Clarification of Rules Request

[oKnight]

EdgeGamers.org,

I would like a clarification of the rules. I was in a DoD:S server tonight and someone was impressed/mentioned that all class had pistols. I said, "hacks". I was immediately admonished (with a wet noodle no less!) by admins for using the word, "hacks".

So the question is... is the keyword, "hacks" illegal in your servers? And why? I can certainly understand if people are accusing others of hacking. However I was simply stating something that is ABSOLUTELY true, and can be backed up with solid rock hard evidence that modifications to the server are in fact, hacks.

I want this admin that did admonish me to be fully aware that he did what he was supposed to, and I hold absolutely no grudge against him, he's a really decent player, and seems to be a decent person. I just feel he has received incorrect information.

The term has since acquired an additional and now more common meaning, since approximately the 1980s; this more modern definition was initially associated with crackers. This growing use of the term "hack" is to refer to a program that (sometimes illegally) modifies another program, often a computer game, giving the user access to features otherwise inaccessible to them. As an example of this use, for Palm OS users (until the 4th iteration of this operating system), a "hack" refers to an extension of the operating system which provides additional functionality.

Emphasis added.
Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hack_(technology)


DoD:S 24/7 Kalt Server.

Much appreciation for your time and efforts,
Knight.

 

[Blasphemy]

i dont think its illegal to say tbh (my opinion) but accusing someone else of it is not allowed in our servers from what i know. like saying haha you hacker . i say that to a couple ppl i know in server but they know i am kidding as i said it in a sarcastic way. but say dude, quit your hacking, now that isnt allowed,

but that is how i read and understand the rules, ask 1 of the admins they would be able to help you in that concern.

 

[jeod66]

It's not a "banned word"; it's just not a good one to generally use in a server. As soon as that comes up, players tend to start accusing people of hacking; once the gates open, the flood comes rushing in. Most of the time (at least on Avalanche), it doesn't happen and isn't a problem.

If everyone knows that it's meant in jest, it tends to slide by without much more than a general "haha" or "lol".

"Technically" you're right by the definition you provided, and the modifications could be considered "hacks". However, we don't view them that way; the changes are house rules, meant to even out the game and give both teams a fair chance. For example, removing the piano in Avalanche to prevent blocking the Allied spawn and removing the mattress frame one room over to stop the barrier jumping are house changes. You can go somewhere else and use them, but in eGO servers they aren't there. Pistols are the same way; it gives riflemen and assaulting classes the chance to have a last-ditch short-range weapon when needed.

However, only the pistols could actually be considered as "access to features otherwise inaccessible to them", because that's the only thing (that I've noticed) that adds something to the game; the other changes remove problem factors. As I explained above, the pistol business isn't a hack; the term implies a singular advantage, and here all players have that opportunity. Nobody has an advantage by whipping a pistol out; we all can.

Hope this clears it up for you a little; I can't say that you're right, but you aren't entirely wrong either, if going by the book (in this case, Wikipedia definition).

 

[VizierKane]

not illegal AT ALL!!!i hear full eGO members say it!

eGO member 1. "wow, im doing bad right now! time to turn on my hacks lol "

eGO member 2. "hahaha"

eG member 6.. "lol"

eGO member 5.. "Go ahead i will still own you" lol..

VizierKane.. "hahaha" "No you wont!!" lol

eGO member 2 " heheh"


I've heard things like this in the sniper server! lol

 

[Jimmeh]

You can say hacks, but if you are directly accusing players of hacking it is not allowed. It just causes problems in the servers which we like to avoid. the easiest way to stop this, is to not allow hacking accusations.

Allowed
"Lol dude turn off the hacks, you keep killing me"
"HAX!! "

Anything along those lines. Adding lol, or shows everyone that you are joking and will give the server a good laught

Not Allowed
"OMG ***** Is such a hacker! Ban him admin!!"
" ***** Is hacking!"

Anything that sounds like a serious and direct accusation is not permitted.

 

[I SURVIVED LONDON BLITZ]

Hi guys, Yes I am that admin and until an adviser or above tells me I will continue to stop players from talking about "hacks". The last thing I remember on this subject was "no accusing EVEN in jest" , and as stated by 'jeod66' once you open the gate it all floods out. I had already cautioned two players for accusing and when Knight started to discuss hacking I asked him to stop, which he did. I felt I could not take a chance the other two would start accusing again leading to me kicking one or both. I don't think any admin likes kicking players so to avoid that I made that request and there was no confrontation.
I SURVIVED LONDON BLITZ

 

[Annihilator]

The term hack is a questionable word in our servers. It is left up to the admins interpretation of how the word was being used. Some can tell its in jest while other you can tell who is really upset.

Therefore there is no definitive answer, it is up to the admins in game and how they judge your attitude in game.

I would suggest you choose wisely when using this word.

 

[Frank Booth]

The admins have the final say in the server, no matter what the rules say. But you used the proper channels and questioned this the right way.

For me if they are joking i will let it slide once. Or like you used it once in a sentence i ignore it that one time, unless you kept saying it or talk about hacks. If someone keeps saying hack, even jokingly, i will warn. Not everyone knows you are joking and then others may start calling others hacks as well.

Also keep in mind admins back each other up, even though we give different answers here, if Michael warns you in game that is the rule and i have his back.

 

[waffleman]

I was in the server when this incident happened. I personally don't like anyone using the word while I am in the server. As far "just kidding around" or adding a after the word to make it "allowed" I do not agree with. I thing the above post got it right saying that you open the flood gates and everything gets out of hand. I look at the word as if it were a curse word that is not allowed. By not allowing the word you get rid of situations like this all together.

