Stop Complaining- Start Playing

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Opeth!

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How often have you gone into an eGO server and heard one of these phrases

"Why do we have 4 snipers?"
"We don't need 3 spies."
"One of you snipers change to medic. You're not helping the team."

If you haven't heard this, then you're probably the one issuing these statements. Really, it's become the crutch of the TF2 division. Anytime your team loses, blame the snipers and spies, because obviously they were the reason your team lost. This behavior isn't just limited to pub players, but is a community wide issue.

I'll be damned if I've ever heard someone in a server say "We don't need 5 soldiers"Yet anytime a team begins to struggle it's "blame the snipers" or "blame the spies". It's the crutch of the division. Tf2 has 9 classes. All of them can contribute to the team. Maybe these players contribute best by playing that class. Maybe not. In any case, we can't assume what's best for them. Assumptions make ______ (hint: the word starts with an a.)

Maybe the team lost because your team didnt communicate properly, or because, heaven forbid, you made a mistake. It's ok. We all make mistakes. Just don't make the sniper and the spy the scapegoat for all of your teams ailments.

TL;DR -- Stop compaining- start playing. Trust me, you'll have more fun.
 
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I agree, i was on turbine and we lost badly and i got blamed for being a bad spy?
this is uncool :P
 
5 soldiers are more useful than a dozen snipers and 2 dozen spies. One or 2 of the latter is fine, but anyone who plays spy regularly will tell you that several just makes it harder for any of them to do anything. And 6 snipers hanging around the back padding the scoreboard might result in a few kills, but it won't help an offensive push as soon as you turn the corner, and it certainly won't stop one if you're playing defense.

In particular when we have 6 snipers and no medics, you better believe I'm going to ask them to do something useful.

I don't mind losing when it's a good game. I do mind losing because half the people on my team are being selfish jerks.
 
@ Sumelar,

This is exactly the kind of behavior I'm speaking of. We need to get rid of that kind of attitude. It only makes the situation worse, because arguments begin, eGO comes across as whining, etc.

Also, stat padding can apply to any class. See anyone who hides in vents. Not a sniper issue. Where are all the people that complain about sniper when a heavy just sits in vent the whole game? How come the heavy isn't called out? Or the medic who just hides behind him?

Again, its a crutch. The sniper and spy is blamed for every ailment of the team. When often, the situation is more complicated than that. Stop making these 2 classes the scapegoats.
 
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Everyone is entitled to their opinion of the best way to play the game. In that same vein everyone is entitled to play the game however they would like. If someone wants to play a sniper when there are 6 other snipers, that's fine. If someone wants to suggest nicely that they feel it would be nice for there to be an extra medic or another soldier instead of a 7th sniper, that's fine as well. That's all part of playing a game and communicating in an attempt to have a winning team.

That being said, don't turn it from a suggestion to an order OR a complaint. If you ask once or twice and no one switches, then drop the subject. If you see another player bring up the subject, then let them do it (assuming they don't go off the deep end). It's important that we all play nicely in the servers, and part of that means allowing everyone the right to their opinion.

In the end it means that both Opeth and Sumelar have valid points. Just remember it's a game above anything else.
 
Opeth! said:
@ Sumelar,

This is exactly the kind of behavior I'm speaking of. We need to get rid of that kind of attitude. It only makes the situation worse, because arguments begin, eGO comes across as whining, etc.

Also, stat padding can apply to any class. See anyone who hides in vents. Not a sniper issue.
Click to expand...

To some people, part of having fun is winning, or at least knowing that you have a chance of winning.

I play a lot of 2Fort, so that's what I mostly know, and having three spies and three snipers on 2Fort is extremely limiting. This is because Soldiers and Demos have the advantage due to the cramped spaces which can do loads of damage to crowds of people at once. Demoman is king in 2Fort, Snipers and Spies are severely limited. Snipers do best on defense, especially if the enemy is using lots of Heavy rushes, but Spies have little to do other than picking up the intel only to die moments later or being a defensive Spy, which is slow and mostly ineffective. Using Spies offensively doesn't work very well because there are other less risky, far quicker, and far more effective ways of taking out Sentry nests and the like. It's also difficult to use the Sniper offensively because the cramped map design has no useful escape routes for Snipers if they are approached.

On the other hand, you have a map like Turbine, where both the Sniper and the Spy have a lot more freedom to do what they need to do.

It's not a matter of how good the player is, it's how much the class can really contribute to a team on a certain map. Classes like the Soldier, Demo, Medic, and Engineer are pretty much useful on any pub map. The rest are relatively situational.
 
@ trykael

I'm not opposed to suggestions for team makeup and strategy, that's part of the game. It's when these 2 classes are accused as to why the team lost and constantly made into scapegoats that I feel is a poor attitude to have.

Phrases like "We lost because we had 4 snipers" I see in the servers all of the time. That's another way of being disrespectful to other players. Basically saying "We lost because of players X, Y and Z"
 
trykael said:
If you ask once or twice and no one switches, then drop the subject.
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I do.

