R.I.P BlackMesa
- Thread starter Wize
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Yes, losing Black Mesa is sad as it is the majority of the TF2 divisional members favorite map, but I think this is the best thing to do. Servers come in go in every division and it is sad to see. You say that Black Mesa is very fun and popular, and I agree with you, but if the server is left empty most of the time it shows to leadership that it is not fun and popular. Many people are mad about it being replaced by Dustbowl, but why? I'm sure if Black Mesa was replaced by any other map many people will still be mad because they lost their beloved Black Mesa, and boycotting an eGO server is not the way to go. It is still, after all, an eGO server and from my point of view boycotting a server because we lost a different server is a very selfish and immature thing to do. Just beacuse Black Mesa is gone doesn't mean you have to lose all hope in eGO, find a new server to have fun with friends or pubs. We are still eGO and can still be strong without Black Mesa.
Oh yeah, what about Steve??? Did anyone ask if this was ok with him? LOL
black mesa was the first tf2 server i ever played on, then one day while playing on mesa, i got a friend request from kenny, he asked me if i wanted to join ego, and i was already joining ego, he helped me, and then i played on mesa when ever there was 1 person on it. i can remember sitting in spec, waiting for other people to join, and flying around the map, looking in every nook and crany
R.I.P mesa, i <3 you
R.I.P mesa, i <3 you
What people don't seem to understand here, and I think many agree with me here, is that we aren't quitting because you are removing Blackmesa. Sure, Blackmesa was a cool map, but its much more than that. To many of us including me, Blackmesa was a symbol of the true eGO TF2 community; a place where it was basically a 24/7 private / public server for all of us to go to and have a fantastic time with all our buddies. Sort of like the event servers, except all the time. You cannot say the same for our quickplay servers; I visit them, and all I see is a shallow representation of the eGO community. Its all ambiguity, and really all I see is a bunch of people who would tear each other apart given the chance except for the rules we enforce. They do not reflect our community at all.
The reason I joined eGO was because the quality of the community here and on Blackmesa impressed me so much. I usually never join clans or public communities like this; I've had absolutely terrible, horrible experiences with them in the past. So, when I say I joined eGO because it has a good community, it sure as hell has a great community. On mesa, I loved how talkative everyone was, how friendly they were, how it was all about having fun rather than regurgitating shoot-outs between complete strangers you never see again. Blackmesa was a place you could always find a bunch of eGO players on, or at least dedicated followers of the eGO principles. I'm sure the situation was true for all the past eGO servers that got eliminated that I never got to see.
Making a profit in a business in order to keep services alive and money flowing is one thing; but if you can't keep your customers (or in this case, members) happy, then that's bad business sense. If you want your quickplay +rank servers so badly, then make them! I have no problem with our community growing! Others and I DO have a problem with you removing one of our only true eGO servers we have left. I could say a lot of worse things here about the choices management has made in the past year, but I'll hold my tongue.
I'm not opposed to the idea of a custom maps rotation; honestly, if it were my choice, I'd like to see a revival of tc_hydro, the best map ever made (that valve curiously abandoned in favor of payload). Maybe include some of those other incredible custom maps like ctf_aerospace. Sounds like a great idea, but from how the higher ups have shown me how they treat this community, I doubt it will ever happen. I will be attending the blackmesa events, because I hope to see more of our beloved community there.
In conclusion, I'm not boycotting cp_dustbowl because its replacing cp_blackmesa, although I will admit I seriously despise the map. Others and I are boycotting because the higher-ups are so ignorant of the fact that they just eliminated a part of eGO's soul. We want that part of our community back! I'm seriously thinking of quitting eGO as well if this sort of behavior keeps up in the future, because I see no reason to be part of a community that breaks my heart.
The reason I joined eGO was because the quality of the community here and on Blackmesa impressed me so much. I usually never join clans or public communities like this; I've had absolutely terrible, horrible experiences with them in the past. So, when I say I joined eGO because it has a good community, it sure as hell has a great community. On mesa, I loved how talkative everyone was, how friendly they were, how it was all about having fun rather than regurgitating shoot-outs between complete strangers you never see again. Blackmesa was a place you could always find a bunch of eGO players on, or at least dedicated followers of the eGO principles. I'm sure the situation was true for all the past eGO servers that got eliminated that I never got to see.
