Doing away with SOPs

[Summer]

So it was brought up by a couple of members and Legend that we should do away with gang SOPs and let members do as they wish. We can admin the bad apples. What is your thoughts? Yes or no?

 

[RedDragonKnight]

I think getting rid of sops will cause us to lose a lot of oversight and increase the amount of garbage where people just roll around in large groups doing whatever they want. The police presence required to put an end to it generally requires all/most calls to be ignored for an extended period while they are pursued, apprehended, and booked. I doubt these large, illegal groups consistently contribute positive roleplay to those they encounter in the server

 

[Jolly]

It would certainly make doing things a lot easier (creating a good SOP takes time). I think it would work out, and like you said, worst comes to worse the bad apples can be dealt with in our normal manner and everybody else might benefit.

EDIT: The only reason I think this is because right now there just isn't a lot of fun things for civilians to do, and this would give them that. If it backfires it can always be reverted.

 

[Muffs]

I think if this allowed, there simply just needs to be a cap of the people you can run with in a gang at a time. I believe a reasonable number would be 4-5, and in no more than two cars.

 

[H0LLYW00D]

I personally think that if you take away the need for Standard Operating Procedures in order to establish a “gang/criminal organization” the server will be taking steps backwards instead of forwards. Granted I have no been part of leadership for GTA in a while so I’m not sure what the general direction of the server is any longer however from what I recall it was for people to establish characters and serious role play. If you begin to allow just any random joe to start a gang on the server it will create chaos and as stated already above” creating good sops take time” which to me means that people don’t want to take the time to create a backstory as to how the gang or crew was established, what they are about (money, drugs, trafficking etc) how they operate and why they are in los santos to create that storyline and build the serious role play. Again, just my two pennies. The server is either serious or is not serious in my opinion there’s not really a middle ground.

 

[Muffs]

I personally think that if you take away the need for Standard Operating Procedures in order to establish a “gang/criminal organization” the server will be taking steps backwards instead of forwards. Granted I have no been part of leadership for GTA in a while so I’m not sure what the general direction of the server is any longer however from what I recall it was for people to establish characters and serious role play. If you begin to allow just any random joe to start a gang on the server it will create chaos and as stated already above” creating good sops take time” which to me means that people don’t want to take the time to create a backstory as to how the gang or crew was established, what they are about (money, drugs, trafficking etc) how they operate and why they are in los santos to create that storyline and build the serious role play. Again, just my two pennies. The server is either serious or is not serious in my opinion there’s not really a middle ground.

You don't need some document to make a story line, plus it's not whitelisted. If you wanted people to actually have to RP for guns and drugs you would let established gangs have access to certain weapons only to sell. As well as allowing them to control certain drugs. So that way if you were some bozo that just joined the server and thought you were going to kidnap some gang member, well now you're on a list and won't be getting that AP pistol you wanted.

 

[Dubbs]

Piggy backing off what hollywood said, Giving people unlimited access without having to put a set guild lined request in WILL lead to chaos. Hear me out. Giving people unlimited access will cause not only a RP decrease due to EVERYONE being able to pump out guns of their choosing. Keeping the SOP rule allows for people who are SERIOUS about having a certain thing of their own I.E. gang. If they really want it they will put in the hard work, time and effort to give it some actual meat, and meaningness to the server.

So with this being said keeping the SOP rule should ultimately be the deciding factor to allowing people to start gangs, new jobs, ETC..

 

[Jolly]

I think there’s some confusion. I have absolutely no problem with people making gangs and running around as such. We hold them to the same standards we do everyone, and if they want to expand and actually get a job and all that they can then make an SOP. We have to stop stifling potential RP.

 

[RedDragonKnight]

I think there’s some confusion. I have absolutely no problem with people making gangs and running around as such. We hold them to the same standards we do everyone, and if they want to expand and actually get a job and all that they can then make an SOP. We have to stop stifling potential RP.

