warpath2 updates

[ack]

Hi

I have been in contact with sacrifist, author of cp_warpath2, about fixing bugs and making minor game play changes. He indicated hes moved onto other things (HL2:CTF) but was gracious enough to provide me with the vmf file so I can make changes.

I am looking for assistance in identifying addition bugs not listed below, plus start a discussion about possible game play changes.

The general plan will be to roll a cp_warpath2_u1 map that contains only bug fixes, then move onto u2+ for game play changes.

Here is the list of bugs I have so far

• Boxes in the middle cp to get up to the ridge aren't the same for both team [FIXED]
• In a number of the spawn rooms, players spawn facing the wall [FIXED]
• Can build a sentry too close to cp 2 & 4 by standing on the ramp when building [FIXED]
• Can get stuck on the first right turn in the lower cave when coming from under the bridge [FIXED]
• Ladders on cp 2 & 4 block you when you walk by them [FIXED]
• Parts of the raised edge of the bridge can block you [FIXED]
• Can wedge yourself between the canyon top and sky in a number of locations [FIXED]
• Can get stuck behind the 'capture point' barricade at the red base [FIXED]
• Ramps going from under bridge to upper cp 3 weren't the same for both teams [FIXED]
• Couple brushes did match up correctly on the catwalk at each base allowing you to see behind the map [FIXED]
• No non-team viewpoint (ie just joined the server) [FIXED, points at the bridge so you know which team is winning]
• Spy effect on rock face near garage at cp2&4 [TODO]
• Spy effect on rock face near canyon choke point [TODO]
• Can build teleporters in spawn rooms at cp3 [TODO, need to know the trick to build them in order to fix]

Here are the list of game play changes I think we should look at:

• Increase setup time by 10-15 seconds. (reason: Allow all medics to be uber ready by the time they reach the middle cp. Currently it requires being power uber'd by a demo/soldier)
• Raise the roof! err sky. With the exception of the middle area the sky needs to be raised everywhere. (reason: Demo's often top out on the sky when doing gren jumps. I really think it should be possible for an demo to multi-grenade-uber jump from the truck area onto the roof of the last cp)
• Remove audible "security warning" when a player of the opposite team breaches your base perimeter. (reason: Make life a bit harder for the defending team to know when people are coming. I know I use it as notification to kick up the spam, especially on the right side sniper building at the base)
• Reduce the size of the ammo/metal pack at the fence area near the canyon choke point. (reason: Make it harder for the winning team's engies to get re-establish if the losing team uber's in and blows everything up)
• Disable current method for engies to get onto the roof of cp 2 & 4 (reason1: engies spend too much time just trying to get up there, reason2: once they are established up on the roof, they are reluctant move equipment forward when their team takes the middle cp, reason3: seems to lead to teammates being lazy spammers. demo/soldier/heavy just spamming from the roof instead of doing something useful.
• Add medium health and small ammo/metal pack outside the arch at each base (reason1: encourage engies on the losing team to build out past the arch, reason2: attacking classes on the losing team often run out of ammo and low on health, reason3: in general make both sides of the canyon choke point even with regards to resources)
• Reduce ammo/metal pack on right side sniper building at each base. (reason: with the new spy update I think it gives the spy too much extra cloak time)
• Reduce max round time from 30 to 20 minutes and increase time added per capture from 2 to 4 minutes. Something like this was suggested in another thread and I think its a good idea. (reason: being stuck in a stalemate/deadlock for 30 minutes = boring)

If you have more game play ideas please provide a reason for them.

thx
-ack

 

[B_Zeal]

Reduce ammo/metal pack on right side sniper building at each base. (reason: with the new spy update I think it gives the spy too much extra cloak time)

I like this one, spies can stay hidden pretty much forever if the opposite team has middle, takes a whole search party to get them out

it wouldn't make that much difference cause it's still pretty easy to stay hidden and harass, but at least this way we wouldn't get almost unlimited cloak if running away

 

[Josey Wales]

I like them all with the exception of one, and I think they would definitely help out gameplay to be less turtling. The one that I do not like is the security warning at the last point and that is because that would too much benefit spies in stabbing snipers (me). It is also helpful to catch spies that are just zapping teleporter entrances all game. I say keep the med pack at 50% there and leave the security warning. All the other fixes and especially raising the ceiling would be awesome for the game. From one Warpathian to another.

Sir Josey Wales

Edit: also removing the latern by the sniper corner on the last points would be a huge plus, that thing is very prohibitive and can give snipers away by being able to see dots/ the sniper in that corner can be body shotted without ever poking out. I'll keep them coming if I can think of more.

 

[Shadow7]

I think that position between the 1/2 cps and the 4/5 cps should have better flanking. Possibly adding a cave which goes from in front of the archway, wide left to open up about directly across the fences creating a sort of figure 8 shape with the center beind around the 2/4 respawn locations.

