Toy Fort Spawn Camping Question?

Is Camping ontop of the bed and shooting down between the cracks okay?

  • Yes

    Points: 28 63.6%
  • No

    Points: 12 27.3%
  • Other

    Points: 4 9.1%

  • Total voters
    44
  • Poll closed .

DaTaco

I made one post
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
13
Hey,
Just Curious, What do you guys think.. Should a Demoman be allowed to camp ontop of the bed and shoot down between the cracks?
My Thoughts:
1. He can shoot from above the spawn down and catch roughly 1 out of 2 people coming out from the spawn
2. Only Two classes can really get to him.
3. I think it's an exploit in the map but what does everyone else think?

DaTaco
 
I was in the server today and here are my thoughts. Admins (eG's) from both sides had different opinions. One argument was that it was not an exploit because there were hp and ammo up there, making it legit to camp up there. Another was that (well, basically Da Taco's arguments). I do not feel that it is an exploit. I'm pretty sure that you can hit/kill the demoman from below the bed. The trick is to avoid being killed by the sticky bombs. (let your teammates rush out first, then follow after the bombs have detonated) The fact that only 2 classes could get to them shouldn't be a problem either. When a demoman camps my spawn I usually switch to a soldier, rocket jump, then finish him off. I agree that spawn camping is annoying, but I do not feel that this is an exploit.
 
well i just came out of the server and people were doing that but im pretty sure they need to fix it
 
well as i have already said this is ego's officail ruling on exploitation:

"shooting through holes between walls, standing in thin air, being able to get into the opposing team's spawn"

It doesn't violate any of these, and you can shoot the people who are doing it, therefore it's not a exploit or glitch.
 
It's not a glitch, and at this moment is legal, but I believe It's one of those things that should be fixed if another toyfort map was released.
 
I believe the intentions of the map were to allow people to shoot from off the bed, (which I see no problem in doing) however shooting from down presents it at an unusual angle that prevents most from shooting back up. ie if I fired up as a sniper, scout or engineer then more then 99% of the time I would not hit him ONCE before he killed me.
 
Viable tactic. It's a viable place to stand, you can reach it, feet on the ground, nothing wrong with it. If there were four or five doing it I might see a problem because you couldn't use an uber to stop them because it only lasts so long, but, for example, when I did it, I got three kills in one trap. That made Captain Calle, one of the three explodees, come up and melee me out of spite. That's a good thing.

Wait, no. It's an awesome thing. :)
 
Spawn camping is considered a perfectly legit tactic by eGO. There is almost always a way to defeat the person spawn camping as one person just can't hold back an entire team. In the case of Toyfort, a demoman or soldier can get on top of the bed to take him out quite easily. I believe a sniper might also be able to target the person on the bed if he gets at the right angle. And, once low grav is enabled (which is being looked into), it will be even less of an issue.

As far as a map update goes, I do believe the version that is on the Custom Maps Rotation server is an older version of Toyfort. I know when we had a 24/7 Toyfort server, we had a version that had an invisible wall covering the gap by the bed. There may be a reason why this version was not chosen for the rotation, however.
 
Also - the sticky issue can be cleared out with a pyro too. Amazing that folks still use the back burner.
 
i think it's ok...because like everyone above has said..you are able to reach it, feet on the ground, med packs, amo..all that good stuff...i don't however agree with the fact that the sides aren't symmetrical, one side (i forget which) has a distinct view advantage over the other...i know this has been brought up in the past, and am not sure if it has been resolved...but that's just my .02 it doesn't, however, prevent me from playing this wonderful map : )
 
Long post is long.

What I say will likely just be an echo of what others before me have said, but I'll just say it anyway. Things like this have likely been discussed by the counsil and among the other admins, many many times. But the final desicion on wether something is an exploit is as follows:

Can they be killed? If a teleporter exit, or other engineer building is built there, can it be destroyed? In other words, can this make the other team, not simply overpowered, but invincable?

There is a line between good but aggrivating, sometimes judged as unfair tactics that are hard to overcome, and providing your team with outright immunity to loss.

I will use 2 examples here, one on both sides of this fence:

The demoman is standing above your spawn in Toyfort, above your bed. He has been reaining down a sticky hell for the past 3 minutes, and its about to cost you the game. It is annoying, however, he is not unkillable. Weapons can be shot up where the stickies are coming from, and soldiers and other demomen can reach him. Make him a priority target, and act accordingly. If you cannot muster enough team coopoeration to kill this solitary target wich has been coiling you in a locker room for that long, your problem is not the demoman, rather, it is your team's innability to combine forces to remove an obstacle. Do what you can as an indivisual to fix this, and hope for the best from there.

Meanwhile in Gravelpit. An engineer has found a hole in the maps floor, allowing him to secretly build under the ground outside his enemy's respawn. His sentry, dispenser, and teleport exits are underground, but can still shoot those on the surface above it. Even if the other team left their spawn with several ubers at once, they can do nothing to stop the engineer's massacre, no matter how skilled they are. He is invincable, and Blu Team wins the game as a result. This is an exploit. Not only is it an exploit, it is greifing, and is something wich should be punished with a swift and final retribution.

These examples clearly have a line carved, the differences are easy to spot and make it very noticable. Other times however, it is not, and so deeper thought must be excersized. So, a third example:

An engineer on Warpath has found a way to get on top of the building above his second point and build there. It is quite obvious that the creators of this map never intendid this, as to get there as that class, you have to jump on what appears to be an invisable platform jutting from the vertical cliff wall. Regardless, he builds there, and his sentry mows down dozens of attackers. So he has done something clearly not meant for this map. But, it is not considered an exploit, and here is why. The building is open, prime sniping territory. A smart sniper from the other team could wipe him out, along with his machines. Soldiers and demomen can hail the building with explosives, well out of range of his sentry. In the end, it is no different than any of the sentry placements anywhere else on the map, perhaps an even worse position than most. In no way does this make his team immune to the other's advance if the team is dedicated to wiping his entrails all over the canyon.

I hope these examples have shown those who were still curious, and provided insight to those that knew but were still unsure. If you run into a situation like the third one, stop and think, ask yourself those three questions.
 
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IMO I think that it is okay to be able to shoot through the crack- but it should be fixed since it can be very annoying.
 
No exploit. The term "Spawn camping" is when as soon as you spawn you get killed, you do not need to leave the spawn, you choose to. This is called "Spawn controlling"

This, in Toyfort, is needed as well, if you are going to cap the last point, (the one right next to spawn) it is a legitimate tactic. An uber can easily run out, or, as has been said before me, let someone else run out so you can get out quickly and kill them. I used to be a Toyfort regular, to get rid of the stickys, just compression blast em away, or use a sticky on the inside of the door, get someone to open the door and blow them away with a sticky.

~midget31394
 
ive put some hrs in on toyfort when it was a 24/7 server.

I thought there was discussion (or a version out there) that had a permanent Teleporter for each team that went to the bed. this way you could get more than just 2 classes up there.

the only real issue i have with the bed is not being able to get up there easily. Otherwise, shooting through cracks that are built into the map on purpose, anything goes.

ive always felt that if team was getting spawn camped for any period of time you wernt working well enough together as a team and should be motivation to work together better.

while frustrating i like the challenge.
 
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