves that it causes this divide.

Example: "Corruption, illegal and unethical behavior of a law enforcement officer, is prohibited." This is an entire chunk of roleplay thrown out of the window, and at the bottom line is unrealistic. Every member of law enforcement is to be treated as a person, because they are. People speak to other people. It is the fundamental point of roleplaying -- interacting with others. When it comes down to a cop leaning away from the law, there is a crack in the persona of the police officer which begins to show that there is a person underneath the badge and uniform.

Internal affairs for the law enforcement group has had absolutely nothing to do for almost the entirety of the life of the server. There is not even a chance for corruption on the law enforcement side as it is completely outlawed and against server rules, and thus there is nothing for IA to investigate.

As a criminal, there is no benefit to me speaking to a police officer or even befriending them, aside from small things such as having a higher probability of being let off with a warning on traffic stops, or maybe a lighter fine/jail time which can be achieved any way if I cooperate during booking. It looks bad from a criminal perspective to see a known criminal befriending police officers for what seems like no real gain at face value.

Another point: there are rules that give police an advantage over a regular civ/crim. "No robbing On-Duty Law Enforcement or EMS." Why? Because it's "OP"? And so the solution is to provide a bubble of rules around certain characters that could have the OPPORTUNITY of being interacted with to better a player's journey on the server? This "rule bubble" that surrounds cops (and paramedics) is frankly UNREALISTIC.

If a cop or a paramedic is robbed, it could be used as a tool in the future for the person robbing them. Example, I wanted to start robbing EMS because my character believes that the price for treatment is so high and, as the president of an outlaw motorcycle group, is not going to take a legal route. It would be sort of like a protest, but in a more illegal manner. But it's against the rules, so my short and potentially beneficial tirade is out.

Another real world example: The Red Regime was in town and were flaunting their new weaponry. The police had downed and apprehended them all, and a group of criminals had the idea of robbing the police convoy of the weaponry. However, after deliberate planning, it was cut short because I remembered -- on duty cops can't be robbed. The whole plan was trashed until we got clarification that we can only rob the police of the Red Regime's weapons. By the time the clarification reached to the group, the convoy was around the corner from MRPD and no one was ready to move.

There are scenes that stop DEAD IN THEIR TRACKS because of the rules that loom over every player's head. Rules aren't meant to be feared, they are meant to be followed.

The strong arm of the law is to be feared, and I remember that being drilled into everyone's mind on the server during the last few months of 2021. But why is law enforcement the only entity that is to be feared? Why can there not be hardened criminals who work their way up the ladder and have their name be feared on the streets? Why can their not be any law enforcement afraid of cop killers and organized gangs? Because they wear a badge and a goofy uniform with some silly hats, and can carry around laser beams which can and are dispatched at a moment's notice?

People become criminals because they have made the conscious decision in their minds that the rewards of breaking the law heavily outweigh the risks (jail times and fines). Criminals that have consciously decided to break the laws and then subsequently fear them is unrealistic.

When lawmakers create laws, they use the most broad terminology as possible to cover a wide aspect of points. Then, when a law is broken, it is a judge's job to determine whether or not the crime committed falls under the category of a law break. Rules for companies, forums, and even roleplay video games should be the same way.

Rules should be created with a very general and broad terminology, without giving case examples, in order to cover the point. There should not be any specifics in rulings. The LE team act as the judges, who then analyze cases (reports) brought to them in order to make a decision on whether or not the actions committed fall under the category of a rule break.

The rules, and the server, should not specify whether or not something is "realistic" or "unrealistic". Everyone has varying opinions on everything somewhere down the line. It is up to no one to determine the fun we have on the game is realistic or unrealistic. Scenarios in RP will always have the ability to be disputed on either the realistic or unrealistic side due to the limits of scripts and game mechanics. That's why it's generally not discussed on server rules. It just doesn't make sense to make that distinction. Video games, as of the time of writing this, cannot mimic real life. Hence why almost anything will be unrealistic.