Making a profit in a business in order to keep services alive and money flowing is one thing; but if you can't keep your customers (or in this case, members) happy, then that's bad business sense. If you want your quickplay +rank servers so badly, then make them! I have no problem with our community growing! Others and I DO have a problem with you removing one of our only true eGO servers we have left. I could say a lot of worse things here about the choices management has made in the past year, but I'll hold my tongue.
I'm not opposed to the idea of a custom maps rotation; honestly, if it were my choice, I'd like to see a revival of tc_hydro, the best map ever made (that valve curiously abandoned in favor of payload). Maybe include some of those other incredible custom maps like ctf_aerospace. Sounds like a great idea, but from how the higher ups have shown me how they treat this community, I doubt it will ever happen. I will be attending the blackmesa events, because I hope to see more of our beloved community there.
In conclusion, I'm not boycotting cp_dustbowl because its replacing cp_blackmesa, although I will admit I seriously despise the map. Others and I are boycotting because the higher-ups are so ignorant of the fact that they just eliminated a part of eGO's soul. We want that part of our community back! I'm seriously thinking of quitting eGO as well if this sort of behavior keeps up in the future, because I see no reason to be part of a community that breaks my heart.
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go away noise, you were barely there :sneaky2:
The problem with Blackmesa wasn't the server change. It was the toxic atmosphere that was allowed to fester there that drove away the players.
Seriously allowing trolls to run rampant for far too long was the first strike in a long series of mistakes made by leadership.
I doubt that the tf2 division will be here next year unless some changes are made. There are far too many servers out there that have thriving communities for our servers to be noticed if this keeps up.
If the division truly cares about the future of the tf2 division, they'll need to take its long standing members seriously, treat them with respect and show them that they care.
I doubt that will happen.
Seriously allowing trolls to run rampant for far too long was the first strike in a long series of mistakes made by leadership.
I doubt that the tf2 division will be here next year unless some changes are made. There are far too many servers out there that have thriving communities for our servers to be noticed if this keeps up.
If the division truly cares about the future of the tf2 division, they'll need to take its long standing members seriously, treat them with respect and show them that they care.
I doubt that will happen.
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Unfortunately, I'm going to have to agree with Jubei. Without the community base, the eGO servers have no unique qualities to draw people in. They become just like the thousands of other cookie-cutter servers out there. The community is like a web that catches pubs as they come through the server, and without the strong base from long-standing members and regulars, the web doesn't function, and pubs just move on to the next server. Systematically removing the dual souls of our TF2 community, namely Fast/Instant Respawn 2fort and Black Mesa, forces us back to square one.
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+1 to MSK and Jubei's posts. This amazing lack of insight will not only take you back o square one, but beyond. At this point focus on keeping the membership you have in this division by making them happy, and not being greedy because a ~200 rank server just wasn't "good enough".
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Is this a joke?
If not, wtf happened? Mesa was always popular when I played TF2. Besides 2Fort, it was the only server that always had at least 10 people in it.
If not, wtf happened? Mesa was always popular when I played TF2. Besides 2Fort, it was the only server that always had at least 10 people in it.
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There has been a lot of unrest and upheaval in the TF2 division lately - it's not just the abrupt server changes that have managed to alienate two server communities. There have been threads from respected long-time players complaining about the lack of admining on the servers. Other respected long-time players have mentioned that they don't feel respected, or listened to, by leadership - that it's futile to come to the forums and air concerns because those concerns will just be ignored. Put it all together and these are symptoms of something deeper.
In a thread a couple weeks ago, a comment was made that "all that matters now for the TF2 division is ranking and not the actual server's community or the community's opinion in general. (???)" The response to that from leadership was "Right now? Yes. But in a few months when we have 3 servers that are sub 150, we can talk about the community..."