 

[oKnight]

once the gates open, the flood comes rushing in.

See example below.

However, we don't view them that way; the changes are house rules, meant to even out the game and give both teams a fair chance.

<snip>

As I explained above, the pistol business isn't a hack; the term implies a singular advantage, and here all players have that opportunity.

You are assuming (incorrectly) that the term hacking refers to a nefarious deed. As though it was something wrong or bad, and that it gives unfair advantages. Furthermore, you are assuming that the term hack refers to something a individual does for his/her own benefit only. This is simply not true, nowhere is it inferred or presented that a hack must be beneficial to one person only.

Let me ask you this. In Wikipedia it states, "giving the user access to features otherwise inaccessible to them". My question is... Could this user be the person who modified the EdgeGamers server? If so... could that person have used a hack (remember hack defined: "modifies another program, often a computer game, giving the user access to features otherwise inaccessible to them") to do so?

Also keep in mind admins back each other up, even though we give different answers here, if Michael warns you in game that is the rule and i have his back.

I understand, and agree with unity on the servers. However in the forums your opinion should be just that. As London Blitz (Michael) said, I dropped it right away, and contacted the forums. As I initially posted, I have nothing wrong with how the admin conducted himself, nor do I feel he was wrong with what he did... I feel that his information is wrong. He has been told not to allow the word "hack", period. And that's what I'm having an issue with.

In my opinion, it's stupid to ban any word based on the fact that it causes problems, see below. Rather the best way is to ban the problem. IE, "don't accuse people of hacking."

I was in the server when this incident happened. I personally don't like anyone using the word while I am in the server. As far "just kidding around" or adding a after the word to make it "allowed" I do not agree with. I thing the above post got it right saying that you open the flood gates and everything gets out of hand. I look at the word as if it were a curse word that is not allowed. By not allowing the word you get rid of situations like this all together.

By your logic all words are "curse" words. For example: A media corporation runs a story on a local rape case. It causes a lot of publicity because of whatever reason. As a result, everyone is talking about it. Ooops... I just cursed, because "rape" is a bad thing...and it just lets all the flood gates open for everyone to rape. Right? Or does this mean the entire town is going to have to deal with people accusing everyone of rape?... Ah! But wait, so you might say we are talking about a different situation here?... Oh, I get it! The town is more mature. Maybe that is the issue. Those whom accuse of hacking are simply immature, and therefor they need guidance on not accusing people...but does that mean that the entire town can't talk about the rape?.... Or how their cousin was raped.... or ... (I think I've made my point...) it shouldn't.


On a side note, ya know I totally understand 1) what the admin goes through on a daily basis, and 2) how the player being accused of hacks feels... I'm constantly being accused of hacking, and I actually enjoy the admins telling them to stop.... but again I wasn't using the word in any way that I presumed as "wrong", or "cursing". All I am trying to do is make this word not "Banned", but rather the idea/idealogy of accusing people of hacking to be banned..... The rules don't say, "don't use the word hacks".

Knight.

 

[Frank Booth]

We value pubs like you a lot. You guys fill our servers up. I think you are putting too much thought into this. You are pushing logic a lot. This has not so much to do with logic but with intuition and experience and what works. Logic and human behavior is not a good mix, and if you read on Zen you see they push intuition above logic with some amazing results.

Rule 4 in the MOTD. i think it is 4, says admins have the final say. Just because there is no rule does not mean admins cannot enforce something they think needs to be done so. We have rules and protocol to follow, but eGOs and eGs are basically the acting owners of the server when they are there and are trusted to do a good job.

I think this topic has been covered and your questions answered quite well.

Lock please.

 

[jeod66]

I'm just going to say right off the bat that I don't think you will win this argument, and I have a feeling that your second-to-last paragraph is a thinly veiled Chewbacca defense, so I won't address it. I just had that kind of feeling when I read it.

The answer is simple: the term "hacking" has a negative connotation in all circumstances of its usage. That's why we officially don't allow it. Everything is circumstantial, and dependent on the admin in question: Michael may not permit it at any given time, whereas I tend to let it slide if it's obviously used in jest (particularly among eGO members).

As such, that's why we don't generally like to use the term: Once you say it, it's open to everyone's individual interpretation, and one player that's been dominated one-too-many times will pull the trigger and start accusing others. It happens more than you think, especially in servers without admins present.

The ideology of "don't accuse" is sound and active; we're trying to prevent potential problems and avoid accusations. What Kendle does to the servers, by your Wikipedia (lol, by the way) definition "could" be considered hacking by a rules extremist. But the changes are house rules; if you don't like them, you don't have to play with us, and we maintain that policy. They are there because Leadership decided that they were in the general public's best interests, by their rationale.

You've done the right thing by bringing this to the forums rather than ingame chat, but I'm reasonably certain that you won't win this; we act as we do to keep the game running and letting players have a good time.

EDIT: Sorry Frank, you posted while I was typing my own response. My apologies.

 

[Greenlight Terror]

This discussion is over.

Simply put, Saying someone hacks is not a ban able offense. It should be used with caution when saying some one hacks, If its in a joking manner it should be alright as long as its evident that the person saying it is joking around.

But if accusing someone of hacking because their skill surpasses yours, then the admin in game can decide what he feels is appropriate, We stand behind our admins, that's the reason we promoted them because we trust there decisions.


-Greenlight Terror-