Auto-balance

[Thereven]

Since my post on this subject was lost to the aether...

I was reading up on auto-balancing the other day and there seems to be a couple of things I was wondering about.

HLstatsX has an auto-balance function that takes skill into account as well as plain team number imbalance. Have we tried this out?

Also ran across a plugin that keeps people from jumping to spec mode, then switching to the other team when the auto-balance kicks in. They can only rejoin whatever team they were last on. Any thoughts on this?

 

[trykael]

I'll comment on the second part - that would keep our admins from being able to do their job if necessary. There are times when we NEED an admin on a specific team, and the only way to get over there is to force an autobalance. It's something we only do as a last resort, but it's something I don't think we should take away from the servers.

I'll let someone like Agent86 speak to the first part.

 

[Darth]

GREAT!! I had a really, really good responce for this but the site being down must have removed it

Ok so:

Also ran across a plugin that keeps people from jumping to spec mode, then switching to the other team when the auto-balance kicks in. They can only rejoin whatever team they were last on. Any thoughts on this?

Ok, so lets say, we have a mic spammer or a punk on the red team, and there is only one admin on the server and he is on the blue team? What if the admin desperately needs to get to the other team to sort something out but the server wont let him? What does the admin do then?

HLstatsX has an auto-balance function that takes skill into account as well as plain team number imbalance. Have we tried this out?

Ok so lets the the most skilled person is on the red team, and he gets autobalanced to the blue team, and then the red team gets steamrolled over and over again? What do you do then? What do you do if everyone on the red team leaves? And the server just empties within a few minutes? Answer these and i might agree with you

 

[An_Idiot_Blooming]

Is it possible to exempt admins from this feature? If so, problem solves.

@Darth: It doesn't just move the MOST skilled player. Simply means it's not going to always take the last person who joined the team, that's all.

Unless the teams are super unbalanced, it will take an average player or one of the better ones - not always #1 on the winning team.

 

[SMiles]

Ok so lets the the most skilled person is on the red team, and he gets autobalanced to the blue team, and then the red team gets steamrolled over and over again? What do you do then? What do you do if everyone on the red team leaves? And the server just empties within a few minutes? Answer these and i might agree with you

I am not thereven but I will answer anyways. I personally dont think that one person is good enough to cause a team to get steam rolled over and over again. Steam rolling generally happens when one team has 2-4 players that work really well together, and the other team consists of players that dont communicate. In a team based game like tf2, communication is key. However removing one of the best players from the opposing team may be just the advantage the losing team needs to create an even match...

I really think that if this skill based autobalance exists, then I would definitely say that it is worth a shot.

 

[Thereven]

I am not thereven but I will answer anyways. I personally dont think that one person is good enough to cause a team to get steam rolled over and over again. Steam rolling generally happens when one team has 2-4 players that work really well together, and the other team consists of players that dont communicate. In a team based game like tf2, communication is key. However removing one of the best players from the opposing team may be just the advantage the losing team needs to create an even match...

I really think that if this skill based autobalance exists, then I would definitely say that it is worth a shot.

True, you are no Thereven, but I approve of this message. I hereby declare you an honorary Thereven with all rights, privileges, and responsibilities pertaining thereto.

 

[zombie allah]

i like playing as a lone wolf spraying stuff with my scout scatter gun. what is this teamwork of which you speak?

 

[shade]

My biggest worry with the skill based auto-balance is that it would mean that the higher skilled players get forced into switching a lot, which can be enourmously frustrating for them. I am obviously against team stacking, but I also don't think its necessary to re-balance the teams every time two people from the same team quit, and auto-balance gets initiated.

I think having skilled players on our servers is a huge draw in the TF2 world, and implementing such a plugin might jeopardize that. I'd rather get steam rolled sometimes because we have the best players are on our server, than have consistently equal teams of newbs.

 

[ScrappyDoo]

I personally dont think that one person is good enough to cause a team to get steam rolled over and over again.

You clearly have not played with or against people like Cl!ff or /dev/null.

 

[Quaffer]

i like playing as a lone wolf spraying stuff with my scout scatter gun. what is this teamwork of which you speak?

team⋅work   Pronunciation [teem-wurk]
?noun 1. cooperative or coordinated effort on the part of a group of persons acting together as a team or in the interests of a common cause.
2. work done with a team.

It means you listen and talk to your teammates. Watch each others back. All the players working for a common goal. Members of teams value each others participation. They find it enjoyable.

You might give it a shot.

Don't they call it Team Fortress 2?

Lone Wolves don't fare well when they encounter a pride of lions. Something to think about.

 

[midget31394]

Another problem coming into the "skill" thing. Yeah they have more hlx points than someone new. Those people will have played our servers more though. So say you had someone who isnt "skilled" but has alot of hlx points from constantly playing. Then you get a team of people who play competetively. Who gets moved? The person with the higher rank, more points etc or the guys who are just new to the server?