So my opinion? Generalize the rules a lot more than what we currently have in regards to in character rules. Get rid of the stigma of realistic vs. unrealistic RP. We're here to have fun. As Reggie once said, "If it's not fun, then what's the point?" If a more in-depth conversation with on-time responses is something you desire, contact me on discord.

Thanks for reading, here's a picture of gizmo or something idk

some edits because i am dum

Edit 1: I have never understood the idea of criminals staying back, especially on a high-risk job, to give the police a chance. I will do what I can to make an untraceable illegal event traceable, such as making several /911a local calls with a description of the event and/or people that perpetrated the event. But I, in no way, will expect people to leave scenes during a quick police response job. A smash and grab is just that -- smash the register, grab the cash. You leave afterwards. You know, to not get caught. I am not going to sit there, nor do I expect other people to sit there, and leave scenes to create a cookie crumb trail leading back to me while the police are on their way, code 3 at 160 mph. THAT is unrealistic.

Edit 2: I realize that there are specific things that require OOC Discussion. I'll specifically talk about the long gun in bag thing. No one's prison pocket is big enough to carry a long gun concealed. So either we A) create a rule regarding wearing a bag when carrying a long gun (which itself would be an issue because there are small but big guns that are fully automatic that some may consider long but others may consider not long), or B) we add a script that automatically slings big weapons and are visible (which would then possibly make the use of concealing them in a bag unavailable to the player, unless the script is tweakable for that stuff). Option C) No ruling is made, carry on. It is ultimately an LE decision.

I totally agree, it seems very strange to me that we have an elaborate application process for our WHITELISTED server, yet we are clouded with rules that either inhibit or wreck roleplay opportunities or that are absolutely no brainer for a whitelisted server. To me it feels almost insulting to not allow certain more serious and entertaining RP to take place, I do not fully understand why it is prohibited, but to go from a public server where almost everything was allowed to a whitelisted one where almost nothing is allowed makes no sense. Making these little rules to step on the toes of not just a large portion of crim RP, but also large parts of cop RP makes no sense. I would love to break down the rules with someone and give my opinions with a group on what needs to stay and what needs to go, I think, especially with the growth in players and maturity we need to begin to break down what is hindering roleplay and what is expanding it, starting with the rulebook. Rules need to be written, rules need to be looked at, and the punishments for "wrongdoings" based on an already nonsensical rulebook need to be readdressed and should be addressed properly.

On a side note, but someone relevant to the rules conversation, punishment for punishment's sake is old school. Taking a scene that was already controversial and having it lead to bans when it could have led to a learning opportunity for roleplay helps no one. I don't know why this needs to be said, but banning someone for a mistake or a misunderstanding or implying someone should "know better" as a reason for a ban is childish. IF someone didn't know what they did was a rule break, and they didn't do it to be toxic, then why would that ever lead to a ban. Maybe I don't understand our rules and what constitutes a ban, but banning someone to help them "learn" is incredibly misguided, the way people learn is by learning...not through punishment and scolding.

 

[Marcoboy24]

Im gonna go ahead and keep it short. People need to learn to adapt. If you role up on acene that is unrealstic, adapt to it. If you role up on a scene that is realistic, adapt to it. Im here to have fun and creating a hatefull scene is never fun. Role with what you got, and if you dont like it, either suck it up or bring it up to LE wether it be a suggestion or a player report.
You cant control all, just roll with it.

Ps: grinders are gonna grind.

 

[Alex]

I'm not going to respond to everything, solely because there's a lot to unpack, but I think there's a misconception as to why the rules you mention are in place.

Example: "Corruption, illegal and unethical behavior of a law enforcement officer, is prohibited." This is an entire chunk of roleplay thrown out of the window, and at the bottom line is unrealistic. Every member of law enforcement is to be treated as a person, because they are. People speak to other people. It is the fundamental point of roleplaying -- interacting with others. When it comes down to a cop leaning away from the law, there is a crack in the persona of the police officer which begins to show that there is a person underneath the badge and uniform.