In my opinion, you will NEVER get those high server rankings you so desire UNTIL you have a community. You can't do it the other way around - you NEED a strong, cohesive community on a server to get the rank up and keep it up. Look at Valve maps. That dedicated group adopted it and loved and worked it into where it is now. Build your community first, and the ranking follows.
Building a community requires listening to your members, especially your loyal long-term members. It means valuing their input. It means communicating with them when change is in the wind, and not just springing the changes on them and saying, "Deal with it." Let the members know there is a problem and give them time to help fix it - most devoted members of a community will go above and beyond if they know there's a problem and they need to help. Those same members will be the ones who are the most bitter and disillusioned if you just make changes that destroy the server.
To me, it isn't the server changes that are the problem. It's the idea that the server community is secondary and expendable, and the feeling that our input doesn't matter. We know you have to justify the servers, and that you have to show that it's the best use of eGO resources to have those servers up. But the way to do that is through the people who play there.
I agree with Jubei, MSK, and Cacophonus that if changes in this attitude aren't made, the TF2 leadership will wake up someday soon and find that their servers are all they have left.
In a thread a couple weeks ago, a comment was made that "all that matters now for the TF2 division is ranking and not the actual server's community or the community's opinion in general. (???)" The response to that from leadership was "Right now? Yes. But in a few months when we have 3 servers that are sub 150, we can talk about the community..."
In my opinion, you will NEVER get those high server rankings you so desire UNTIL you have a community. You can't do it the other way around - you NEED a strong, cohesive community on a server to get the rank up and keep it up. Look at Valve maps. That dedicated group adopted it and loved and worked it into where it is now. Build your community first, and the ranking follows.
Building a community requires listening to your members, especially your loyal long-term members. It means valuing their input. It means communicating with them when change is in the wind, and not just springing the changes on them and saying, "Deal with it." Let the members know there is a problem and give them time to help fix it - most devoted members of a community will go above and beyond if they know there's a problem and they need to help. Those same members will be the ones who are the most bitter and disillusioned if you just make changes that destroy the server.
To me, it isn't the server changes that are the problem. It's the idea that the server community is secondary and expendable, and the feeling that our input doesn't matter. We know you have to justify the servers, and that you have to show that it's the best use of eGO resources to have those servers up. But the way to do that is through the people who play there.
I agree with Jubei, MSK, and Cacophonus that if changes in this attitude aren't made, the TF2 leadership will wake up someday soon and find that their servers are all they have left.
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People wait in line for Mesa, trust me. I remember way back during Mesa's best days that I would have to wait up to 15 minutes each day when I got home from school to get a spot on the server. I used to love the map.
I'd also like to point something out to everyone, Sloppie, CrazyWolf, and Razor's favorite map/server is and was Blackmesa. Now if you've ever spoken to me about Mesa I won't deny that I have come to despise the map because it isn't very well balanced and has some things in it that just really annoy me. Even so, it was still a very tough decision for all of us to make to change Mesa. None of us really wanted to see it go, but we simply can't be having servers that are empty constantly. Those servers all cost money and potential, and an empty server is one that is sucking up our Donator's money but not giving us anything in return.
As Noise has said they will be hosting weekly events for Blackmesa, we are also currently discussing among Leadership other ways to help you guys get your Blackmesa 'fix'.
Here, I'll give you a goal for getting the Blackmesa Server back. This is not a promise because I have not discussed it with any other Leadership member yet, but if you meet all of the following goals then I will personally see what we can do about another one.
If you meet points 1 and 3 then that is grounds for us to try to get a new Server from Council in general, and if you're not meeting point 2 also then there is no reason for us to consider Mesa for the possible new server. If you do not meet all three goals then there is nothing I can do for you, help me help you. But if you are meeting or exceeding all 3 then that will be something I can work with.
Any other Leadership member who also would be willing to discuss another Mesa server if these goals are met can feel free to post that they would also.
Feel free to PM me with any questions, comments, or concerns!
