If you've ever played on Hightower, you know that too many Snipers completely dash the enjoyment of most of the people playing. Avoiding Sniper sightlines on that map is almost impossible, and the more of them there are, the less you're capable of moving anywhere without instantly dying. At the very least I think we should consider some form of limit.
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THIS^
Spawn-camping with some taunting should get the message across. As does going spy and backstabbing nothing but snipers. Battle engy with the mini-sentry roaming known sniper spots can be fun too.
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It's Hightower. The only 2 species that live there are Trolldiers and Snipers. If we limit 1 class people will be upset and call it "unfair." I know full well you main Heavy and that Sniper is a good counter, but limiting the class to counter that seems a bit biased.
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TF2 =/= DoD:S
Snipers are counterable, just like everything else in the game is counterable. If there is a really good sniper on the other team, then yeah you're going to run into some problems. But that's how it's meant to be. Play around the tower, on the ground, or hug the walls. Bully them as spy until they switch. There are many options to doing this.
I can't justify stomping on the game's mechanics when the game already has answers for this "problem."
Everyone who has posted in this thread so far has thousands of hours, minimum. We know the game, and we all know that large numbers of snipers can be dealt with in much the same way any other major class disparity can be dealt with.
This isn't minisentries, this is an entire class we're talking about here. Limiting it seems pointless and against the spirit of TF2.
Snipers are counterable, just like everything else in the game is counterable. If there is a really good sniper on the other team, then yeah you're going to run into some problems. But that's how it's meant to be. Play around the tower, on the ground, or hug the walls. Bully them as spy until they switch. There are many options to doing this.
I can't justify stomping on the game's mechanics when the game already has answers for this "problem."
Everyone who has posted in this thread so far has thousands of hours, minimum. We know the game, and we all know that large numbers of snipers can be dealt with in much the same way any other major class disparity can be dealt with.
This isn't minisentries, this is an entire class we're talking about here. Limiting it seems pointless and against the spirit of TF2.
Contrary to what you may believe, Sniper does not have consistent counterplay. Everything you suggest is contingent purely on the Sniper's own fallibility, which is poor game design. Strafing erratically, duck jumping, twisting around, rocket jumping, and airstrafing are not Sniper counters; those techniques are tantamount to standing your ground and making noise to ward off a bear attack. Ultimately, your survival is predicated on the bear's audacity, in much the same way your survival against Sniper is predicated purely on his ability to place his crosshair over your model. Sniper as a class removes player agency due the fact that your input in the "encounter" is meaningless--only his input matters. Spy is not a Sniper counter, as any Sniper that's aware of his surroundings will position himself in area that makes predicting their approach vectors rather simplistic. One shot is all that's required to remove Spy as a threat once detected, and the Razorback obviates the danger posed by backstabs.
This has been debated endlessly in the upper echelons of the competitive TF2 community and elsewhere, and even b4nny himself agrees that Sniper requires major alterations. Suffice it to say, in the case of Hightower, the only limiting factor placed on Sniper's efficacy is cover, and Hightower does not provide an ample amount of this. Sniper has free reign to shut down 90% of the map, and can acquire sightlines to any conceivable area. When you have five or more Snipers on the server, it becomes so locked down that absolutely no one has any enjoyment whatsoever, and more often than not, the server begins to empty out as a result. This was the same reason we limited sentries years ago.
This has been debated endlessly in the upper echelons of the competitive TF2 community and elsewhere, and even b4nny himself agrees that Sniper requires major alterations. Suffice it to say, in the case of Hightower, the only limiting factor placed on Sniper's efficacy is cover, and Hightower does not provide an ample amount of this. Sniper has free reign to shut down 90% of the map, and can acquire sightlines to any conceivable area. When you have five or more Snipers on the server, it becomes so locked down that absolutely no one has any enjoyment whatsoever, and more often than not, the server begins to empty out as a result. This was the same reason we limited sentries years ago.
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If people are good at Sniper, and we decide to limit the class, how is that fair to them? The only thing that is gained from your suggestion Exor is that certain people stay alive longer because someone who spent thousands of hours in game or on a character would not be playing them. Sentries are 1 thing, but an entire class is completely different. I know your bias against Sniper, because I've heard it first hand. We're not going to be limiting a class entirely so that you and or others have more "free reign" on Hightower. I will leave this up for my other TF2 leadership,
Emmy
DrkChocolate
and Dianite to weigh in.
Emmy
DrkChocolate
and Dianite to weigh in.Merely because a class or mechanic takes skill to master does not mean said class or mechanic is balanced, that's a universal truth of game design. When I suggested we ban the Sandman a few years ago, clearly Valve finally felt the same way when they removed its ability to stun. It wasn't a fair weapon, and honestly, I think Valve will make changes to Sniper in the future when they get around to updating this game again. In the meantime, as someone that has played on this server for almost seven years, I wouldn't make this suggestion purely for my own personal gain, as I would have made the suggestion years ago if that were the case. I simply find that too many Snipers is deleterious to the server's health when players drop from the server in droves as a result, and this happens frequently to be honest.
If you're unwilling to limit Sniper, then at least consider increasing the respawn times a little. Killing a Sniper is ultimately meaningless when he respawns almost instantly and goes back to shutting down more than half the map, and that goes for any class or player really.
If you're unwilling to limit Sniper, then at least consider increasing the respawn times a little. Killing a Sniper is ultimately meaningless when he respawns almost instantly and goes back to shutting down more than half the map, and that goes for any class or player really.
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I really don’t see the point of limiting snipers. Any class that gets out of balance in a server will get back in balance by others either concentrating on them or avoiding them so they get bored and either switch class or leave. The same thing happens when there is one person who is especially good at a class on a server. When people get tired of being killed by the same person over and over, they start concentrating on that one person or avoiding them. So that one person either changes class or leaves and the server is balanced again.
A server is always ebbing and flowing. That’s what keeps a server fun. The constantly changing character of classes and players and which classes are easier or harder depending on who is playing.
A server is always ebbing and flowing. That’s what keeps a server fun. The constantly changing character of classes and players and which classes are easier or harder depending on who is playing.
Most people that play on the server don't post on this forum.
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Insanity Idol: Ban snipers on Hightower. And I don't mean limit the class to zero. Have a plug-in that, whenever someone picks sniper as a class, it bans them.
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How about a sniper that bans anyone it kills
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That doesn't really change the fact that the forums are where server suggestions are documented and implemented. If the issue is as bad as you say, I'm sure they wouldn't be averse to taking 5 minutes to make a forum account and click on a poll.
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F's in this thread for Exor
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