This is a rule for multiple reasons. Firstly, it's a thing because the risk factor in allowing corrupt cops is significantly higher than ever before, both for the economy, and for peoples' roleplay. If a cop decides to go spawn in 50 Mk2 Carbines and throw them into the economy, the economy is now busted and there's no recovering from that. If a cop decides to begin abusing permissions to further IC or OOC relations according to their own plans, we now have a server problem. And, despite what you may think, it's not possible for IA to investigate corrupt cops. It's just not. There's no cameras, fingerprints, evidence trackers, or any way of gathering proof aside from what someone may have claimed the saw.

Internal affairs for the law enforcement group has had absolutely nothing to do for almost the entirety of the life of the server. There is not even a chance for corruption on the law enforcement side as it is completely outlawed and against server rules, and thus there is nothing for IA to investigate.

IA currently does have a purpose, just throwing that out there.

As a criminal, there is no benefit to me speaking to a police officer or even befriending them, aside from small things such as having a higher probability of being let off with a warning on traffic stops, or maybe a lighter fine/jail time which can be achieved any way if I cooperate during booking. It looks bad from a criminal perspective to see a known criminal befriending police officers for what seems like no real gain at face value.

If this is your opinion on the matter, i'd argue that you haven't befriended the right cops. I won't speak for others, but I will say Stone treats crims differently depending on how they've treated him. Demarcus Washington has attempted to murder cops many many times with no remorse. He will be shown no mercy. Lucas Yoshi has never been confirmed by Stone as someone who has attempted to take someone's life (obviously he has, but im unaware of that in character.) and he has been respectful to Stone the majority of the time. He will be shown kindness and respect where possible. This whole point varies from cop to cop, and how you respond to that or what you expect from each cop is on you to determine.

Another point: there are rules that give police an advantage over a regular civ/crim. "No robbing On-Duty Law Enforcement or EMS." Why? Because it's "OP"? And so the solution is to provide a bubble of rules around certain characters that could have the OPPORTUNITY of being interacted with to better a player's journey on the server? This "rule bubble" that surrounds cops (and paramedics) is frankly UNREALISTIC.

This rule isn't in place to make the Cops OP, or even to give them an advantage. This rule was created because the police have an obligation to provide roleplay for the entire server. When you rob or kidnap a cop (unless it's in roleplay), you're taking away that person's ability to provide roleplay to 20+ other people in game.

The majority of my reply wasn't focused around the main point of the thread, but I think some clarification on your quite well written post was necessary. By no means do I disagree entirely with anyone who's commented, but please keep this in mind when you look at how our rules make the server "unrealistic."

 

[PapaGinger]

I'm not going to respond to everything, solely because there's a lot to unpack, but I think there's a misconception as to why the rules you mention are in place.


This is a rule for multiple reasons. Firstly, it's a thing because the risk factor in allowing corrupt cops is significantly higher than ever before, both for the economy, and for peoples' roleplay. If a cop decides to go spawn in 50 Mk2 Carbines and throw them into the economy, the economy is now busted and there's no recovering from that. If a cop decides to begin abusing permissions to further IC or OOC relations according to their own plans, we now have a server problem. And, despite what you may think, it's not possible for IA to investigate corrupt cops. It's just not. There's no cameras, fingerprints, evidence trackers, or any way of gathering proof aside from what someone may have claimed the saw.



IA currently does have a purpose, just throwing that out there.



If this is your opinion on the matter, i'd argue that you haven't befriended the right cops. I won't speak for others, but I will say Stone treats crims differently depending on how they've treated him. Demarcus Washington has attempted to murder cops many many times with no remorse. He will be shown no mercy. Lucas Yoshi has never been confirmed by Stone as someone who has attempted to take someone's life (obviously he has, but im unaware of that in character.) and he has been respectful to Stone the majority of the time. He will be shown kindness and respect where possible. This whole point varies from cop to cop, and how you respond to that or what you expect from each cop is on you to determine.



