My in-depth analysis of the new scout unlocks.

I disagree with the Scout being overpowered. While it is utterly annoying when they do that, before they were a throwaway class. They were slowly becoming more and more useless and the easiest class to kill. I do not believe the Sandman is overpowered and I really don't believe the FAN is.

I think we need to give things some time before calling for nerfing. Valve does a lot more planning on these updates than you think.
 
Not all heavies have personal medics. A scout shouldn't be able to take out a heavy/medic combo that has full health unless the heavy/medic combo is retarded. With the new weapons the scout can actually do it easier. Its a lot easier for them to run away after running in and unloading their gun.

If the heavy is alone all you have to do is surprise him and unload your gun, then run away before he can spin up. Come back, sandman him and finish him off.
 
harro said:
Not all heavies have personal medics. A scout shouldn't be able to take out a heavy/medic combo that has full health unless the heavy/medic combo is retarded. With the new weapons the scout can actually do it easier. Its a lot easier for them to run away after running in and unloading their gun.

If the heavy is alone all you have to do is surprise him and unload your gun, then run away before he can spin up. Come back, sandman him and finish him off.
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That's the point. The Scout gets a chance to strategize and use some skill and be able to take down a heavy every once in a while. The updates were designed for that. But please take note that eight or nine times of of ten, the scout is the one who gets massacred.
 
Valve doesn't test enough or they wouldn't have to nerf their own updates (ie pyro).

The stun time is way too long. Anyone thats not buffed or a heavy is pretty much dead if he gets sandmaned.
 
SScagnetti said:
That's the point. The Scout gets a chance to strategize and use some skill and be able to take down a heavy every once in a while. The updates were designed for that. But please take note that eight or nine times of of ten, the scout is the one who gets massacred.
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Scouts were hard to play. In good hands they were pretty effective before the update if you didn't try to play like you were invincible. Now they're just way too easy to play and all you have to do is run around smacking baseballs at people and then killing them with 2 shots. I had a scout 2 shot me as a soldier after he ate my rocket directly to the face.

It's obvious that not all the classes are balanced and they never will be. There are some classes are more useless than others and I don't see a reason they should mess with that. It ruins the gameplay for people who like the way things are.
 
harro said:
It's obvious that not all the classes are balanced and they never will be. There are some classes are more useless than others and I don't see a reason they should mess with that. It ruins the gameplay for people who like the way things are.
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No, that's not what TF2 is about. All classes should be a viable choice. Each class should have the potential to be a dominator if used right.

And as for the pyro update, I don't think the health should have been changed. Valve only did it because of a HUGE community outcry that happened way too soon after the update was released. I have said it before and I will say it again, give updates time. Talk of nerfing should basically never happen within the first week of a release. Just wait and see how the game is played after people are done going nuts over the new stuff and the game evens out a little.

/rant
 
harro said:
Valve doesn't test enough or they wouldn't have to nerf their own updates (ie pyro).

The stun time is way too long. Anyone thats not buffed or a heavy is pretty much dead if he gets sandmaned.
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Again I have to disagree, on a one and one situation if im a solider, medic, or a scout my self, I end either killing the scout or getting away. And in most cases I have back up, and yes its true not all hevies have dedicated medics, or a medic at all near by, and I don't know why they don't, or atleast I dont know why they don't and are out in the open with out any other class backing them up. I've always felt that TF2 is a team game and besides snipers and spies, I dont know why anyone would be anywhere completely alone. But even with out any of the new weapons, which I do not own, since I only have eight achivments and have not/will not go to an achivment server or farm them, can usally take a heavy with 3-4 rounds from the normal scatter gun running circules around the guy.

As for valve testing, im sure they test alot with a small group of people and see no problem with it but when you give thosands of people the same weapons, new ideas and concepts start to pop up so you need to change acordingly, and didn't they only change the 50+ hp from the backburner or was there more I don't remeber?

I could be wrong who knows I don't work there. But I dont feel anything needs a nerf yet, I find baseballs are easy to avoid as long as they don't ambush you with them, and so far I havnt really played scout that much, im usally a medic/heavy/soldier or sniper. I think thats what scouts should do, is ambush, and hit and run tactics, and now they have become a more interesting class with interesting abilties, before this they were usless, only used to get kills and brag basicly, like weak characters created for fighting characters, only for bragging rights. Now Valve has attempted to make them more useful to the team, by being about to counter ubers and distract or pass sentires and so on and so on. I think alot of the hate for the sandman comes to people who don't work on a team, or atleast that's what ive seen on blackmesa, when spawn camping is the thing to do in that map. Your usally only seeing 2 guys useing uber at a spawn, while in maps were the team is working together an uber is used to push everyone, not 2 guys, so if your target gets stunned, quickly grab the next useful class next to you, to push. Or alteast thats how I do it.

