the new black mesa....

[Salty-Inactive]

Hello, for all of you who do not know who i am, i am Saltychipmunk, Maddhatter190, The MagicallyMagesticMoose,THUNDERHORSE!, and a bunch of other names. I am currently the rank 1 hl stats player on your servers and good fan of your black mesa. That is until this current build of it was released. but ill get to that in a few moments.
First i would like to thank Dragon hill for making black mesa. over the last several months i have been an active player of that map and have found it to be one of the most high quality maps in tf2. It had the right mix of open areas, vents and choke points to ensure that games were both fun, exciting and long lasting. It had a very nice bonus in that one didn't actually have to visit every part of the map or even follow the caps to be an important contribution. The heavys and engineers could have fun in the enclosed spaces of ,B,L,C and K while the more mobile classes had A. The vents weer complex, but not to the point of confusion and the overall flow of the map felt refined and smooth.
this is not to say it was perfect. Afterall, no map can be.
It had its fair share of down sides like the glitchy elevators and air vents that lead to C and L or the bugged spawn doors as well as the annoying vent entrances , which were elevated about 3 inches off the ground for no good reason.
Most of these short comings were fixed in the new version, but at the cost of so much. Gone are the well designed vent spaces that made playing heavy and demoman a joy; replaced by a network of intertwining crawlspaces so needless and pointless that it makes me cry. These vents go literally everywhere. Literally there's a part of the map where one vent exit is 9 feet from another one. WTH. further more cudos to dragon hill for making the already difficult to capture last point even harder to cap by generously offering a platform on which engineers can spam sentries above the bloody point , well out of the range of heavys engys scouts and even soldiers. ( yes i know the 4th spawn leads to this platform , but i find it funny when you use it and appear in front of 3 sentry guns . Brilliant.) And then there's the spawns them selves, i can understand 2 spawns but why 4 . did the carebears complain THAT much that you were forced to add a bunch of needless hallways just to appease the players that only play on the map maybe 15 min a week? Yes, i know spawn camping was a problem but this is just ludicrous. The map as it is now is probably twice the size of the previous version, Thats twice the unused spaces and twice the confusion.
As it stands you made all the things i hate about black mesa worse and marginalized all the good things.

i know im going to get serious flak from the community but who cares this map is awful, just awful.
your thoughts , hate, love etc...

 

[Captain Kraken]

Since you seem so distateful of this map, I suggest you download SourceSDK, wich can be found in the Tools section of your steam download page. Then open it, then make your own map with Hammer.

After the long time it takes for you to realise how to make a wall without going into a coma, try to make a well balanced map. Succeed where so many fail. It takes a long time to learn how to make a map. Even longer to make it balanced. Some who make unbalanced maps leave it to rot. Dragon upgraded it twice so that all classes can have an equal share, wich they do now.

You shouldn't insult until you have proven yourself capable of creating a well balanced design, something wich is extremely difficult to accomplish, and something I just don't see happening from you.

Edit after thought: You are the #1 on Hlstats yes? How do you feel when someone calls you an awful player? Firstly you would think it isnt true. You would also be mad at them for making an accusation like that. For you to insult someone who makes maps like Dragonhill, who spends so much time over this project, not job, project, is distateful and downright rude.

 

[b0bfath3r]

I agree with Kraken. You can't just come in here an bash it. Not cool.
You could've at least posted in one of the many existing threads on this topics on how it can improve.

 

[Dragonhill]

Whoaa guys,,,

backup a little

first things first... this is another test version. I really should not unload ALL of these changes at once but unfortunately i tried to cram in as much as i could due to my work structure.