This rule isn't in place to make the Cops OP, or even to give them an advantage. This rule was created because the police have an obligation to provide roleplay for the entire server. When you rob or kidnap a cop (unless it's in roleplay), you're taking away that person's ability to provide roleplay to 20+ other people in game.

The majority of my reply wasn't focused around the main point of the thread, but I think some clarification on your quite well written post was necessary. By no means do I disagree entirely with anyone who's commented, but please keep this in mind when you look at how our rules make the server "unrealistic."

There is a lot to say about these takes, but I am gonna keep it brief from point to point.

First, the cop corruption, to say that corruption is "selling ARs to crims" is crazy. This in my opinion isn't even an example of corruption but just exploiting. Corruption would be along the lines of paying a cop off to let you go, or to have a cop being paid to let someone know if there is a warrant out for them or to search their property, etc.

Also to the second point about IA, you first say that IA has no way to investigate corrupt cops then go on to say it has a purpose. Besides "investigating" a cop doing something wrong in the field and giving them a short punishment, I don't see it/have never seen it doing practically anything. Also, what is the point of an investigation unit if it gets immediately halted by a cop turning off their body cams?

For the last point, I agree that cops offer roleplay to a large group, but to also cut off massive avenues of roleplay just because it prevents a cop from pulling someone over or being at a bank scene seems somewhat ridiculous. Does it not offer interesting, unique, and fun roleplay (if done right) to allow these types of roleplay to occur. Are there not other cops on duty who could investigate the kidnapping, and even more who could still go on patrol while the kidnapping scene is occurring...

I still agree with wasabielf entirely, rules are put in place that prevents many, many avenues of roleplay. It feels that we are being nannied and our roleplay is being filtered heavily, and in some cases, it appears that cops have all these rules protecting them while crims/civs have none. I am not saying that crims/civs need more rules to protect them, because with "slightly" fewer rules from civ to civ there tends to be more interesting roleplay. Some of these rules seem almost insulting, I think that we should be able to handle serious and intense roleplay without having to message someone to make sure they are alright IN THE MIDDLE OF A SCENE. We are a whitelisted server, we should be able to understand and participate in good scenes that might be stressful, to understand how to make a good story, and to understand that at the end of the day you should be having fun in a video game!

To be clear I don't see a problem in checking up on someone after a scene has concluded but DMing someone right in the middle of a scene is frustrating and takes people out of the moment.

 

[jeremy_duck]

Also to the second point about IA, you first say that IA has no way to investigate corrupt cops then go on to say it has a purpose. Besides "investigating" a cop doing something wrong in the field and giving them a short punishment, I don't see it/have never seen it doing practically anything. Also, what is the point of an investigation unit if it gets immediately halted by a cop turning off their body cams?

To be clear, IA/HR (I.e; some members in State police - Seed, adam, alex) does investigations on officers who have been reported by civilians or other members of law enforcement, You will rarely if ever see the out comes of this, that information is usually kept at a high command or command level, and its usually just handled and punishments are issued. This is the way that works.

in a world where we have in the server MDT Logs, Strong Evidence systems and logging of weapon removal is a world where corruption will be allowed, but until then I don't think LE will add it, because thats a lot of power to give someone without virtually any way (as of right now) to combat it.

-unless someone snitches, but Id rather be able to find out by evidence and investigation.

 

[jeremy_duck]

I think my final point on this thread will be this.

I like doing Realistic RP so I will continue to do that, but I will do it in a way that impacts players less, to not railroad other people into my type of RP, however I will be railroading people into my type of realistic Medical RP, because otherwise your just dead and bored.

When it comes to a lot of things I will mostly hinder myself, so taking my weapon out of the trunk, or RPing player damage etc, but I will try to roll with the flow more when it comes to other peoples RP scenes, additionally my main mentality will be extending roleplay. So pursuits should be longer and I will authorize pits less, traffic stops will include more RP from me = longer. and I will try to not ruin peoples scenes that they clearly are making, so if I see someone obviously having a gathering im going to leave and let it happen, or survey the area and document it, but not stop it.

