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Understood. And I will change up my classes more often. just so everyone has a good time.
Stop Complaining- Start Playing
- Thread starter Opeth!
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I think Quaffer's post does a better job with this issue. I think we can ALL agree with the sentiment that complaining doesn't make the game any more enjoyable for anyone. Teamwork can overcome most issues.
Where the OP falls short here is that "play whatever class you like" doesn't work in a competitive game. I don't even mean a professionally competitive game - a close pub game is a perfectly good example.
If the other team has a good class balance and is playing well together, no amount of teamwork will make 3 snipers, 3 spies, 3 scouts and 11 of anything a winning team.
That said, it is totally right that people should lead by example. Complaining won't fix anything. Communicating the needs of the team to the other players on the team will always work better.
Where the OP falls short here is that "play whatever class you like" doesn't work in a competitive game. I don't even mean a professionally competitive game - a close pub game is a perfectly good example.
If the other team has a good class balance and is playing well together, no amount of teamwork will make 3 snipers, 3 spies, 3 scouts and 11 of anything a winning team.
That said, it is totally right that people should lead by example. Complaining won't fix anything. Communicating the needs of the team to the other players on the team will always work better.
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Thats awesome i agree fully
Shrug. That's just my experience and that of other players with thousands of hours played. Like I said, I agree that people complain too much about what classes people are playing. I'm just saying there is some merit to players asking their teammates to play more needed classes.
Given equal skill and teamwork:
3 soldiers, 3 medics, 2 demos, 1 heavy, 1 pyro, 2 engies, 1/2 snipers, 1/2 spies, 1/2 scouts
will DESTROY
3 snipers, 3 spies, 3 scouts, 2 engies, 1 demo, 1 heavy, 1 medic, 1 soldier, 1 pyro.
And the thing is, sometimes the class mix is even worse than that. It's not uncommon to see 5 snipers on one team. There's nothing wrong with nicely asking folks to change (and leading by example). It's TEAM fortress - not I carry the team on my back fortress.
I'm no General, but it seems to me that 2fort would usually be easier with even MORE snipers, provided that they'd actually support others instead of having 6 snipers shooting 6 other snipers
It's mainly because, if they're all on the battlements, you need only one Soldier, Scout, or Demoman to get rid of them all. If not kill them all, at least distract them really well and at least kill a few.
If they try to remedy this by putting a Sentry on the Battlements to protect the Snipers, then that is a waste of a sentry.
It's simply not cost-effective.
Because they simply can't be as productive as a team with better class chemistry.
To put it simply, classes like Spies and Snipers have huge gaping weaknesses which are built into the character and are easily exploited. You only need one Soldier to take out a bunch of Snipers on the deck. You only need one Pyro to watch your back to keep every Spy at bay.
But Soldiers pretty much have no major weaknesses. Neither do Demos. Neither do Scouts. And, on 2Fort, neither do Engies. So, overall, they can do a lot more a lot more effectively, especially with a few competent Medics backing them up.
Have you seen a Soldier/Demo+Medic rush on a 2Fort round start before? It's almost invariably devastating. And we all know how well a Scout rush can perform at the beginning of a CTF round. But a Sniper rush? Best you can hope for is that you end up a stalemate at the initial fight. A Spy rush? Forget about it, as soon as one guy reveals himself, the rest are boned.
It's simply not cost-effective.
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They can't be, it's a pub.
Every class has strengths and weaknesses. That was part of the whole design of TF2.
I'd also point out that most of your commentary relates to 2fort. While I understand your point of snipers on the deck and how many get into "sniper wars" this is not TF2 stuff I'm referring to. That map inherently has flaws that lead to turtling and other such unproductive behavior that isn't just limited to the sniper class.
Mostly, I'm referring to maps where the majority of the team is attempting to win. Most of the time, that can't be said of maps like 2Fort or Mesa, where winning isn't the primary objective of most players. Sure, some players are constantly trying to win, but the majority adopt a "i don't want to die" strategy and camp and avoid completing the objective on maps such as this. In cases like this, it really doesn't matter what class you are. You'd need to change the mindset of the player before you started worrying about what class they are playing.
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Opeth. i'm guessing your the sniper that gets blamed for a loss?
well. get of sniper XP
well. get of sniper XP
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Having five soldiers can do no harm, having five spies simply cripples the team.
If anything, having five spies is counterproductive.
It's one thing to lose because one side outplayed the other, it's another thing losing when half your team aren't helping the fight.
Let's consider this: Which is "worse", too many soldiers, or too many spies?
Truth be told, that's precisely why a team would lose, four snipers dooms a team, as would 4 spies. When you see a team with 3 spies and no medics, it implies that those players believe that having a spy is more important than a medic.
Seriously?
If anything, having five spies is counterproductive.
It's one thing to lose because one side outplayed the other, it's another thing losing when half your team aren't helping the fight.
Let's consider this: Which is "worse", too many soldiers, or too many spies?
Truth be told, that's precisely why a team would lose, four snipers dooms a team, as would 4 spies. When you see a team with 3 spies and no medics, it implies that those players believe that having a spy is more important than a medic.
Seriously?
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Alright...I think it's about time to lock this thread before it gets any more out of hand. In the long run, everyone is allowed to play whatever class they want whenever they want. It's a game folks, please remember that. If someone chooses to play sniper or spy then don't ride them for it. End of discussion.
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