-Kevi
I'd also like to point something out to everyone, Sloppie, CrazyWolf, and Razor's favorite map/server is and was Blackmesa. Now if you've ever spoken to me about Mesa I won't deny that I have come to despise the map because it isn't very well balanced and has some things in it that just really annoy me. Even so, it was still a very tough decision for all of us to make to change Mesa. None of us really wanted to see it go, but we simply can't be having servers that are empty constantly. Those servers all cost money and potential, and an empty server is one that is sucking up our Donator's money but not giving us anything in return.
As Noise has said they will be hosting weekly events for Blackmesa, we are also currently discussing among Leadership other ways to help you guys get your Blackmesa 'fix'.
Here, I'll give you a goal for getting the Blackmesa Server back. This is not a promise because I have not discussed it with any other Leadership member yet, but if you meet all of the following goals then I will personally see what we can do about another one.
- All non Events servers are full the majority of the day, preferably rank 500 or below.
- Blackmesa events are consistently full
- We meet or exceed our recruiting goal regularly
If you meet points 1 and 3 then that is grounds for us to try to get a new Server from Council in general, and if you're not meeting point 2 also then there is no reason for us to consider Mesa for the possible new server. If you do not meet all three goals then there is nothing I can do for you, help me help you. But if you are meeting or exceeding all 3 then that will be something I can work with.
Any other Leadership member who also would be willing to discuss another Mesa server if these goals are met can feel free to post that they would also.
Feel free to PM me with any questions, comments, or concerns!
-Kevi
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The Real Issue
While Kevi's post did address several issues, it did not cover some of the ones brought up by Gypsy, namely the unrest within the TF2 division.
We can try to ignore it all that we want, but it is there, and needs to be dealt with.
While Kevi's post did address several issues, it did not cover some of the ones brought up by Gypsy, namely the unrest within the TF2 division.
We can try to ignore it all that we want, but it is there, and needs to be dealt with.
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I feel the need to point out something...
Mesa used to be extremely popular. A year ago or so, you could expect it to be full at 3am.
Then, for whatever reason, leadership decided to move the server.
The new server sucked, so everybody stopped playing on it.
Now, Mesa has been shutdown due to nobody playing on it.
You don't have to be an O to see what the problem is here... or the solution.
How much did it cost to run the old server for a month?
Mesa used to be extremely popular. A year ago or so, you could expect it to be full at 3am.
Then, for whatever reason, leadership decided to move the server.
The new server sucked, so everybody stopped playing on it.
Now, Mesa has been shutdown due to nobody playing on it.
You don't have to be an O to see what the problem is here... or the solution.
How much did it cost to run the old server for a month?
Lot of deep discussion goin on in this thread- Joined
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I value any and all input from our members, but if you don't come to me to give me input then I can hardly be expected to know about it or do anything about it. I can't remember the last time that I got a PM about someone not liking how the Division was going or someone came to me in Ventrilo to talk about it. Granted I have a poor memory when it comes to those things, but still. Its been a while.
The dropbox is a great place to voice concerns and give suggestions, but if you truly feel that something is wrong and we aren't doing anything about it then there is no substitution for actually talking it out with us over Ventrilo or Steam. Come find me or another Leadership member in Vent or Steam and talk to us.
As for us not being on the servers as much as we could, I can't speak for other Leadership Members, but I personally have played around 2500 hours in TF2 over the last 2-3 years. If you look at my profile it will only say 2150 hours played or so, but there was around 300-400 before the stats reset. I will admit its lost some of its appeal for me. I still try to play an hour or two a day, but I don't always get around to it especially the last couple weeks because I've been very busy IRL and still loving League of Legends. But whenever I'm online I'm in Ventrilo, shoot me a PM if you want to talk. Assuming I'm not at work or AFK I'll answer ASAP (I usually put it in my comment if I am at work or AFK though, but sometimes I forget).
The dropbox is a great place to voice concerns and give suggestions, but if you truly feel that something is wrong and we aren't doing anything about it then there is no substitution for actually talking it out with us over Ventrilo or Steam. Come find me or another Leadership member in Vent or Steam and talk to us.