I think this might also reduce the amount of sniper campy goodness where they're all looking at the same spot so there isn't a huge sniperfest.

What does everyone else think of this idea, i don't know if it's neccesarily amazing but its food for thought, please don't just say ewww no, be constructive.

 

[Quest]

Everything sounds good except for the removal of the Security Warning. I like it and it helps the defense.

Also, I agree with Josey that we need to remove that lantern. I use it all the time to know when an enemy sniper is creeping out from behind it. You can easily see their dot and snipe them before they even get a chance.

Keeping the engineers off the roof of the cp2 and cp4 is great.

On question, the fix for the ramps on the mid point. There was one ramp that was harder to get off of than the other. I would get stuck at the top. I hope when you made them the same you went with the one that doesn't have the little bump at the top that gets me stuck. Hopefully, it isn't just me

 

[Ice hearted killer]

sounds great gd luck, thanks for getting rid of security warnings they have got me killed so many times

 

[!Woodstock!]

I would leave the security warning. It adds a small sense of realism of having a perimeter security system.

Also on the topic of security, I think we should look at the bug that allows engys to build a tele behind the wood fence in the tunnels. This bypasses breaking down the fence and triggering the server wide message, "Blue base has been breached." There really is no advantage to not breaking down the fence since the other team can hear the noise of building down there anyways.

Set up time: can leave as is. It distinguishes non-warpath medics from warpath medics. I can always have an Uber ready when I get to the bridge without stopping. There really is no issue here.

CP #2: Sounds good to make it non-buildable for the reasons stated.

Final notes: I would be wary of making any significant changes to the map layout as it is. I would advise against adding or removing any areas/rooms/paths/etc... The map is very balanced as it is. With the fix of the bugs/glitches Warpath should be perfect.

!Woodstock! aka. The Dark Uberer, Master of Warpath.

 

[Nstg8R]

I would have to agree with Woodstock in refraining from any significant changes to the map. I find it to be quite balanced if a team will work together . Changing a few ammo/health packs to make spys work harder never hurts though.

 

[The Godfather [FIN]]

Good that there was updates to cp_warpath 2, because it rules, hopefully it makes the gaming experience a lot better

 

[Plork]

Dude, this is awesome. Such a great map but it still needs some tweaking.

Can wedge yourself between the canyon top and sky in a number of locations [FIXED]

This bothers the heck out of me. There is one point in particular right by the tunnels leading to the bridge on the 2 and 4 side where you can actually see through the tunnel if you get wedged there.

Raise the roof! err sky. With the exception of the middle area the sky needs to be raised everywhere. (reason: Demo's often top out on the sky when doing gren jumps. I really think it should be possible for an demo to multi-grenade-uber jump from the truck area onto the roof of the last cp)

Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes. I've finally got a good beat on sticky jumping over the arch to the last point but too often I'll just smack the invisible roof.

Reduce max round time from 30 to 20 minutes and increase time added per capture from 2 to 4 minutes. Something like this was suggested in another thread and I think its a good idea. (reason: being stuck in a stalemate/deadlock for 30 minutes = boring)

I like this idea.

Ok, now these I don't know about....

Increase setup time by 10-15 seconds. (reason: Allow all medics to be uber ready by the time they reach the middle cp. Currently it requires being power uber'd by a demo/soldier)

I think it's fine the way it is. This makes demos and soldiers have to injure themselves once the gates open so the medics can get that uber up quicker and leads to more 'teamwork' in my opinion. A good medic with players injuring themselves should easily have the uber ready by the time they reach the bridge.

Remove audible "security warning" when a player of the opposite team breaches your base perimeter. (reason: Make life a bit harder for the defending team to know when people are coming. I know I use it as notification to kick up the spam, especially on the right side sniper building at the base)

I think you have to leave that but maybe change the point at where it goes off? Maybe make it not trigger until someone is on any raised point at the final base?

Reduce the size of the ammo/metal pack at the fence area near the canyon choke point. (reason: Make it harder for the winning team's engies to get re-establish if the losing team uber's in and blows everything up)

After playing the other version of Warpath for a while where it's like this, I really like the fence to have the bigger health and ammo packs. I'd say it really helps others besides the engies most of the time anyway.

Disable current method for engies to get onto the roof of cp 2 & 4 (reason1: engies spend too much time just trying to get up there, reason2: once they are established up on the roof, they are reluctant move equipment forward when their team takes the middle cp, reason3: seems to lead to teammates being lazy spammers. demo/soldier/heavy just spamming from the roof instead of doing something useful.

I wouldn't want roof access to be completely disabled, but maybe make it a bit easier to get up there. Possibly steps or a ladder. This can make it so Spies can be more useful than just ubering demo's and soldiers at that point. I love when stuff is built on top of that point. Taking away a spot for an engie to build could mess up the flow of those points and possibly make it even easier to destroy everything on 2 & 4 for those attacking.