I will still try to make police die less and work on all police tactics as a whole to improve them and make chases harder / more rewarding for crims. but the end all be all goal for this would be officer safety.

Ty for the responses everyone, I think it really helped me fix some issues with my roleplay, and hopefully it helped you too.

 

[RedDragonKnight]

To be clear, IA/HR does investigations on officers who have been reported by civilians or other members of law enforcement

and then absolved of wrongdoing with video of disposing of people off a cliff after shooting them in the face mmhmm mmhmm

 

[OmgWtfNamesTaken]

I am going to say what I have said since I started on this server.

If you want realism, you have to have systems in place to facilitate it or else people will not follow suit.
If you cannot get system in place to facilitate realism in the areas you want, you will have to due without it.
You cannot reasonably expect every person to "find a way" to do it themselves because 9/10 times they will not. The weapons in bags thing could have been rectified by having a rifle "slung" on a persons back when it is in their inventory. This would make transportation in vehicle trunks etc. actually useful. This also shows people you have a rifle so they can act accordingly.

Cop corruption should be an absolute 0 IMO. The issue with a corrupt cop is that they have way too many perks with access to weapons and equipment. They have special powers that regular players cannot use and they have much more influence than a regular character in terms of roleplay. I do however think that police should be able to be robbed when downed. PD weapons when taken off of an officer and found on a criminal should carry harsh penalties such as... raid of players properties. Increased fines. Increased jail time. The trade off is, it's easier to get a rifle this way than it is to craft it. Corruption is how you're going to have a whole lot of people mad about stupid stuff. If you want to play a criminal, play a criminal. If you want to play a cop, play a cop. Don't try and be both at the same time. You have multiple character slots for a reason.

Last but not least, consistency with the rules. There's a million times I have done something and it was fine, just to be told later on it was not fine by another person. Consistency is key. This is a whitelisted server with a small population. If you cannot be consistent with the player base as it is now, then you have absolutely no hope being consistent with the player base when it is 100/200/300 etc. This will drive players away because they don't want to be asking themselves every 5 seconds "IS THIS OKAY?!!?"

EDIT: as for bank trucks... Shoot on sight should be fine. If the police are getting rocked constantly, maybe it's time to look into different tactics. OR make the trucks harder to rob so that it's not happening as constantly.

 

[Meyers]

Hello,

So today in the saga of (Jeremy makes long winded posts) I wanted to discuss something that was brought up on my stream yesterday, that brought me to an important realization.

I want to preface this potential discussion point, I don't think this issue that I will discuss at length can be fixed. Unless it is universally agreed on or at least understood, not to mention the amount of work it would actually take to fix this problem. But I'm talking about it anyway because I think it should be understood and I also believe that it is the root of many problems.

Also, if you are curious on why I make long winded/ Very long posts ill explain that here. It takes time and effort to explain and understand a point to the fullest extend of my own understanding of said point, I need many paragraphs to allow the reader (you) to fully grasp what I am talking about in as much detail as possible. This is important that you understand why I am saying what I am saying and why I think it and how I even came to this conclusion to give you a better understanding and more importantly less chance on you misunderstanding me.

Okay, so what the heck are we talking about today?

Realistic Roleplay & Unrealistic Roleplay

Generalization:
Cops are Mostly Realistic Role-players
Criminals are Mostly Unrealistic Role-players

This is a generalization and not actually factual(not completely), here's what is; Some cops do both Hyper realistic/realistic and unrealistic RP, so you might see a cop go to the back of his/her car to grab their weapon(Realism) and you might see the same cop instantly put a scuba suit in a water pursuit while running.

