2FORT - Opinions?

=[Ga]= AutoDMC

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What would make 2FORT better?

I ask this because I love playing the map, but I find that there are too many stalemates for my taste; it's too hard to get the other intel, and it's too easy to protect your own, unless you team is REALLY screwing around. And it's too easy for each class to go off and do their own thing; Engies make a huge deathworks in one area, snipers becomes zombies on the sniperdeck, scouts always take the same routes...

So, I'm wondering... what would make 2FORT zing? Here's my ideas for 2.1FORT:

- Get rid of the awning over the bridge. It takes away almost all the good sniping lines of sight and relegates snipers to countersniping.

- Take away the extra cover on the sniper deck. That gazebo area in the middle? Gone. The Side corridor walls? Gone! Replace that with a small covered area where the snipers emerge, but otherwise the sniperdeck is just a deck.

- Replace all that cover with waist high walls around the sniperdeck. Easy to jump over from your side; make it a bit harder to send stickies and rockets randomly up, but you can still jump up there if you try. If snipers want cover, they have to crouch for it. No more cornersniping!

- More health and ammo strewn about. There needs to be more places where health and ammo can spawn.

- Intel Room can now be accessed through the upper doorway (upper deck with the spiral staircase) or through the sewers. Change the distance between the intel and the other guys. Now you HAVE to defend your sewers and your fort. They're both entryways; currently, if you go through the sewers, you STILL have to go through the front door.

- Open up the Intel room. Instead of a spiral staircase, a catwalk on the side of the intel chamber. I'm thinking a Panopticon design (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Presidio-modelo2.JPG) where you either emerge from the sewers or come down the catwalk and then have to breech the tower to grab the intel.

- Ladders from the middle water area. If you want to brave the snipers, you can get back into the action without having to hoof it all the way back to your base.

- Easier access to the sniper deck for the enemy. I'm thinking a ladder, perhaps just inside the front door (maybe in the room between the front door and the courtyard) that allows access to the sniper deck, without having to do all the running around.

The idea is to speed up 2FORT.

Turbine, in some ways, in my opinion, was a better CTF map than 2FORT. The wide open areas in the middle had almost no area that any class couldn't get to. The distance between intel rooms wasn't as bad as 2FORT; classes other than Scout could cap intel before you died of old age. There were plenty of places to build sentries, but even those were wide open, giving you multiple routes of attack. Now, I won't say it's a perfect CTF map (which map do we have a regular and instaspawn for, and which do we no longer have a server for?) But I think it encouraged more varied gameplay and more all-around speed.

Comments, suggestions, ideas?
 
The only thing I can think of that might be cool is to put two small catwalk type bridges across the water on either side (same height) of the bridge. Something small enough to fall off but big enough for only one person. no side walls or anything.
 
i think the ladder would only be good if you took of the awning on the bridge because then there would be too many ways to access the sniper deck
 
Making intel reachable from the sewers would be good as it'd prevent domination from the one SG right by the spawn.
 
I think that if you made most of those changes I would actually consider playing on 2fort lol.
 
the only thing i would add is maybe stairs or ladders in the water, so that you can get from the water back onto the bridge.
other than that, i like the way 2fort is set up.
 
Don't change a classic. Period.

I would have agreed.

Then I saw Star Trek Remastered:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGfCNSLzt4w&feature=related[/ame]

The classics are good for being classics. When Leonard Nemoy was told about Star Trek Remastered, he responded with "Shame on you!" After he had seen an episode, he said "Wow!"

The goal is to not change 2FORT completely, or throw it away, or disgrace it, but to make it even that much more fun to play.

And if we're talking about Classics... how about the 2FORT from the Beta without the awning? Or the 2FORT from TFC, which actually has some of the things I've mentioned in my list?
 
2fort is already too much of a sniperfest... the frist few things you suggest would only make it worse... lol....
 
I am a regular 2fort player (IR) *waits for boos and hisses* and yes it can be stalematey, but if you have good communication and ubers it easy. Thats why I enjoy playing with friends more than stragers, its easier to talk to them and get coordinated. 2fort does have some major flaws ( getting stuck at the ramp outside the entrance etc.) but it is a pretty good map class balance wise. I hope you take time to read my comments. :)

~M

- Get rid of the awning over the bridge. It takes away almost all the good sniping lines of sight and relegates snipers to countersniping.