I feel the opposite. Someone creating a generic business that requires no leadership support shouldn't have to create a sop. Potentisl businesses shouldn't be stifled, but gang violence should be. Allowing anyone to get in a large group (commonly matching or exceeding police presence) and go do whatever they want with no repercussions should be stifled. The roleplay involved in rolling up to someone, putting 6 guns on them, and stealing all of their stuff is bare bones at best. In real life, there would be more than a handful of cops to protect the entire city and county and that alone would stifle gang violence to be a non occurrence more than once or twice a day.

The counter argument is similar to publishers trying to avoid government involvement in loot box schemes. They argue that they don't need involvement because they can police themselves, but the fact of the matter is they refuse to do so. Gangs rolling around in groups committing string crimes because they have as many people as the entire police force is unrealistic. An unrealistic problem requires an unrealistic solution. The gangs refuse to police themselves even when we have these rules in place; removing the rule on the promise they will police themselves isn't the basis for things getting better.

 

[Jolly]

I feel the opposite. Someone creating a generic business that requires no leadership support shouldn't have to create a sop. Potentisl businesses shouldn't be stifled, but gang violence should be. Allowing anyone to get in a large group (commonly matching or exceeding police presence) and go do whatever they want with no repercussions should be stifled. The roleplay involved in rolling up to someone, putting 6 guns on them, and stealing all of their stuff is bare bones at best. In real life, there would be more than a handful of cops to protect the entire city and county and that alone would stifle gang violence to be a non occurrence more than once or twice a day.

The counter argument is similar to publishers trying to avoid government involvement in loot box schemes. They argue that they don't need involvement because they can police themselves, but the fact of the matter is they refuse to do so. Gangs rolling around in groups committing string crimes because they have as many people as the entire police force is unrealistic. An unrealistic problem requires an unrealistic solution. The gangs refuse to police themselves even when we have these rules in place; removing the rule on the promise they will police themselves isn't the basis for things getting better.

I never mentioned them policing themselves, I said the admins/leadership can watch them. Leadership can just just set a max limit on gangs, and talk to people when they're doing something low effort.

Just because there's been bad apples or there's the possibility of someone being a dickhead doesn't mean we shut it down/gate it off for everybody. The SOP requirements for a lot of stuff in our city is ridiculous and needs to be limited.

 

[RedDragonKnight]

I never mentioned them policing themselves, I said the admins/leadership can watch them. Leadership can just just set a max limit on gangs, and talk to people when they're doing something low effort.

There is a non zero amount of admins that do this.

Just because there's been bad apples or there's the possibility of someone being a dickhead doesn't mean we shut it down/gate it off for everybody. The SOP requirements for a lot of stuff in our city is ridiculous and needs to be limited.

If they don't want to spend the rather short amount of time required to put some effort into their gangs backstory and operation, then how can they be expected to put any effort into their roleplay. To call a SOP requirement ridiculous is an overstatement, considering most people can come up with a generic one in a few minutes. They usually end up denied, because "I go around killing people who don't give me their stuff" is not thoughtful roleplay that needs to be encouraged. That's 99% of what I personally look for in a SOP: what are you going to be spending your time doing. Quite simply, if you put no effort into that portion of the sop, then you're going to put no effort into actually roleplaying.

 

[Jolly]

There is a non zero amount of admins that do this.



If they don't want to spend the rather short amount of time required to put some effort into their gangs backstory and operation, then how can they be expected to put any effort into their roleplay. To call a SOP requirement ridiculous is an overstatement, considering most people can come up with a generic one in a few minutes. They usually end up denied, because "I go around killing people who don't give me their stuff" is not thoughtful roleplay that needs to be encouraged. That's 99% of what I personally look for in a SOP: what are you going to be spending your time doing. Quite simply, if you put no effort into that portion of the sop, then you're going to put no effort into actually roleplaying.

Why would people wanna play a game and have fun with their friends when they can spend a few days sweating over an SOP they’re hoping is good enough. Which they can do if they wanna legitimate their gang and go further with RP, but when they initially join and we tell them to go fill out paperwork why would they bother staying on our server.