In the same vein you might see a criminal set up an RP to provide roleplay for others (unrealistic as they would get themselves caught) and you might also see a criminal drop evidence for police to find (Realistic)

To be clear, this isn't flame or bad manors towards criminals or police, this is making a distinction that I believe exists in one form or a smaller one. I want to point this out so we as a group can actually figure out together if this problem exists past my own thinking/experience. Because, I could be 100% wrong here, but having a thought experiment for a few hours on stream yesterday made me think of this as an actual problem. Let me explain a bit more.

Previously in the server (Pre-Whitelist);

a large amount of players leaned toward the realistic side of RP, so you would see criminals leave evidence, you would see back and forth's between criminals and cops in OOC chat for evidence recovery, players would be expected to RP vehicle and player damage, and you were required to remove long guns from bags / vehicles - Most of these things being in the server rules to my memory. so in brief, the server was basically a Semi Realistic server with some unrealistic stuff sprinkled in.​

And I must remind you, I'm not complaining about realism or unrealism, or even saying unrealistic RP is bad or the other is good, this is simply a point of discussion, not complaint.​

Here's where I think we are right now (After Whitelist);

the rules around the requirement for your long gun were removed (so you can pull it anywhere without a bag or vehicle - Unrealistic)​

You cannot fly ramps per rules (Realistic - depending on context anyway)​

You must facilitate other peoples roleplay (unrealistic?)​

Breaking realism / Serious Roleplay (Realism, realism realism) this rule lists a bunch of realistic things, like ramps as I said before, sedans going up hills that clearly wouldn't do that irl. and a few others.​

I could keep going, but as you can see, we have a somewhat balanced (maybe still leaning towards realism) type of ideology or rule set. My point, is that we aren't on one side or the other, we're on both. and that is specifically why I decided to make this post today. Because I think we should be one or the other, not both.

Why is this a problem?; Let me paint a picture for you so you can come to your own conclusion. 4 criminals decide that they are going to do a stupid but fun unrealistic RP scene, lets say that this RP is like them claiming ownership over the airport (LSIA), anyone who enters has to wear a dunce hat or something bad will happen (kick in the shins) its all going well until the police arrive. Having it where most police have a realistic mindset, police MIGHT decide to arrest people involved, ending that RP prematurely.

In a server completely based around realism and realistic roleplay, it makes total sense for a cop to arrest someone restricting access to the airport, trespassing on said airport, threatening and even assaulting people upon entry. This would be grounds for arrest. But if it was total realism for both cops and crims would this even happen anyway or vice versa would cops even arrest anyone or let the scene go on?

The scenario I listed has happened, many times, I've seen it happen myself, I've even been apart of scenes where it happened. This issue is server wide, it isn't just cops being realistic and crims being unrealistic, it happens everywhere. Criminals might decide to be realistic and do a store robbery and instantly leave when they are done, giving no RP for cops, just as cops might shut down a unrealistic (illegal) scene ending a scene early. And the problem with this is that our server rules are so in the middle it messes everything up. So for example, someone might be punished for leaving a store early and not providing roleplay for police. which contradicts the "Breaking Realism / Serious Roleplay" Rule, because that title comes with a generalization that your roleplay should remain realistic in nature which I'm unsure if that was intentional or not.

One would assume, maybe a new player, or even old, that we are a realistic roleplay server, as we have many a rule for realistic rp. But one could also assume that we are a Unrealistic RP server, as we have many a rule for unrealistic rp. So its very confusing for me and maybe others on what RP they should be doing. Should criminals be realistic to not break the "Breaking realism / serious rp" rule or should crims wait at store robberies for cops to show and have RP? - Should police not interrupt on going scenes that would clearly require an arrest or allow them for the betterment of RP or should cops step in when crime is done in the city and make an arrest?

This is why I am so confused today, and why I think this is the root of many problems. What if, instead of police acting realistic in most scenarios they acted unrealistically, how would this change RP or what if criminals changed and they went back to providing evidence on every scene - acting realistically. What if our ideologies were completely in line, where we are both realistic or unrealistic. Would the server be better, would the server be worse?

This is why I am making this post, because I need an answer to a few questions.