Bad Idea, that leaves heavies, soldiers and scouts useless. The deck was put there so that it wasnt completely useless, and hey not all snipers countersnipe. When I play I aim to kill the real classes. I kill snipers if I have to.

- Take away the extra cover on the sniper deck. That gazebo area in the middle? Gone. The Side corridor walls? Gone! Replace that with a small covered area where the snipers emerge, but otherwise the sniperdeck is just a deck.

This could work in some ways but effectively you are overpowering the sniper even more by letting him have a free pick of anyone thats walking over there.

- Replace all that cover with waist high walls around the sniperdeck. Easy to jump over from your side; make it a bit harder to send stickies and rockets randomly up, but you can still jump up there if you try. If snipers want cover, they have to crouch for it. No more cornersniping!

This is quite a nice idea, but I'm guessing that was the point of the middle area only having waste high cover, so its people that choose to cornersnipe, and you cant tell people how to play.

- More health and ammo strewn about. There needs to be more places where health and ammo can spawn.

This is probably needed in one place. Have a small ammo and medikit outside of each base. Otherwise it is fine.

- Intel Room can now be accessed through the upper doorway (upper deck with the spiral staircase) or through the sewers. Change the distance between the intel and the other guys. Now you HAVE to defend your sewers and your fort. They're both entryways; currently, if you go through the sewers, you STILL have to go through the front door.

This is an interesting option, but I'm pretty sure the sewers are good for flanking around the enemies that are on the bridge. So moving that closer to the intel could ruin a perfectly nice flanking route and make it even more of a tutrtlefest on the bridge.


- Open up the Intel room. Instead of a spiral staircase, a catwalk on the side of the intel chamber. I'm thinking a Panopticon design (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Presidio-modelo2.JPG) where you either emerge from the sewers or come down the catwalk and then have to breech the tower to grab the intel.

Another interesting idea. Instead of this you could maybe just remove the walls into the actual intel area so its just one large room instead of two. This is good to get in and out but screwes up defence as SGs may not be able to cover the whole room.


- Ladders from the middle water area. If you want to brave the snipers, you can get back into the action without having to hoof it all the way back to your base.

GAH! NEVER! Ladders do not fit TF2, they break up the gameplay and you have to think about doing it whereas in most maps you get around without thinking. Ladders are a big no no in most custom TF2 maps.


- Easier access to the sniper deck for the enemy. I'm thinking a ladder, perhaps just inside the front door (maybe in the room between the front door and the courtyard) that allows access to the sniper deck, without having to do all the running around.

As above, thats why the awning was put there :)
 
You know what we need?! WE NEED MOOOOOOOOAR HEADCRABS ON ZEE BRIDGE :d and maybe add gman behind the intell room where all the comps are :o.

Nah but seriously Midget is right.

And if you have seen the very earlier version of tf2, you should know that the 2fort's bridge did not have a cover. The outcome was not pretty...there were dots...on everyone's faces D: .....and that's why we now have a cover on top of the bridge :d
 
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What would make 2FORT better?

I ask this because I love playing the map, but I find that there are too many stalemates for my taste; it's too hard to get the other intel, and it's too easy to protect your own, unless you team is REALLY screwing around. And it's too easy for each class to go off and do their own thing; Engies make a huge deathworks in one area, snipers becomes zombies on the sniperdeck, scouts always take the same routes...

So, I'm wondering... what would make 2FORT zing? Here's my ideas for 2.1FORT:

- Get rid of the awning over the bridge. It takes away almost all the good sniping lines of sight and relegates snipers to countersniping.

- Take away the extra cover on the sniper deck. That gazebo area in the middle? Gone. The Side corridor walls? Gone! Replace that with a small covered area where the snipers emerge, but otherwise the sniperdeck is just a deck.

- Replace all that cover with waist high walls around the sniperdeck. Easy to jump over from your side; make it a bit harder to send stickies and rockets randomly up, but you can still jump up there if you try. If snipers want cover, they have to crouch for it. No more cornersniping!

- More health and ammo strewn about. There needs to be more places where health and ammo can spawn.