But I am no expert or anything, just my 2 cents.
 
They change things afterwards because they accept user input.

and, well,

As for valve testing, im sure they test alot with a small group of people and see no problem with it but when you give thosands of people the same weapons, new ideas and concepts start to pop up so you need to change acordingly, and didn't they only change the 50+ hp from the backburner or was there more I don't remeber?
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Right there.
 
Nerfing the scout are you guys crazy? I think the scout is still underpowered. The Fan is junk, unless they add more ammo before you have to reload,. The sandman is useful. But it doesnt over power the scout any. The scout is suppose to be a defensive class. Which is exactly what the sandman is good for. Basically stun a guy coming down a small hallway or an uber. Havent gotten the BONK drink yet so i dont know how that plays. But from what i have seen it would be a usefull team weapon. Doesnt really help the scout out much personally. So i would say all you guys talking nerf need to look at the big and see the things that have alredy been pointed out in this post. That yeah sometimes a scout can take a heavy out 1v1 but its still really only about 20% chance of it happening. Also that before the update scouts were basically useless except for at the very begining of the match. I mean comon a lvl 1 SG sent up before would take scouts out of the game.In the end i think they actually need to buff the scout up more. Not nerf him down.
 
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After playing as an engie, it is frustrating to see three scouts come around a corner, the first one with bonk! on and the other two kill the sentry because the sentry fires only at the first scout. Perhaps they should make a command for an engineer that tells the sentry to switch targets.

The spy update is great. It allows spies to stay disguised better and it fixes facestabs and makes backstabbing easier. As a casual playing spy, and a pretty big engineer, it is an upgrade all around.

I'm going to agree that we shouldn't give a huge outcry at first. Things will be different in a week or two when scout populations go back down to normal. Right now getting hit by a sandman whenever you round a corner is annoying, but that just won't happen in a week or two.

Saying that, I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that the FAN will be upgraded a tiny bit, the sandman will become similar to the flare gun to aim, and bonk will be left alone. Any other tweaks will be done to other classes to adapt to the new gameplay. Valve seems committed to this new style and will probably bring the other classes up rather than take the scout down.
 
harro said:
Not all heavies have personal medics. A scout shouldn't be able to take out a heavy/medic combo that has full health unless the heavy/medic combo is retarded. With the new weapons the scout can actually do it easier. Its a lot easier for them to run away after running in and unloading their gun.

If the heavy is alone all you have to do is surprise him and unload your gun, then run away before he can spin up. Come back, sandman him and finish him off.
Click to expand...

God forbid the scout can fight a heavy/medic combo effectively. These updates were made to change the Scout's playing style. If there are enemies around the Heavy when you stun him, they'll almost always kill the scout before he can kill the Heavy. And if the Heavy's alone, it's the same as a spy backstabbing him, really.

A good Heavy/Medic combo is almost impossible to take down. This didn't FIX that, it just made killing one a lot easier to achieve. Same with ubers.

The Sandman is a severe impairment for scouts as well, since they lose the second jump. And while I do love the FAN, it's no replacement for a second jump. And you're limited to one shot after a jump, too.

Scouts were designed to be A: Swarm attackers, B: Distractions, and C: to pick off single targets. Rarely can I scout take on a group of enemies by himself and win. Unless you're zaza. >_>

So basically, I'm fine with the updates. The baseball is really just encouraging teamwork, when you think about it. Valve playtests these things a lot more than you guys think. And if it turns out that this stun is ridiculously overpowered, then I'm sure they'll patch it.
 
Yeah the stun time is a little too long in itself. If you are right up to the guy you are stunning, it seems like he gets stunned for 3 seconds or so. That's way to long for a stun.

I do agree the sandman is an effective team weapon which is good, but i think it should be tweaked a little on the stun time. With the effect with ubers, i don't think that it should stop the person from being ubered. I think it should just do the stun without making the person vulnerable to attack, kinda like the pyro's compression blast which makes the person still not vulnerable for attack but it makes the pair not attack the pyro.

I just can't wait for the scout population to go down in a week or two.
 
I meant it encourages teamwork for both the side stunning AND the side being stunned. If you're working as a team, they can kill the scout before he does any damage to whoever's stunned.
 
Properly Basic said:
Valve released an update tonight that took away the -50% damage to non-stunned. Sad day :-(
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Why's that a bad thing? There were too many drawbacks with the sandman when you couldn't double jump AND only do 50% damage to non-stunned enamies; bearing in mind you only have 1 ball.
 
This is for those of you guys that think scouts need to be nerfed. This video is pre patch work 25 kills in one life. I bet most of you will say the scout should have been nerfed a long time ago after you watch this video..

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjmhyCQEiP4&feature=player_embedded[/ame]
 
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I like this thread, because Pheonix said something else besiades "This is awesome" or "This one sucks". So I am content.
 
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