No Mortar from uncap rule

[BetterCallSaul]

So I got kicked today for mortaring from the uncap during your typical baserape session where teams are completely stacked and we're down 5 players. Regardless I decided to stick it out with my team out of pity, but quickly realized that with this silly "rule" in place you are basically making it impossible for the team to ever break out. Apparently this rule is only in play so long as one side has no cap points whatsoever, but as soon as you have 1 point available suddenly the rules are changed in favor of the base raping team again so that you are forced to walk into slaughter through a very obvious choke point. Allow me to illustrate

If RU owns point E then the next logical spot for US to camp is circled in red here

What this means is that as all of our players push out from left side of E which they are obviously bound to do they will walk into certain death. There is basically no way to stop a small group of people from just mowing them down one by one. Since this is a public server it's pretty obvious that some wonderful coordinated display of teamwork amongst 32 random players is unlikely to occur so we have to be realistic here. It would take no less than 2 full squads acting in perfect harmony to break out of this area with a series of grenades and firepower. Probably a 3rd quad behind them to cover the rear. You might see this in a proleague clan match but not on a 64 man pub.

You know why these shit storm base rape sessions always happen? Because you place ridiculous conditions on how the defending team is allowed to defend. I mean seriously if you cant counter a mortar strike then you need to move on to Hardline or whatever other FPS is easiest for you. Creating asinine rules that benefit the winning team and put the losers into a completely dominated and crushed position is absurd. You might as well make a rule that says the defending side must only use pistols to escape.

If you have any concept of tactics you recognize that to defend one point, you sometimes have to fall back to another. For instance to properly take C you may have to attack from E. If the enemy knows there is an admin who is going to force a handicap on the other team then it becomes highly predictable where they are going to be. If I cant mortar C cliffs then that is one less threat the enemy has to contend with. They now have complete impunity to just sit back and snipe or bipod camp wherever they please, giving them an insane advantage. It's really not fair to dictate the strategies someone else employs especially in a crucial circumstance like baserape where it's near impossible for anyone to break out without getting a little creative.

I look forward to reading the stupid responses for eGo admins here soon, thanks.

 

[alex2142hp1]

Hi BetterCallSaul,

Nice To Meet you. Foremost i would like to thank you for taking the time posting/illustrate.

We are sorry you feel that way about your quote:"stupid responses of eGO admins".

The Rules that we have in place has been on our servers for some time now, we are considering on changing some of our rules, there also has been some discussions about your concerns and we are working on the details as we speak.

Thank you again for taking the time posting.

 

[BetterCallSaul]

I'm sure someone made some kneejerk decision to ban them because "omg thats so lame" but you have to think beyond just some moments of mortar spam that might annoy a few players and instead think of the fact that dice carefully laid out these weapons precisely to counter the kinds of scenarios I just described. If you put a tank in the game then you need to have a tank killer (rpg), if you put an aircraft in the game then you need to have an aircraft killer (stinger), and if you put infantry in the game then you need to have an infantry killer (mortar), especially on compressed maps like Locker where every choke point is heavily guarded. People talk smack about whiners who rage quit when they get base raped, saying things like "if you cant defend your cap point you deserve to get camped". Well with rules like that we cant defend. You cant go around giving people your version of strategy and expect that to work. Let people play with the tools Dice gave them instead of thinking you know best, especially when it's obvious something like an anti-mortar rule was created out of spite from a minority of people who got irritated they couldnt blissfully baserape away all day.

 

[Beemermarine]

Yet we have had this rule for at least 3 years on 3 different battlefield games and our servers are full, several of which if not all are in the top ten servers IN THE WORLD. I am confident this rule will stay in place, and our admins will enforce it.

 

[Scientisto]

Its Actually A Both Way Going Rule.. It Doesnt Allow You To Place Your Mortar In The Uncap, Yes. The Reason For That Is For Your Mortar To Be Killable.. The Rules Also Stop Enemy Team From Entering Your Uncap To Kill That Mortar.. So If We Let You Place Your Mortar In The Uncap, We Also Have To Let Other Team Enter Your Uncap To Kill It, Which Would Cause Even Worse Baserape And Horrible Game.. The Same Rules Also Stop Enemy Team To Mortar Into Your Uncap In All Times Too.. On The Other Hand, Our Rules Also Stop People Using Explosives Into The Uncap While You Can Use Them Out, Which Is Designed To Give Baseraped Team An Advantage, But Not Getting Other Team Slaughtered While Doing So.. It's A Pretty Balances System And Mortaring C Wouldnt Get You Out of The Uncap While There Are 2-3 Snipers Tops At C.. I Play Lockers Everyday And Using A Mortar From The Uncap Is A Very Small Advantage Considering Not Getting Mortared In The Uncap.. Cuz If Mortaring In And Out Would Be Ok, You Would Get Sooo Mortared In The Uncap During A Baserape, You Wouldnt Have A Chance To Put Up A Mortar For Yourself..
So In The End, I Totally Support That Rule For Operation Locker..

