Spawn camping.

[xShuriken]

Sparking from an incident that happened earlier tonight, it seems that several members here have different definitions of what 'spawn camping' is. This is to be expected, of course... but it's confusing a couple of our e's, as they aren't exactly sure when to call an admin into the server.

These things are more often discussed in the admin section, but maybe we should come to a more public consensus on what actually constitutes spawn/exit camping, and the differences between the two as clarification for our recruits. Some see firing into spawn as spawn camping, others see sitting outside of the spawn but waiting until the enemy leaves as spawn camping, others see fighting right outside of spawn as spawn camping... and they are apparently being given various different definitions by various different admins. What is spawn camping to one admin is not spawn camping to another, and this results in 'chastising' of individuals for calling an admin in... by admins. >_> Which is, frankly, a bit much.

This is, clearly, slightly problematic. While not a pressing issue, it's still one that should be somewhat put to rest. These things have been discussed in the past, but those were on prior versions of the map and most of the newer members have never even read it.

The map in question is, you guessed it, Dust.

 

[SgtBeavis]

I do happen to see people firing in alot on the INS side in Dust server especially RPG and M203 on the alpha side exit

 

[Cruel Device]

I knew I've already seen a thread regarding Dust2 and spawncamping, took me a couple of minutes to find it, though.
Too save you the work, here's the link.
It's in the division's discussion forum, so everybody should be able to read it.

For all who have access, in the Insurgency-specific admin 101 you'll find some more general info on how to determine if a sitution is spawncamping.


The most simple definition: If it is disrupting the server, it is spawncamping

 

[Gunney]

I'd rather talk about it in vent but this works as well.

Look this was brought up because i totally understood the rules of dust2 before i ever even started playing in there. But apparently alot of our admins dont understand the rules on spawn camping in dust2 so they tell me its not allowed. As i know that isnt the truth i told them that no it is allowed, ofcourse that did no good at all and people were starting to get warned for it. Now because of this it confused me as to what i should do here because i've got the actual RULES for this server in my head and then i've got admins telling me i am completely wrong and its always not been allowed to spawn camp there. I told shuriken to come in because of spawn campers but at the same time i was confused as to why im even doing this because i know its allowed. Shuriken tells me its allowed and i tell him i've been confused by a few other admins as far as the rules here and i figured they had been revised once again and disallowed spawn camping. Im not gonna say that didnt annoy me because it really did, im sorry but it's your responsibility as an admin to know your clan's server rules to avoid making such mistakes. Had this not been brought who knows someone could have eventually gotten temporarily banned or worse for actually abiding by server rules.

The point being. YES, SPAWN CAMPING IS ALLOWED IN THERE. The only thing that isnt allowed is firing INTO spawn. To clear up all the confusion.

 

[Burt_Reynolds]

Ok here is what I tell people about spawn camping on dust. Fireing/nading directly into spawn is not allowed. Dust has three exits for marines and kind of three exits for ins. If two of these exits are being camped choose the third exit and find and kill the spawn camper. This can be much more satifying than complaining about it all the time. Rallying the troops to help in your cause can be helpfull as well. Dust is a small map and exit camping happens it is just part of the dust experiance.

 

[Cacophonus]

Wow. Misconceptions out the wazooh.

First off- Spawn Camping = firing into the enemy spawn, or actually being present in their spawn and firing inside. However, this has one caveat to be discussed in a second.

Exit Camping = firing at the exit of a spawn. This is *allowed* by the official rules (at least, it is not blacklisted as spawn camping is), we have them posted somewhere here as a sticky if I recall correctly.

Examples of the above, demonstrating the differences- Map is dust. Insurgent fires into the A spawn exit for the marines, killing marines before they leave the spawn bunker or killing them on the Bravo side-exit. This is Spawn Camping.

Insurgent camps the crack area of Bravo, and fires at the bravo exit. There is no way to directly fire into spawn- anywhere you shoot, its exit camping. Even nades- as long as they (and rpgs for that matter) explode OUTSIDE of the spawn, it is exit, not spawn, camping.


Now, for the caveat- on any map, if someone on the spawning team iron sights, or fires, from spawn or another restricted area, they and all of their surrounding teammates are fair game. Take Sinjar- insurgents are generally forced to wait until the marines reach the humvees before firing. If a marine hops out of spawn towards A, and pops up his iron sights (ie. preparing for a kill) or fires his weapon, insurgents can legally open up on every marine on the alpha side of the exit (obivously stopping before the next wave). Spawns aren't one-way safe zones. They are either two-way safes, or killzones.

Also, for a Dust specific note. The map is bugged to hell- you can fire an rpg at a specific locations and kill people through the walls (hitting at the proper angle on the marine spawn, for instance, will kill people in the ladder- keep in mind that the rpg is hitting the outside wall >.>). Not to mention you kill your own teammates through glitches more often than not using the rpg. Hey look, they are running down the B-C stairs, I fire at the B-spawn hallway and kill them! weee!!!

 

[GoldenPSP]

There are definitely issues with the Dust rules for spawncamping. One is misunderstanding. Burt's post above is a perfect example. From the Dust rules post it actually says nothing about firing into spawn. And in fact firing at spawn is generally accepted on Dust. Largely because players will use the spawn as a point at which to fire out. I can tell you that if I am getting shot at by someone IN their spawn, I will fire back and kill them IN their spawn.

Nading inside spawn is a different matter however.

The second problem with the Dust specific rules, coming from an admin, is that they are largely un-enforcable. 5 seconds here or there in the "protected areas"? For one, none of the pubs know these rules, nor would I expect them to since they aren't part of the server (I would not expect pubs to come to these boards searching out the rules beforehand)

Additionally, unless i want to spend my time as a spectator, it is virtually impossible to enforce the 5 second rules. At least not enough to make a difference.

Plus it is confusing to try. For example, you can fire from the B crack in the wall, or the boxes next to the double door until the cows come home. But move anywhere else and its a protected area.

So personally the way I generally handle dust is as follows

No nading or RPGing spawns
Deal with really bad offendors, such as people who lay down under the Marine B side spawn exit.

Otherwise deal with it, as it is the nature of that map.

For the most part, entering Dust and complaining about spawn camping is akin to entering the desert and complaining about the lack of water.

 

[USCG Hammer]

lets set a day / time where we can all meet in Vent and discuss these issues to set a guideline for all of us to enforce / follow.

 

[Cacophonus]

I really don't understand what's so difficult to warp your head around, for everyone that's confused. Specific maps have specific rules (sinjar, buhriz, abdallah (sp?), ramadi (sp?) to name a few) that are followed when we play them. Others (dust is really the only one I can think of here) have specific rules, but since no one seems to know them, we just play it cool and use the general rules. All other maps fall under the general rules category- nothing special. Simply if shooting inside spawn as an enemy combatant, its camping; same with shooting into the enemy spawn. If the spawning team iron sights or fires while inside a "safe" zone (spawn or artificial), they and all their surrounding teammates are fair game to any form of retaliation. Exit camping, having not been officially blacklisted, is allowed in all of these maps, though generally frowned upon (and in certain cases can be considered virtual spawn camping, such as underneath the B -marine exit in dust).

 

[JESUS(inactive)]

This topic will be further discussed in admin round table tonight!!!! Be there!!!

 

[rtdriver]

Sound like I need to have anther class on spawn camping and exit camping