A (civil) debate: Updates Vs. Vanilla

[DRaGZ]

Alright, now that Auto has dropped his text wall o' doom, I feel that I can do the same.


Here's the abstract, so you can safely skip the rest of my post: I love updates. I don't care if they release a million new weapons for each class, and I don't care if they're all completely unbalanced. They change the face of the game, the cause innovation, and they change the inherent tactical principles upon which the game operates. In other words, they keep it nice and fresh.


Now, for those who want to come along for the full ride, read on:



As auto said earlier, every online FPS has ninjas. If you watch some counterstrike sniper frag videos, you won't even understand. Honestly? They scope, they shoot, someone dies. Did you see them? No. Why? Because they were behind a truck and their arm was visible through a 3 millimeter gap in one of the side view mirrors. Seriously, that's ridiculous. COD and DOD are the same way; there are people who are so ridiculously good that trying to kill them in the average way is a matter of luck if you're new to the game.

TF2 is the same way. You can be pretty great at any class, and people of any other class are going to have a hard time getting you. It doesn't actually matter what weapons the other guy has; if you can pipe him and slice his head off with an axe before he can fire said weapon, said weapon is pretty superfluous, no?


As far as I'm concerned, I don't particularly care what weapons the other guys have. Hell, I'd be happy to give the heavy a suit of armor that doubles his health and a minigun that shoots fire-breathing bees. It doesn't matter. The fun of the game for someone who has played it long enough to approach mastery of a given class is adaptation. I'd love to fight that heavy as a demoman; I'd like to see what I could do to counteract his new arsenal. I probably would die the first few times. Sure. But I'd also probably learn, and eventually adapt.


I don't play scout often, but I tend to hear the most whining about them. After all, they have 'insta-win guns'. They walk up behind you with a FAN or the shortstop and you're done, right? Well, here's the real question: If a scout came up behind you with the scatter gun and you weren't paying attention, would you fare worse than if he had a FAN? Not at all. You're done either way. Two shots of either is enough to kill most things, and realistically, you won't have the time to turn around and kill the scout before he gets the second shot off no matter WHAT weapon he has. If he's coming from the front, it doesn't matter either; He's just as easy to direct pipe as he was before.


TL;DR

The weapons are a function of their user's skill. If you sucked with a class before, the new weapons won't make you instantly awesome. You'll still lack the awareness that you did before, your reaction time will still be slower, your aim still won't be as good. The basic things aren't going to change; you still need the basic skills, after all.

Moreover, if you're great at a given class, and you get a great new weapon for that class, you're going to need to adapt to be able to use it well, and you're going to need some practice. "Instant win guns" do not exist; only people who give them that name because they have a hard time adapting to their use.

I would say the biggest flaw to this argument is that Natascha makes the Heavy easier to play for those who weren't good at Heavy before, and those who WERE good at Heavy only become stronger.

It's not really a matter of "adapting to the Natascha" because it's just an outright better gun: what better way to put yourself on an even footing with your opponent than making sure he's as slow as you are?

 

[a pet rock]

That has to be the first time superfluous has been used on these forums ever regardless of if I agree with its usage.

 

[Carmine]

I would say the biggest flaw to this argument is that Natascha makes the Heavy easier to play for those who weren't good at Heavy before, and those who WERE good at Heavy only become stronger.

It's not really a matter of "adapting to the Natascha" because it's just an outright better gun: what better way to put yourself on an even footing with your opponent than making sure he's as slow as you are?

Natascha isn't that great, totally gimps you if you ever run up against another heavy, which is rather common, and if they are using Sasha then you are dead. Personally I would rather do more damage than have a slow, because I can aim, and the extra damage usually prevent escape anyways. It is just a differing play style.

 

[Mr. Teriyaki]

Updates make the game much interesting. if there were no updates, everyone would get bored and stop playing TF2 and move to LoL!!! *lol dunno*if the ppl move to a different game Valve would stop making revenue and there would be not much profit since the game itself is $10 and in the promotional times it goes down to at least $2 (halloween 2009).

 

[KhaoticOrd3r]

I'm a conscientious objector to this poll... but I will say that I hate Dreadmaker and everything he stands for. Be that vanilla or updated.

 

[zombie allah]

the update is fine.

i don't like all the afk's doing trades and the trade kiddies begging for metal or constantly opening up unsolicited trade requests.

that is my only complaint but then it is fun to mock trade items.


wtt my dignity for a hound dog.

 

[Dreadmaker]

At Dragz:

I agree with you about Natascha more than basically any other weapon. It can definitely be a pain to deal with, and as someone who often plays targe demo, it can be downright infuriating to have my charge destroyed from halfway across the map.

However, I would argue that it doesn't fundamentally change either the heavy's role or how you deal with him. If I'm a targe demo, I wouldn't be charging an aware heavy anyhow, because I'd be dead before I could kill him. It doesn't matter what weapon he has; that doesn't change. Equally, if I'm a sniper or a spy, the Natascha makes it not harder or easier to kill him.

It can be bloody annoying, sure, but I have to side with Carmine here; I prefer using Sasha as a heavy because I win against other heavies, and better yet, I can aim, and so I prevent people from getting away from me in a rather more effective way.

 

[Myfriendfats]

It definitely keeps it fresh and new, but some items I can go without. I've been playing since vanilla way back in the day and playing vanilla always brings back memories, but keeping things new and interesting rakes in more new players.

 

[DRaGZ]

Natascha isn't that great, totally gimps you if you ever run up against another heavy, which is rather common, and if they are using Sasha then you are dead. Personally I would rather do more damage than have a slow, because I can aim, and the extra damage usually prevent escape anyways. It is just a differing play style.

At Dragz:

I agree with you about Natascha more than basically any other weapon. It can definitely be a pain to deal with, and as someone who often plays targe demo, it can be downright infuriating to have my charge destroyed from halfway across the map.

However, I would argue that it doesn't fundamentally change either the heavy's role or how you deal with him. If I'm a targe demo, I wouldn't be charging an aware heavy anyhow, because I'd be dead before I could kill him. It doesn't matter what weapon he has; that doesn't change. Equally, if I'm a sniper or a spy, the Natascha makes it not harder or easier to kill him.

It can be bloody annoying, sure, but I have to side with Carmine here; I prefer using Sasha as a heavy because I win against other heavies, and better yet, I can aim, and so I prevent people from getting away from me in a rather more effective way.

Natascha is only bad against other regular Minigun Heavies, and even then that can be mitigated given the right circumstances (although this has been less true since the spin-up changes).

Overall, Natascha can shut down classes who otherwise would have been able to use the environment to their advantage. It's the difference between taking three direct grenades from that Demoman popping in and out of the corner and taking him out decisively.

I think the big problem with the Natascha Heavy is that the easiest way to deal with the Natascha Heavy is to go regular Minigun Heavy, that's a behavior that just fundamentally leads to class imbalance.

And I would argue that it really DOES change how you fundamentally deal with a Heavy. For instance, it's no longer a good idea to attack him from medium range around a corner, because now that means you're entangled and unable to run away. Combat classes like Soldier, Demoman, and Scout that used to take advantage of corner-popping can no longer do so.

Then again, weapons like Huntsman and Eyelander/Targe also fundamentally change how you handle those classes. You may use many of the core base skills you used before, like effective aiming combine with fragile health or grenade launching skills, but enemies also need to watch out for very specific things, like instant headshot when up close (nearly impossible to avoid a headshot in lieu of a bodyshot because the arrow comes out from the side of the Sniper's head at close range) and that Demoman suddenly charging straight at you when he injured you.