• Would the server be better or worse if our ideologies were completely in line?
• Would the server be better or worse if our ideologies were realism based?
• Would the server be better or worse if our ideologies were unrealistically based?
• Am I right or wrong here or am I going insane?
• Should the rules change?

This is where input is required from the community.

Now my final final thing here, I promise this is like a paragraph then I'm done;

If I am correct - How do we change?
It all starts with rules, if we go one way or another our rule set should reflect it and our server name should be not named "Serious RP" because that's kinda confusing. The next thing to change is law enforcement training, if we go realism then it would remain the same. but if we go unrealistic then it needs to change a bit (this would require a ton more discussion ofc) another thing that would have to be done would be making sure everyone in the server understands via posts from LE or meetings that this change is happening and explaining a wide range of scenarios and how to act within a realistic manor or unrealistic manor so then people can come to their own conclusion and make the correct decisions on scenes that we're not explained. (this should prob happen first tbh) I think if people were banned for unrealistic or realistic RP (idk if any were but their could be some) their ban's should be overturned or rereviewed within a potential new ruleset and ideology.

That's all thanks for reading (And no there is no TL;DR LOOK AT MY NAME YOU THINK I CAN DO THAT?)

Can I get a tldr

 

[wasabielf]

Can I get a tldr

nope

 

[PapaGinger]

Last but not least, consistency with the rules. There's a million times I have done something and it was fine, just to be told later on it was not fine by another person. Consistency is key. This is a whitelisted server with a small population. If you cannot be consistent with the player base as it is now, then you have absolutely no hope being consistent with the player base when it is 100/200/300 etc. This will drive players away because they don't want to be asking themselves every 5 seconds "IS THIS OKAY?!!?"

I totally agree with this. My biggest concern and problem right now is how rules are handled and how blatantly LE chooses sides. I have had people try and convince me that we have a fair, balanced, and equal team that judges and punishes people equally. But time and time again I have never, not even once, witnessed that to be the case. This is a whitelisted server, the bar should be raised, this doesn't mean that you should ban people for one wrong decision, but instead treat them as a person and explain to them why they did something wrong, and why the rules are the way they are. Again, I know people will say that I am not seeing the full picture, or I am viewing it from one perspective. But I have been around for a good long time now and if anything it is getting worse. The clear favoritism and special treatment, how one person can RDM, break NLR, ruin entire scenes, exploit, etc. and get a slap on the wrist, while others face weeks of ban time. Then when anyone has anything to say they get met with this customer service tone with some copy-paste BS telling them to take their complaints and shove them up their ass. I have had a hard time picking out any situations I have had over the last few weeks and saying that they are fun, you can't even walk down the street in this game anymore without some cop on some power trip, or some LE member abusing perms or just taking every bit of roleplay for themselves. This has turned from something fun into what seems like an LE Sandbox, or a cop simulation.

I really wish that this wasn't like this, but I wholeheartedly believe that the whitelist and the behavior of staff over the months have degraded to a point that I can't expect to enjoy myself when launching the game. I wish the staff would behave like human beings instead of fax machines saying the same prewritten messages in response to any feedback. I have been asked time and time again to bring it to the forums and now I have. I have written what I believe and I stand by what I said above. I can't sit around in a place that simply does not care, and if I get one more manufactured response from an LE member instead of one with an ounce of care or thought I will lose my mind.

I also don't want any of my words to be twisted or mixed like so many other words have been, I do genuinely care about the state of this community, but at this point simply caring is not enough, and I have tried to explain myself dozens of times and give my views and opinions, but that never changes a thing. I hope that at some point in the future this place becomes hospitable again because I would love to come back to this server, just not in the state it is in now.