As for us not being on the servers as much as we could, I can't speak for other Leadership Members, but I personally have played around 2500 hours in TF2 over the last 2-3 years. If you look at my profile it will only say 2150 hours played or so, but there was around 300-400 before the stats reset. I will admit its lost some of its appeal for me. I still try to play an hour or two a day, but I don't always get around to it especially the last couple weeks because I've been very busy IRL and still loving League of Legends. But whenever I'm online I'm in Ventrilo, shoot me a PM if you want to talk. Assuming I'm not at work or AFK I'll answer ASAP (I usually put it in my comment if I am at work or AFK though, but sometimes I forget).
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Please contribute to the discussion rather than repeatedly re-linking Gypsy's post. I understand its a major problem that we need to work through as a Division, but I don't know the solution and I cannot magically conjure up a solution.
I've been in this Division for almost 3 years. I have been a TF2 Division member ever since I joined eGO. I have been a TF2 Leadership member for over a year and a half, I've been here through the good times and the bad. I remember back when we had a 24/7 Gravelpit and a 24/7 Dustbowl server at the same time. I loved the GPit server so much, its the only server I ever played on. It was full most of the time, then Leadership chose to switch it to the Harvest event map for a month along with DBowl. That killed the server, after they changed it back GPit and DBowl both had a lot of problems with filling and Leadership decided they had to do something. They then got rid of one and made the other a GPit/DBowl rotation, which promptly failed, and then they removed the server. I hated that Leadership did that, I thought (and still think) that it was one of the dumbest decisions Leadership ever made. But I now understand that it isn't easy. We make some good decisions, we make some bad decisions. Its as simple as that.
There is no manual for us telling us what to do, we don't have any way to guarantee any sort of an outcome. Choosing a server or changing a server is a complete gamble. We can look at what our members like, we can look at what has and hasn't worked in the past, we can look at other servers and what works with them, but at the end of the day its a roll of the dice. We make a decision (usually after arguing for a while), we change the server, and we roll the dice while praying that the odds will be in our favor.
We're not here to kill the community, we're not trying to make bad decisions, but we're only human. We do the best we can given our resources and our experience, but we don't always make good decisions, and we can't always make decisions that everyone will like, but we always do our best.
Once again don't be afraid to come talk to me, I'm willing to talk to anyone as long as I have time! PM me on the forums if you don't want to talk!
-Kevi
As Dirty Harry informed me about this, I had to come in and read a bit. So far, nothing I have read was unexpected.
But, even though I'm pretty sure no one missed me, I must say that the only reason I stopped playing on mesa, and pretty much other eGO servers, was the IP change. The lag just made it impossible for me to keep playing. When this change happened, I had received some negative feedback about it from the community. The few days that mesa had people (With me playing, of course) I also read negative comments about the change.
So I just stepped back and hoped for the change to be reverted, which as far as I know, never happened.
Now, I'm lacking a lot of data here, but I'll just try to sum it up:
If the server change was unsuccessful and, actually, worst. (Be it for lag issues, or people who lost track of the server, whatever) Why did we stick with it? I don't know, was a rollback out of our reach?
Months have passed and well, I miss playing on BMesa with the regulars. But I seriously doubt it can be fixed now.
But, even though I'm pretty sure no one missed me, I must say that the only reason I stopped playing on mesa, and pretty much other eGO servers, was the IP change. The lag just made it impossible for me to keep playing. When this change happened, I had received some negative feedback about it from the community. The few days that mesa had people (With me playing, of course) I also read negative comments about the change.
So I just stepped back and hoped for the change to be reverted, which as far as I know, never happened.
Now, I'm lacking a lot of data here, but I'll just try to sum it up:
If the server change was unsuccessful and, actually, worst. (Be it for lag issues, or people who lost track of the server, whatever) Why did we stick with it? I don't know, was a rollback out of our reach?
Months have passed and well, I miss playing on BMesa with the regulars. But I seriously doubt it can be fixed now.
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