 

[zombie allah]

team⋅work   Pronunciation [teem-wurk]
?noun 1. cooperative or coordinated effort on the part of a group of persons acting together as a team or in the interests of a common cause.
2. work done with a team.

It means you listen and talk to your teammates. Watch each others back. All the players working for a common goal. Members of teams value each others participation. They find it enjoyable.

You might give it a shot.

Don't they call it Team Fortress 2?

Lone Wolves don't fare well when they encounter a pride of lions. Something to think about.

can't really teamwork too well. i disabled my teamspeak in game so i didn't have to listen to all the inane dribble. lonewolves have their place in tf2. i'll stick to my playstyle. besides, it doesn't really matter if your "team" wins or loses. as long as you are having fun is what counts.

 

[SMiles]

You clearly have not played with or against people like Cl!ff or /dev/null.

What I am trying to say is that even though some players can be an extremely influential part of a winning team, I suspect that a mediocre team with GREAT teamwork and no standout-superstar-immortal players will, be at an advantage against a second team of mediocre players, who do not communicate, yet have 1-2 amazing players on their team...

I admit though that I have never played with Cl!ff or /dev/null, so you may be right. But, until proven otherwise I am convinced that teamwork is more beneficial than skill.

 

[Haggus McGee]

Good swap for team scramble i guess

 

[Thereven]

The person with the higher rank, more points etc or the guys who are just new to the server?

I don't know for certain how it decides who gets moved. There isn't much documentation on the HLstatsX site.

Another problem coming into the "skill" thing. Yeah they have more hlx points than someone new. Those people will have played our servers more though.

You don't just get free points for being there and playing, if you kill someone, you get points, if they kill you, you lose points. New players are given 1000 points to start with. You get more points for killing higher ranked players than you are for lower ranked players. Conversely, you lose more points by being killed by a lower rank player. So no, it isn't the best way to measure skill, but it is a way to measure skill.

Anything that will even the teams out by more than just raw numbers has to be better.


We've had an unwritten rule to switch teams if one is dominating the other to try to even things out. Most times eGO are not the majority of players on the server though. What we can do, we do. What we can't do is force people to abide by our unwritten rules.

So no matter what we do on our own, there will be imbalances in the teams. When a team is being steamrolled, half the people on the server aren't having fun.

I'm just looking for a way to make things more fun for everyone.

 

[Cl!FF]

You clearly have not played with or against people like Cl!ff or /dev/null.

Why thank you, you are too kind

 

[midget31394]

yeah I know how that works, but a mediocre spy gets two points per sap, I think. so if you just go about spamming your sapper on teleporters and backstabbing heavys at a disadvantage your are likely to go up. I am a mediocre player I would say, I don't have one outstanding class I'm alright with everything, I prefer demoman and soldier though. I know, that if anyone goes demoman and spams enough stickys they will gain hlx points. It's not that hard to gain rank in hlxstats, even though Im not in the hundreds I think I am at 1,000 and something, and playing on 2fort IR almost all the time, thats pretty good. (Many people lose 500 or more points in IR but I can keep an even 0, without a drop or rise) If a bad heavy just has a medic, they can become good (see vent camping in Black Mesa etc) so it isn't that hard to gain points.

 

[Cl!FF]

so it isn't that hard to gain points

But you pretty much have it all wrong, if you die you lose 2 points probably, if high ranked players die, they lose 25 points. If you kill someone you gain maybe 5-10 points for them, the high ranked players almost always get 2 points. It isn't as easy as you think.

 

[midget31394]

But you pretty much have it all wrong, if you die you lose 2 points probably, if high ranked players die, they lose 25 points. If you kill someone you gain maybe 5-10 points for them, the high ranked players almost always get 2 points. It isn't as easy as you think.

I get around 2 points per kill yes, but if you know how/when to retreat without virtual suicide you can keep an average rank without losing or gaining points like I have. Dustbowl may be different than the servers I play in (I come to dustbowl every so often) but the key to gaining/keeping points is teamwork. If you have a team of people who stick together it is more likely there will be more kills etc. now I know I am not the best player but I hone in on my few strengths and I keep around the same level rank. All I was doing was speaking from experience...


Also, camping is a simple way to gain points. Whether it be sticky/ heavy/ pyro in tight spaces/tunnels.

My main point is that skill shouldn't be taken into autobalance account.

 

[A Blind Man Schmidt]

Just curious.....doesnt the Auto-Balance force the last player who died on whatever team to switch?....like it pops up Auto-Balance in 5 Seconds....and if I die and my team is the team that has more people....wouldnt it throw me to the other team????