As for the vents,,yes,,i was not 100% sure about it..but i do want to see how it plays..along with the new spawn too. as for the last caps b/k i DID put an upper room for attacker to use to bombard the defenders below..i'm not hearing any one saying they are using them..strange..did i screw them up?

as for building in b/k. That can be changed..what will not be changed is the layout (3 tiers) and the ability for attacking teams to get in through the vent system. i'm surprised the attackers are not setting up teleporters up there and bypassing the spawn portal room.

guess what im saying is that this map has MANY more options. maybe thats too much. I'll have to watch tonite as folks play it

~D

 

[Ronin56109]

So...what I'm getting here is that you're upset because now you can't camp with a medic in a vent right outside of spawn on a map that was (originally) conceived with some flaws...and jump several thousand points in hlstats per day? Is that what I'm getting from you? Ya...I think it is.

Personally, I wasn't a huge fan of the earlier Black Mesa (almost entirely because of that aforementioned tactic) but now that I know of the changes, it sounds like a lot more fun, and a lot more balanced. But then, you and I seem to possess different definitions of "fun"...mine doesn't involve hlstat points for starters...

In any case, and joking aside, if you desire balance, come to Warpath sometime...its very cool in its symmetry, and ack has done a great job in sprucing it up.

 

[Chocozumo]

well said!!!! huzzah!!!! I mean for cap'n.... but....really, I have been with eGO for (almost a year I think) a very long time, and when I found Blackmesa, it became an instant favorite to me. It took a long time to get the spy spawncamp killing just right, but soon later dominations would rack up as hopless heavies shot in the most random of places fresh out of the spawn.

wait....I kind of went off topic...but other than that, he made a map that everyone/(or at least) a lot of people loved. Dragon spent a lot of time trying to make a map to suit every classes needs, even if it means to sacrifice the advantages of others.... MEOW TIME!!!

MEOW MEOW MEOW MEOW MEOW MEOW kitty...

 

[Chocozumo]

OMG!! in the time it took me to write my post, 3 other people posted =p

 

[TheZaw]

Insta spawn for attackers when b/k is cappable. The teles should not make you sideways, the engies should have ONE or two places to build on b/k that can shoot from the teles. No more please!

I still love you DH.

 

[CheeseGamer]

First off, I have to say, I'm not the greatest at TF2, nor do I claim to be. I play it to have fun. That's it.

However, two things crossed my mind when I saw this thread:

First, I fundamentally agree with what Salty says-- I understand that this is just a test version, but fun-wise, this version is a large step down-- it just isn't as fun as the earlier Black Mesa was. Even spawn camping (of which I was almost always the victim of) posed an interesting and really quite fun challenge.

I agree with Kraken. You can't just come in here an bash it. Not cool.
You could've at least posted in one of the many existing threads on this topics on how it can improve.

Secondly, I don't quite get why everyone's freaking out about this. In my opinion, Salty's simply stating his views--in a quite civil manner, I may add. Just cool it some, okay? B0bfath3r in particular: I understand you love Black Mesa in general (so do I), but this kind of reaction? Not cool. He's not coming here in and just bashing it, he's a member of our community too--not in the sence of actual =(eGO)=™ rankings, but he goes to our servers and plays our game--something we need as a part of a community if we don't wish to become elitest jerks. Also, voicing his opinion in a thread already dedicated to the topic would've been nice, but actually jabbing him in the ribs for it?

Feel free to disagree.
-Cheese

 

[b0bfath3r]

First off, I have to say, I'm not the greatest at TF2, nor do I claim to be. I play it to have fun. That's it.

However, two things crossed my mind when I saw this thread:

First, I fundamentally agree with what Salty says-- I understand that this is just a test version, but fun-wise, this version is a large step down-- it just isn't as fun as the earlier Black Mesa was. Even spawn camping (of which I was almost always the victim of) posed an interesting and really quite fun challenge.



Secondly, I don't quite get why everyone's freaking out about this. In my opinion, Salty's simply stating his views--in a quite civil manner, I may add. Just cool it some, okay? B0bfath3r in particular: I understand you love Black Mesa in general (so do I), but this kind of reaction? Not cool. He's not coming here in and just bashing it, he's a member of our community too--not in the sence of actual =(eGO)=? rankings, but he goes to our servers and plays our game--something we need as a part of a community if we don't wish to become elitest jerks. Also, voicing his opinion in a thread already dedicated to the topic would've been nice, but actually jabbing him in the ribs for it?