Add medium health and small ammo/metal pack outside the arch at each base (reason1: encourage engies on the losing team to build out past the arch, reason2: attacking classes on the losing team often run out of ammo and low on health, reason3: in general make both sides of the canyon choke point even with regards to resources)

If anything I'd just say this helps those attacking more. Once they get around that corner and can get to the health and med pack, odds are in their favor. There are plenty of good places for engies to build their dispensers so this isn't necessary on defense.

This is something I've noticed a couple times. I rarely play spy so I've never even checked out how it works exactly, but it's there and isn't kosher.

 

[DrunkenSailor]

Whatever changes are made I would suggest a little here and a little there so that the new map download doesnt take long. If it does its going to kill the server population, no one will wait 5 mins to get on a server. Slight changes over time will work better then a wholesale change at once, just my opinion.

 

[sittingduck]

CP 2&4, sentery on the ramp = harmless, normaly gets killed by someone in tunnal.(including medics, don't ask)

CP 2&4 sentery above the point, add a ladder or stairs to it would make it spy zappable.

Change the spawn first(it would be more usefull.)

 

[Adilor]

I have to disagree with changing the building ability atop 2/4. It's a very rewarding position for an engie that can manage to get up there. It's spy proof, for one, and is an excellent defensive vantage point. It's not invincible, though, and can easily still be taken out by a decent demo. The tradeoff of the time it takes to get up there versus its usefulness is well balanced, in my opinion.

 

[ack]

On question, the fix for the ramps on the mid point. There was one ramp that was harder to get off of than the other. I would get stuck at the top. I hope when you made them the same you went with the one that doesn't have the little bump at the top that gets me stuck. Hopefully, it isn't just me

Yeah that was one of the reasons I even looked at the ramps. The getting stuck part should be gone.

Final notes: I would be wary of making any significant changes to the map layout as it is. I would advise against adding or removing any areas/rooms/paths/etc... The map is very balanced as it is. With the fix of the bugs/glitches Warpath should be perfect.

I have no plans for any layout changes, except for jehuty's secret tunnel . I like the flow of warpath as is and would be happy if we just got a bug fixed version in place.

I wouldn't want roof access to be completely disabled, but maybe make it a bit easier to get up there. Possibly steps or a ladder. This can make it so Spies can be more useful than just ubering demo's and soldiers at that point. I love when stuff is built on top of that point. Taking away a spot for an engie to build could mess up the flow of those points and possibly make it even easier to destroy everything on 2 & 4 for those attacking.

The other possibility would be to add the warpath1/dispenser method for getting up there.

I personally dont think building up there should be allowed per the reasons I gave, maybe we should have a poll/vote about it. (no change, not allow, allow with dispenser, allow with ladder)

CP 2&4, sentery on the ramp = harmless, normaly gets killed by someone in tunnal.(including medics, don't ask)

You can still build on the ramp. The issue was if you were standing on the ramp, you could jump and build equipment up on the flat of the point.

Whatever changes are made I would suggest a little here and a little there so that the new map download doesnt take long. If it does its going to kill the server population, no one will wait 5 mins to get on a server. Slight changes over time will work better then a wholesale change at once, just my opinion.

I am not sure I follow on the download time on small vs wholesale changes. Any change to the map would require a full download by the client, right?

-ack

 

[xosniper]

And THIS is why I would vote ack for TF2 President.

 

[Plork]

Man, I just hope you keep it so building on top of 2&4 remains. It was a big part of Warpath on TFC, granted the engie got up there with a nade jump.

 

[AzzNik]

Ack,

The majority of changes are wonderful. Thanks for taking the time and initiative to do this. You are the man!

The only comments I have on the proposed changes is:

a) the question about whether to allow engie access on cap point 2. I would say it's either eliminate it altogether or make it easier like Plork suggested with a ladder. Both will eliminate engies wasting time trying to get up there and being resistant to moving up. I'm for either one. If there are ladders, then there should be 2 of them to allow spies better access.

b) I'm fine with the set up time like it is. I agree with Woodstock about this being a defining characteristic of Warpath.

c) I wish the round time deal was easier. I wish we could make it so that the team that has the middle cp has 10 mins to advance or their spawn is pushed back to their first cp. This would allow the other team to mount a serious challenge to the bridge and prevent as much bridge camping. idk just a thought.....

I can't wait to play the map without the little bugs.

Thanks again Ack.

 

[DarkHawk101]

I agree with ack on the secruity warning i hate that when im spy.

 

[AzzNik]

I agree with ack on the secruity warning i hate that when im spy.

I'm sure that was part of the design.........

 

[RobInactive]

I'd quite like to see some polishing in a latter version, with more props and diversity of textures and perhaps some higher res textures maybe? just to fill the map out a bit.