 

[BetterCallSaul]

Yet we have had this rule for at least 3 years on 3 different battlefield games and our servers are full, several of which if not all are in the top ten servers IN THE WORLD. I am confident this rule will stay in place, and our admins will enforce it.

What does server population have to do with anything? A vast majority of those players are low rank newbs who are just clicking "Play Now" and end up on your server. Others are like me who really enjoy locker and dont always find an available 64 man high tick locker server with no lag and active admins ready to kick hackers. Believe me if I could play on a more fair locker server I would but yours is simply one of the few. Thats why it gets such high volume, not because people prefer the rules. We're just limited on options.

 

[BetterCallSaul]

The Reason For That Is For Your Mortar To Be Killable..

The mortar is already killable, from other mortars. Thats exactly what you're supposed to do for long range mortar strikes, is just mortar them right back. The slow cooldown time and low ammo capacity balances this out. Usually by the time someone realizes there is an opposing mortar they could be striking they have already wasted their shells on infantry. By the time they place a new mortar to destroy the enemy's he may have already moved his. If he hasnt then boom, you take out his mortar and the roles reverse. In between that period of decision making you get the opportunity to clear our sniper/LMG nests and overall disrupt choke points so that your team can push forward.

The Rules Also Stop Enemy Team From Entering Your Uncap To Kill That Mortar.. So If We Let You Place Your Mortar In The Uncap, We Also Have To Let Other Team Enter Your Uncap To Kill It, Which Would Cause Even Worse Baserape And Horrible Game..

LOL what the hell is "worse" baserape? Baserape is baserape. I'm sorry is finishing the game 1200-0 better than 1300-0? Every single round on your servers end in total baserape of an entire team because you are restricting the strategies available to them to escape. Dice already mitigates this via the redzone effect if you enter an enemy uncap. You can barely see anything and die within seconds. Also those areas of the uncap are designed in such a manner that it would be a complete suicide run to enter them. It's the choke points just outside where the real tactics come in to play. There is an equal opportunity to stop this from the defending side when all strats are employed.

It's A Pretty Balances System And Mortaring C Wouldnt Get You Out of The Uncap While There Are 2-3 Snipers Tops At C..

2-3 snipers is all it takes. They will spot everyone who escapes, inform their team, etc. Suddenly those 2-3 snipers turn into 15 players who respawn at C/B to stop any push they see coming. And it's not just the snipers, it's all the stragglers that are wandering outside that someone who breaks out has to contend with. Not to mention the #1 method by which a backcap occurs is one A SINGLE PLAYER escapes undetected. He then plants a beacon in an unusual spot and suddenly his teammates come pouring in between 2 distant cap points. A single player who ninja's his way out of RU spawn is never going to get past 2-3 snipers on the hills at C.

If Mortaring In And Out Would Be Ok, You Would Get Sooo Mortared In The Uncap During A Baserape, You Wouldnt Have A Chance To Put Up A Mortar For Yourself..

Sure you would, because each of those enemies trying to mortar you are one less person taking aim with a ACE CQB at the choke point. I'd take 10 enemy mortars spamming uncap any day over 10 assault players with loaded guns pointing at me. Eventually those mortars are going to run out of ammo anyway and then you can just pop your own up to take them out. If they have too many mortars that you cant get your own up then you just push forward because now too much of their team is clearly committed to mortars so they wont be defending themselves properly.

What the admins are failing to recognize is the map dynamics. Just because you give 2 sides equal firepower does not give them equal opportunity. The map is specifically designed with overhanging cliffs and ledges so that certain areas provide a distinct advantage over the other. Ever heard of something called higher ground? The US has it when you are being baseraped. Just because we both are using Famas doesnt mean we have have an equal chance to kill each other.

It seems like you have created a bunch of rules to counter other rules when in fact if you just let the game play the way dice intended you wouldnt have any of this mess.

 

[Wizekraker]

The main reason we have this rule it prevent player getting killed in spawn. Here a scenario


One team pushed all the way to spawn and enemy team has commander with UAV above their spawn. Whats stopping the opposing team mortaring from uncap? Nothing, they are more than likely just gonna shoot anyone who is spotted. Being spawned and getting killed instantly from explosives is not pleasant experience.