You don't see people complaining about 5 soldiers because soldiers are mobile, and work well with other classes. Even the best hunstman snipers are restricted to one area, and with the exception of sapping a gun right as a push comes around the corner, spies work alone. When you have 5 people who work alone trying to work alone in a small map, they end up doing a whole lot of nothing. Same as when you have 5 snipers covering the same doorway.

Spy and sniper complaints are just the most common, they're not the only ones. It's the same deal as 3 people going engineer on blue on the first point of an A/D map, or half a team of scouts on red.

People can certainly play the game how they like, to an extent. But people need to understand that some things just don't work.
 
@ xosniper
you should know I've already covered the market there

@Dragz
I would disagree with most of that. However, I do always play to win and play for fun, and yes, winning makes games more fun
 
Opeth! said:
@ trykael

I'm not opposed to suggestions for team makeup and strategy, that's part of the game. It's when these 2 classes are accused as to why the team lost and constantly made into scapegoats that I feel is a poor attitude to have.

Phrases like "We lost because we had 4 snipers" I see in the servers all of the time. That's another way of being disrespectful to other players. Basically saying "We lost because of players X, Y and Z"
Click to expand...

No, it's more like saying we lost because we had poor class chemistry.

On 2Fort, if you're playing a 6 vs. 6, I'd be most comfortable having something like a Scout, a Soldier, two Demos, and Engineer, and a Medic rather than three Spies and three Snipers because the former team would be a lot more effective on this map than the latter (especially on the defensive end).

I know it doesn't really scale up perfectly with more players, but the same concept applies. Spies and Snipers are support classes. They shouldn't make up the bulk of the team, they should be peripheral. It barely ever happens because Medic is not a popular class, but if a Medic takes up the bulk of a team on 2Fort, they would also lose.

Same for Engineer turtlefests: they inevitably lead to losses (unless they were already up by a lot).

Same for prolonged Scout rushes, they simply can't get past the Sentries well enough.

Same for Heavy rushes, you just need two good Huntsman Snipers and a chokepoint.

It's class chemistry, not the players. Even if they were fabulous players, it most likely would not have worked out because they're just not as effective.

That being said, the idea of ordering a specific person to play something else is silly, but I am not above strongly suggesting that one of those four Spies play something else (especially considering more than three Spies really makes all of the Spies useless, and even three is really pushing it, even on a 32-man server).
 
@ Sumelar

spies can work perfectly well with the team. technology has given us mic's to use to coordinate strategy and etc. while in game. Sure, not all spies do this, but many a time a spy has been the reason to access a certain area (ie. sapping a gun that is heavily gaurded and letting his team know to shoot at the gun while the engy is distracted by the spy)
 
@ Dragz

When people hit tab to look at scoreboard they see who the 4 snipers are, and thus, see who is being called out as the reason the team lost.


Your example of 3 spies and 3 snipers on a 6 person team is a bit extreme, not to mention that competitve style play (6v6) differs greatly from a 32 person server. I too would take a team of what you listed, but that's not the point I'm trying to get across. My point is that the attitude of "blame the snipers and spies" is a poor one and one that plagues the division.
 
The main times when I open my mouth to ask someone to change class is when there is no medics and my team is getting steam rolled. Just one uber makes a BIG difference. Unless you have pro airblasting pyros in your team and at the right place, there's not much you can do.

I have played +6 vs +6 games where the team is full of spies, snipers and engies where I am the only soldier or demo. You try playing Dustbowl with that team when attacking. The other team just needs one combo to be able to push all the attacks back really, with the help of maybe one or two sentries.

It's all about having fun, we all know that, but when you're facing a team that's beating you in every way possible, the fun is pretty one-sided. If your team is really unbalanced, class wise, it's really frustrating to try to play if you know you could do better if things were just a little better organized.
 
While there's nothing inherently WRONG about asking politely for someone to be a medic or something, even that's pretty useless because it's not like your teammates can't see how many of each class there is. And between jarate and sappers, spies and snipers are pretty effective. Heck, if they all had different weapons, I bet a team of snipers and spies really could do alright.
 
Hi Guys,

Just my pennys worth.

I think it does not matter how many of a particular class you have playing, as long as the people playing the particular class are good. There are some player who work excellently as spies and snipers that can help the team greatly.

However, a way around to solve the issue of too many of one class is to restict how many players can play a particular class on the server, I have been on servers where there is only 3 Engies, 3 Snipers, etc allowed.

In any case, I think the secret to winning a game, is not necessarily just on ability, but communication and working together as a team, I have played a few games where the team has worked excellently, with players willing to change class as necessary to get the job done.

I agree with Opeth!, most of us have mic's and all it takes to win is good communication.

Anyway it is only a game, if a team looses it is due to all of the players not one individual on that team.

All the best
 
It's my team I can scoot if I want to. Scouts on Dustbowl, check scouts on any vavle map check
scouts on a plane check. scouts on every plane, no there yet.
 
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