Feel free to disagree.
-Cheese

i understand where you are going with this.... I probably did say this meanly. It just made me mad when he said the map is bad. I'm not having a great day, and i guess this was just at the end of my fuse.

I apologize to salty. Please don't take my explosion as an excuse to not play on our servers.

 

[Deja]

I'm not reading everyone's posts here... But, sadly, I do agree with salty on a bunch of things... It's to the point where I'm boycotting mesa... Death to my favorite map IMHO. Dragon, we can talk later about it.......

 

[HL2master]

I have a suggestion to the people who think the map was not made well. Pm dragon, tell him what you think is wrong with the map, instead of posting in the forums, starting an arguement, and getting worked up. I will not venture any opinions because i have not played the new version, but salty, if you knew who made the map, please pm the map maker next time, instead of making a thread about it.

 

[Masterpiece]

I'm not reading everyone's posts here... But, sadly, I do agree with salty on a bunch of things... It's to the point where I'm boycotting mesa... Death to my favorite map IMHO. Dragon, we can talk later about it.......

Did you read what dragonhill posted? anyway, i'll miss you deja

 

[Doomfearkeeper]

Agreed..talk to the person who made the map..Probly the best thing anyone can do..Threads like these end up getting to heated. And benefits no one.

 

[Dragonhill]

masterpiece, i lub your sig..but now theres no more waiting for the elevator

sniff..

~D

 

[Masterpiece]

oh god now I need a new sig *shakes fist while crying*

we need old A back!

ps. i still love you DH

 

[Dragonhill]

oh god now I need a new sig *shakes fist while crying*

waiting for the Portal?

~D

 

[Masterpiece]

waiting for the Portal?

~D

Maybe " waiting for the inevitable death after using the portal "

kidding

 

[Goretex]

I'm not reading everyone's posts here... But, sadly, I do agree with salty on a bunch of things... It's to the point where I'm boycotting mesa... Death to my favorite map IMHO. Dragon, we can talk later about it.......

Yes, it is the same for me.

I think way too much stuff was added to this map. I really don't see a point in having the vents turn into a massive labyrinth of confusion. It was confusing enough for newcomers in the old blackmesa_v2t3. Now it's gotten ridiculous with vents looping, going to both spawns, leading to two sides of cap B and L, multi tiered vents, and an area that leads above B/K.

The area above B/K should not be there at all. It just creates a wall of camping engineers and nobody can take out the sentry guns because it's impossible to find the way up there in the first place. The spot above B/K has turned the map into a huge turtling marathon with 4-5 engineers per team.

Finally the door that requires you to press that little eye scanner to open. it should not be this way. The door is always stuck open because nobody takes the time to walk over there and press the button to close it. It should stay automatic like the old version was. I know it looks cool, and it goes with a blackmesa theme, but you grow to dislike it when it's constantly stuck open and you're bombarded with hordes of enemies.


I think blackmesa v2t3 was a great map. In fact I played that map almost every day for the last 3-4 months. The new version became "bleh" with all the craziness added to the map.

I know it's ridiculously hard to do mapmaking. It takes a lot of skill, patience, and talent to make something as great as blackmesa. i was really excited to play it when you talked about the cool changes you made. But the new version has changed way too much for me to like it anymore.

 

[xosniper]

Salty has logged a alot of hours on that map. His assessment of the new version is an accurate one from HIS point of view. There are many points of view on that map, and everyone of them should be treated with an open mind. Sure, he doesn't like some of the changes, and that's fine. He was wanting to post his thought and feelings (and vent some I'm sure ) and see if anyone else feels the same/worse/indifferent.

I agree partially about sending pm's directly to DH about thoughts on the changes, but I think we are all civil enough to handle a post about it also.

Or are we?