Furthermore, mortar is one of those weapons which you can get kills without actually seeing the enemy. So in case when one team pushed, I can see many players just switching to mortars and bombing the spawn regardless if there were any mortars in spawn. Now to counter this would require use mortar yourself. As result, you end up seeing 6+ mortars in spawn, having our rule forces players push out of spawn and capture the flag. Another thing, lockers is map where you will rarely get close game, players come for locker for kills and not for a balanced game. If you are playing lockers, you have to accept the fact there is always possibility you will get pushed into spawn. If you want coordination I would suggest joining up in teamspeak. Most of the time there is group playing lockers.

 

[FunkyKiller84]

The main reason we have this rule it prevent player getting killed in spawn. Here a scenario


One team pushed all the way to spawn and enemy team has commander with UAV above their spawn. Whats stopping the opposing team mortaring from uncap? Nothing, they are more than likely just gonna shoot anyone who is spotted. Being spawned and getting killed instantly from explosives is not pleasant experience.

Furthermore, mortar is one of those weapons which you can get kills without actually seeing the enemy. So in case when one team pushed, I can see many players just switching to mortars and bombing the spawn regardless if there were any mortars in spawn. Now to counter this would require use mortar yourself. As result, you end up seeing 6+ mortars in spawn, having our rule forces players push out of spawn and capture the flag. Another thing, lockers is map where you will rarely get close game, players come for locker for kills and not for a balanced game. If you are playing lockers, you have to accept the fact there is always possibility you will get pushed into spawn. If you want coordination I would suggest joining up in teamspeak. Most of the time there is group playing lockers.

Wize and Scientisto said it best. Many times I've been on the team pushed all the way back to the main spawn and rarely has it been a situation where me and my squad could never find and fight a way out. Coordinate, trial and error, and evaluate your opposition on the selected path, and give it all ya got. To be honest, if you have a good 3-5 ppl working in unison, it's really not hard to push out on the outside line.

 

[BetterCallSaul]

The main reason we have this rule it prevent player getting killed in spawn.

Ok lets stop right there; players are already getting killed in spawn. Do you honestly think this anti-mortar rule is somehow helping the defending team on a 64 man server when they are being base raped? Nobody can escape anyway when you have 5 players creeping up the ledges into the uncap zone outside and another 10 all guarding just below the ledge. It's death from all angles, RU (or US if you are defending on that side) has no clear line of site on anything and are completely exposed when running up the hill. Meanwhile the enemy team only has their heads peeking above the snow shooting right across the ground. This is why baserape happens, because the defending team is at a distinct disadvantage. If your theories on solving baserape with mortar rules were true then we wouldnt be having this conversation. How have you solved anything when you know damn well that every match is locked down into total baserape on your server every single round?! What have you accomplished???

Being spawned and getting killed instantly from explosives is not pleasant experience.

This does not happen! The mortar is a terribly inaccurate weapon for moving targets. You cant fire a mortar and predict where someone is going to be and actually kill them (ok some of us can but thats beside the point, for all intents and purposes the weapon is not used this way). All you can do is just fire them repeatedly at random and hope for kills and splash damage if you are spraying. The point is this is very easy to avoid and commits the baseraping team to go anti-mortar with their own mortars. By forcing the enemy team to go anti-mortar there is now a hole in the choke points because they have less players to defend! Less players means your team can now push out more effectively! Thats how balance works! Because the admins have completely failed to consider the way in which the maps are designed they wrongfully assume that by removing mortar from both teams that they have solved the spawn killing issue and each have an equal ability to attack a given point. This is not true. Different weapons and tactics must be employed to attack/defend different areas of the map. Just because US can baserape with LMG does not mean LMG is the proper counter for RU.

Furthermore, mortar is one of those weapons which you can get kills without actually seeing the enemy. So in case when one team pushed, I can see many players just switching to mortars and bombing the spawn regardless if there were any mortars in spawn. Now to counter this would require use mortar yourself.

WRONG. The counter to random blind mortar spam is not to mortar spam yourself, it is to simply push! Mortars are not meant to stop pushes, they are meant to clear nests. If 10 people are mortar spamming spawn exits then thats 10 people who arent actively putting crosshairs on players and shooting them down. Ever see some guy just randomly standing in the middle of an open field with is PDA in hand? Ever just walk up to him and flare kill him? Thats what happens to mortar clowns, they get destroyed because they cant see whats happening around them. It's a temporary device used for certain conditions and randomly peppering an area is not one of them, doing this will FAIL.