 

[coopa]

I totally agree with this. My biggest concern and problem right now is how rules are handled and how blatantly LE chooses sides. I have had people try and convince me that we have a fair, balanced, and equal team that judges and punishes people equally. But time and time again I have never, not even once, witnessed that to be the case. This is a whitelisted server, the bar should be raised, this doesn't mean that you should ban people for one wrong decision, but instead treat them as a person and explain to them why they did something wrong, and why the rules are the way they are. Again, I know people will say that I am not seeing the full picture, or I am viewing it from one perspective. But I have been around for a good long time now and if anything it is getting worse. The clear favoritism and special treatment, how one person can RDM, break NLR, ruin entire scenes, exploit, etc. and get a slap on the wrist, while others face weeks of ban time. Then when anyone has anything to say they get met with this customer service tone with some copy-paste BS telling them to take their complaints and shove them up their ass. I have had a hard time picking out any situations I have had over the last few weeks and saying that they are fun, you can't even walk down the street in this game anymore without some cop on some power trip, or some LE member abusing perms or just taking every bit of roleplay for themselves. This has turned from something fun into what seems like an LE Sandbox, or a cop simulation.

I really wish that this wasn't like this, but I wholeheartedly believe that the whitelist and the behavior of staff over the months have degraded to a point that I can't expect to enjoy myself when launching the game. I wish the staff would behave like human beings instead of fax machines saying the same prewritten messages in response to any feedback. I have been asked time and time again to bring it to the forums and now I have. I have written what I believe and I stand by what I said above. I can't sit around in a place that simply does not care, and if I get one more manufactured response from an LE member instead of one with an ounce of care or thought I will lose my mind.

I also don't want any of my words to be twisted or mixed like so many other words have been, I do genuinely care about the state of this community, but at this point simply caring is not enough, and I have tried to explain myself dozens of times and give my views and opinions, but that never changes a thing. I hope that at some point in the future this place becomes hospitable again because I would love to come back to this server, just not in the state it is in now.

i Agreee

 

[Cryptic Strolski]

So I just came across this post, no idea if it's still deemed relevant, but here's my quick two cents.

Serious roleplay is what drew me to this server in the first place. I wanted to roleplay a cop. When I read serious roleplay, I interpreted it to mean realistic.

Sure we can have sprinkles of unrealistic based on the capability of the mechanics, however, I find most unrealistic scenes to be more annoying as an officer than fun. I find unrealistic roleplay just serves to create one off scenes rather than focusing on your character as a living breathing person with dreams and ambitions that may lead them to a life of crime or not to reach those.

People create these "One off" events that turn out to include things which if we were to carry into later serious roleplay, they'd be upset because "It was just for the event".

I personally do not like one off events, I find them disruptive to the flow of roleplay. I am a fan of those in positions of power being responsible for leading a higher level of story for those below their positions to get involved in and clash over time.

Now can we have unrealistic scenes that are still serious? Yes. But I am hopeful that people will not get upset when the police force guns down the 6 robots shooting at cop cars and drops them in the smelter to ensure of their disposal.

But I do not believe in ruleplay over roleplay. I believe if you are robbing a bank, a store, a civilian, your goal should be to escape even if that means getting away before police arrive. I believe it is the police's responsibility to properly maintain coverage over the entire state to attempt to prevent these crimes from succeeding. I believe that sometimes criminals will simply get away with crime because we are busy handling other crimes, AND THAT'S OK.

We don't need COMPLETE balance to be a realistic roleplay server, we just need realism to an extent. Cops don't always need to win, cops need to train better, cops need to pick their battles and at times take the loss to later pursue a different method of approach whether that be through the courts or whatever.

I firmly believe in letting scenes play out the way they should realistically even if that leads to an all out gunfight and a gang trying to hold down their turf by making cops that come around go POP because of recent attempts by PD to retake that portion of the city.

These are my two cents on an early morning before coffee.

P.S. I also include driving like a moron in front of cops to get them to pull you over so you can have a pursuit to be unrealistic roleplay and it's cop baiting. It is not fun, it is not enjoyable, please stop that. Also, when did realistic driving go out the window? Everyone's zipping around the city and when we do try to pull them over, they just zip away rather than RP with us for a simple speeding ticket.