 

[RedDragonKnight]

Why would people wanna play a game and have fun with their friends when they can spend a few days sweating over an SOP they’re hoping is good enough.

You're greatly over exaggerating the effort required to make a sop. If they want to do legal jobs, that's fine. But its unrealistic for someone who first steps foot inside a city to immediately be indoctrinated inside a gang and seconds later they are out committing crime all day long. There's no character building to it.

 

[Jolly]

You're greatly over exaggerating the effort required to make a sop. If they want to do legal jobs, that's fine. But its unrealistic for someone who first steps foot inside a city to immediately be indoctrinated inside a gang and seconds later they are out committing crime all day long. There's no character building to it.

I'm really not. To make a good SOP takes a fair amount of time, someone who just joins the server won't be willing to do. I feel like we're not giving new players enough fun things to get them engaged into the server when they start, and this is one issue that contributes to that problem.

 

[RedDragonKnight]

I'm really not. To make a good SOP takes a fair amount of time, someone who just joins the server won't be willing to do. I feel like we're not giving new players enough fun things to get them engaged into the server when they start, and this is one issue that contributes to that problem.

To make an excellent SOP takes a fair amount of time. To make a good SOP takes a few hours, if that. Your SOP states basic stuff that, unless you just mindlessly drive around committing crimes, you should be able to put into word form in no time flat. Things like who you are, what you do, where you do it, and who is in charge of whom.

We can argue about this all day, but it boils down to realistic, hardcore roleplay. Becoming a hardcore criminal thug 30 seconds after entering a city is completely unrealistic. There needs to be backstory and character building, not oh my character is brand new but he's a drug overlord and kills cops all day even though he still doesn't even know where the weapons shop is or how to put his hands up.

If the only thing fun to do is go around ruining other peoples day, then maybe that needs to be looked at. But opening the floodgates to allow anyone to do that isn't forward thinking. The ones not participating in that are either going to feel griefed to the point of leaving, or are going to join in themselves; and the cops aren't going to look forward to responding to only high priority crime calls and getting shot because half the server is running around in their own little gang shooting people all over town.

 

[Jolly]

To make an excellent SOP takes a fair amount of time. To make a good SOP takes a few hours, if that. Your SOP states basic stuff that, unless you just mindlessly drive around committing crimes, you should be able to put into word form in no time flat. Things like who you are, what you do, where you do it, and who is in charge of whom.

We can argue about this all day, but it boils down to realistic, hardcore roleplay. Becoming a hardcore criminal thug 30 seconds after entering a city is completely unrealistic. There needs to be backstory and character building, not oh my character is brand new but he's a drug overlord and kills cops all day even though he still doesn't even know where the weapons shop is or how to put his hands up.

If the only thing fun to do is go around ruining other peoples day, then maybe that needs to be looked at. But opening the floodgates to allow anyone to do that isn't forward thinking. The ones not participating in that are either going to feel griefed to the point of leaving, or are going to join in themselves; and the cops aren't going to look forward to responding to only high priority crime calls and getting shot because half the server is running around in their own little gang shooting people all over town.

I agree. We need groups to establish themselves and have some control over the violence in the city, and in a sense let them police other people that may be causing issues.

I have friends tell me all the time on other servers that once you're in with a gang, violence goes down immensely. It takes weeks to get in, or even longer. He once told me he was running drugs, when two people pulled a gun on him. He informed them that they were in another gangs territory, and they immediately fled. Later he received a picture of the two guys on a boat dock handcuffed. This is the level of RP we need.

 

[Confission]

It took two day for the Garages and Apartments poll to be complete it has almost been two weeks and nothing has been changed!
Summer Bigtram

 

[Summer]

It took two day for the Garages and Apartments poll to be complete it has almost been two weeks and nothing has been changed!

Summer Bigtram

Cool. Glad that update was faster than some. We are still discussing this.