As result, you end up seeing 6+ mortars in spawn, having our rule forces players push out of spawn and capture the flag.

Oh sure your rule forces players to push out, but guess what, nobody wants to die walking into a complete hailstorm of bullets so nobody pushes out. All your rule does is make everyone on the defending side get their bipods out and spray back down the hallway. Your rule is completely ineffective and is actually the cause of base rape because you have removed the ability for the defending side to clear a hornets nest of players.

Another thing, lockers is map where you will rarely get close game, players come for locker for kills and not for a balanced game.

Bullshit, Locker is one of the most satisfying maps to have close games on and it happens all the time on unrestricted servers. Your rules are what create a complete imbalance in the game. The inability to use high explosives from a defensive position to regain territory gives a tremendous advantage to the opposing team which is evidenced by the fact that all of your rounds end in a steamroll of the other side. Players will push out and capture points like you want them to if you give them the ability to. Telling them to just run out into gunfire on a suicide mission is not going to motivate people to cap points.

. If you want coordination I would suggest joining up in teamspeak. Most of the time there is group playing lockers.

I'll give this a try just for fun but I shouldnt have to execute a 3rd party tool too coordinate with your players. You are basically saying the game is broken and that we have to circumvent its shortcomings in order to effectively play which is not true. You broke the game and now we have to resort to teamspeak to make it work. And that is only for someone like me who took the time to come here and learn of this TS server. The other 100 players will not and just play in their random squad with no VoIP and get destroyed over and over.

 

[FunkyKiller84]

The bonus side of being the camped team is they can throw and fire all the explosives they want, where as the team doing the raping can not. Which I think is where the balance of not having a mortar in spawn stems from. Couple incendiaries, C4 or RPG's, and frags used wisely and correctly can gain some significant ground. Good squad working together will have the squad mates reviving/spawning on each other best as possible taking out as many as possible. Not counting a good Airburster, and the use of smoke and flash grenades in tandem with flares to blind IRNV/FLIR scopes. I'm by far NOT the best player in this game, I actually rather suck at this game, and even I can break out alone or within a squad. I've done it with just flashbang's and a ballistic shield....Blind them, protect against blind fire, blind them some more and get behind them and lay them down. But as stated, 98% of Locker's players are just there to pad their K/D ratio. So teamwork has far gone by the wayside. To me it's just a game, with plenty of respawn opportunities. I have no problem running into a hail of gunfire and trying to lay a few down with me....Every little bit counts.


The TS server is advertised on our Server's loading screens on the bottom right as well on our server's battlelog page, and if I'm not mistaken, it's even advertised throughout the round in the chat box. To be honest, TS works MUCH better than the squad chat IMO, and normally I have my in game VOIP turned off because I can't understand what they're saying or someone's just spamming crap. TS eliminates that.

 

[Scientisto]

The Thing Is, If What You Said Was True, If You Can Break It Up By Being Able To Use Mortars, No Team Would Ever Be Stuck On Just E or Just A In The Lockers.. You Can Use Mortars From Both And You Can Mortar The Hell Out Of The Enemy Snipers (According To Your Idea The Only Reason You Are Stuck In The Uncap Cuz They Are Spotting People And Again According To You Only Way To Get Rid Of Them Is To Use Mortar Weirdly)
So How Do The Teams Still Get Stuck In E or A And Not Being Able To Push Or Sneak Behind The Enemy Team?
I Understand That You Wanna Mortar From The Uncap But Non Of The Reasons You Say That Makes It Necessary Are True or Logical.. Having Mortars Wouldnt Make You Break Through Or Wouldnt Make It a Even Game At All.. As I Said If That Was The Case, All Teams Would Break Through When They Are Stuck In A or E Since They Can Use Mortars..

 

[Wizekraker]

This does not happen! The mortar is a terribly inaccurate weapon for moving targets. You cant fire a mortar and predict where someone is going to be and actually kill them (ok some of us can but thats beside the point, for all intents and purposes the weapon is not used this way).

Thats true, but there is always the casualties in crossfire.

WRONG. The counter to random blind mortar spam is not to mortar spam yourself, it is to simply push! Mortars are not meant to stop pushes, they are meant to clear nests. If 10 people are mortar spamming spawn exits then thats 10 people who arent actively putting crosshairs on players and shooting them down.

For the average player the easiest way to destroy motor is take out your own motor and shoot at the location. Why risk pushing to kill mortar when you are guaranteed to kill the mortar by using your own.