- Intel Room can now be accessed through the upper doorway (upper deck with the spiral staircase) or through the sewers. Change the distance between the intel and the other guys. Now you HAVE to defend your sewers and your fort. They're both entryways; currently, if you go through the sewers, you STILL have to go through the front door.

- Open up the Intel room. Instead of a spiral staircase, a catwalk on the side of the intel chamber. I'm thinking a Panopticon design (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Presidio-modelo2.JPG) where you either emerge from the sewers or come down the catwalk and then have to breech the tower to grab the intel.

- Ladders from the middle water area. If you want to brave the snipers, you can get back into the action without having to hoof it all the way back to your base.

- Easier access to the sniper deck for the enemy. I'm thinking a ladder, perhaps just inside the front door (maybe in the room between the front door and the courtyard) that allows access to the sniper deck, without having to do all the running around.

The idea is to speed up 2FORT.

Turbine, in some ways, in my opinion, was a better CTF map than 2FORT. The wide open areas in the middle had almost no area that any class couldn't get to. The distance between intel rooms wasn't as bad as 2FORT; classes other than Scout could cap intel before you died of old age. There were plenty of places to build sentries, but even those were wide open, giving you multiple routes of attack. Now, I won't say it's a perfect CTF map (which map do we have a regular and instaspawn for, and which do we no longer have a server for?) But I think it encouraged more varied gameplay and more all-around speed.

Comments, suggestions, ideas?

i like 2fort as it is even with the imperfections.

it would be interesting to see what i was like if you could edit the map and create an updated one with ur ideas
 
2fort sure could use a refresh. Whoever made the version for TF2 did an awful job. He got all the proportions right, but he was a real jerk about everything else. There are like a million edges that you bump into or get stuck on that should go.

That wheel in the RED tire room needs to go. Half the railings need to go. The lip on the battlements (sniper deck) floor needs to go. All the posts that aren't flush with walls need to go. Anything that makes you get stuck on the ceiling needs to go. The ramps out front need to have sloped sides so that you don't get stuck on them.

All of this needs to happen because it is WAY too easy to play demo on 2fort. Your job as a demo is made far too easy because of all the edges that people get stuck on.

I honestly don't have a problem with stalemates on the regular respawn 2fort server. Instant spawn is just never going to have a high capture rate. It's not possible to get out with the intelligence when the defenders are coming right back.

As for some of AutoDMC's points:

1. If you remove the awning from the bridge, you eliminate the fastest possible path for the intelligence. This would surely decrease the intel capture rate. I often use this route as a soldier or demo - even if I die with the intel, my team can come back to get it more easily than if I stay on the ground.

2. I also would love to see the middle awning/cover removed from the battlements. All it does is provide a place for enemies to camp your spawn exit. Enemies who are truly assaulting do not need the extra cover, and no sniper needs cover there either. It gets in the way more than it helps.

I don't think the elimination of the sidewalls is necessary, but I would like for the sheet-metal to be impossible to stand on. It's cheap and the people who use it know it.

3. An entrance to the intel straight from the sewer doesn't seem like a good idea. I do think that there needs to be another way in, but I think the two main paths work fine. What I think is needed is another way to get to the spiral ramps. Perhaps the grate could be replaced by something like a stairway that leads up to the hayrooms?

Currently all team assaults must go through the CY. While flankers can use the grate, you'll never get the intel out of a well defended base without medics - and medics can't fly. I think a second independent route to the spiral would be ideal. And the grate is already one of the more hated features of the map.

4. I would also like the intel room to open up a bit. There are currently only 2 good places to put a sentry in the intel room for defense, and both of those can be killed without an uber.

By eliminating the L shaped wall across from the intel, you'd also eliminate the chokepoint. Scouts couldn't play keep-away for 3 minutes and waste everyone's time. True assaults wouldn't get stuck in the hallways on their way out.

I don't think you can ever fix the capture rate on IR, but the map in general could definitely use some inventive improvements.

Edit:

QB crits you with Wall of Text for 1x10^10 damage.
You are dead.
 
Have you played 2fort_classic_v2? The new 2fort is an instant classic, but it's hard to beat the TFC version... if only we could still double conc jump across to the other sniper deck...
 
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