Your rules are what create a complete imbalance in the game. The inability to use high explosives from a defensive position to regain territory gives a tremendous advantage to the opposing team which is evidenced by the fact that all of your rounds end in a steamroll of the other side. Players will push out and capture points like you want them to if you give them the ability to. Telling them to just run out into gunfire on a suicide mission is not going to motivate people to cap points.

You not even trying understand,now you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. Never did I ever say "just run out into gunfire". If that how you play, then good on you...

close games on and it happens all the time on unrestricted servers.

I find that hard to believe since I been to other locker servers and its the same case, rarely have seen balanced games. Also, if that's the case why are not playing those servers which I find quite odd. Also, please do link me to them as I would love experience locker that is always balanced.

I'll give this a try just for fun but I shouldnt have to execute a 3rd party tool too coordinate with your players. You are basically saying the game is broken and that we have to circumvent its shortcomings in order to effectively play which is not true. You broke the game and now we have to resort to teamspeak to make it work. And that is only for someone like me who took the time to come here and learn of this TS server. The other 100 players will not and just play in their random squad with no VoIP and get destroyed over and over.

Again, arguing for the sake of your point and making assumptions. Never did I say the game is "broken". In fact your comment on " the game is broken and that we have to circumvent its shortcomings in order to effectively play". I would argue battlefield is designed communicating with other players and squads, thinking otherwise would be simply foolish. If it is to much of a burden to communicate with other player to accomplish a goal, far be it from me to stop your from playing the lonewolf role. Furthermore, your assumption that other player don't use voip is another one of your assumption you might want to double check. There are multiple clans that come join to play on this server and for a fact I know they use voip.

 

[DarkRaven]

Hello Bettercallsaul,

Our current rule on No Mortaring From Uncaps and No Using SUAV, UCAV From Uncaps will remain in place. The reason for this is we do not allow players to attack into uncaps keeping them pinned down inside an uncap. Second we do not allow players to shoot the same weapons out because there is no way of killing the players using them as the enemy cant reach the uncaps. As far as the map is concerned if a team is not doing team play and allowing enemies to cap behind them or push your team back you will in many cases get pushed all the way back. Many times teams just give up because they fail as a team to work to gain back ground. Players are allowed to use all weapons and vehicles outside of the redzones of the main bases or uncaps.

Here our eGO's rules for our servers
Do Not Enter Uncaps!
Do Not Fire Into or Towards Uncaps Unless Being Fired Upon
Do Not Fire Mortars/UCAVs/SUAVs Into or From Uncaps
No Hacking, No Cheating, and No Exploiting
Do Not Go Out of Bounds or Through Redzones to Advance Position
Do Not Drive, Fly, or Walk Into Uncaps
Do Not Fire Explosives Into or From Uncaps
Do Not Fire Vehicles Into or From Uncaps
Exploiting Redzones and Glitches is Prohibited
Do Not Be Disrespectful Towards Players or Admins
Server Disruption is Not Tolerated
Racism and Bullying Is Not Tolerated in the Server
Admins Have Final Say on Rules

 

[BetterCallSaul]

So tell me something, what have your rules accomplished? Do you feel you have solved the problem with spawn camping by implementing this rule? How effective has this rule been in keeping the gameflow moving?

And if your goal is to equally equip both sides with firepower selection then you need to introduce some kind of map morphing technology to make the spawn points equally accessible and exitable. If you havent noticed the maps arent linear flat planes with 2 opposing doorways facing each other. You really fail to understand the design of the map if you think that placing the same weapons restrictions on both sides is actually balancing anything. US is supposed to be at a disadvantage when capping E. By removing mortar and trying to "make it fair" all you have really done is given the advantage back to them.

 

[Wizekraker]

So tell me something, what have your rules accomplished? Do you feel you have solved the problem with spawn camping by implementing this rule? How effective has this rule been in keeping the gameflow moving?

And if your goal is to equally equip both sides with firepower selection then you need to introduce some kind of map morphing technology to make the spawn points equally accessible and exitable. If you havent noticed the maps arent linear flat planes with 2 opposing doorways facing each other. You really fail to understand the design of the map if you think that placing the same weapons restrictions on both sides is actually balancing anything. US is supposed to be at a disadvantage when capping E. By removing mortar and trying to "make it fair" all you have really done is given the advantage back to them.

Our rules are there to reduce number of players getting killed in the uncap,so they can push out of uncap.if you rely on mortars to push out of uncap, I would suggest you finding another server. I don't see any point continuing this discussion.