Remove Voteban and Votekick from DS

[kuantum]

Very controversial idea.

I've been seeing a lot more usage of DS admin powers in JB and TTT (mainly TTT) even when an admin is on. This is a continuation from here. (You should comment on it, if you would like!).

DS shouldn't have the ability to votekick and voteban, especially when A) an admin is on (why that's not disabled is beyond me) and B) any e tag can buy it and get access to it. I understand DS purchasers (me included) paid to have this feature, but they shouldn't be able to admin a server anyway. Members who have DS aren't forced to go through training and some of them don't even know the rules or let alone, THE REASON WHY THEY ARE KICKING/BANNING A PLAYER. It's astounding that some JUNIOR admins (actually trained and know the rules) have to let DS voteban a player, then fill out a ban request on the player later.

Now, I know that eGO has had some money issues lately, there's no hiding that. This would negatively affect DS memberships just based off of reasoning alone. However, there should be more emphasis on other purely cosmetic views such as trails, character model changes, hats, etc. to help drive the perks back up.

Thanks for attending my TED Talk, Kappa

 

[Drewerth]

I will acknowledge that the next versioned release of Maul for SourceMod will require dedicated supporters to add a reason to their votes, and bans will be properly trackable to the donator that called for the vote.

 

[Matrix]

I'm fully aware of how to get admins on the server. Admins are not always on, nor do they always respond. Its a matter of simple convenience to just vote ban a player and make a ban request to have it upped as well.

But thats literally the argument people use to not give eGs power of tempbanning players... Just get an eGO on

 

[Spock]

But thats literally the argument people use to not give eGs power of tempbanning players... Just get an eGO on

Matrix that?s the point usually when ever there is a rule breaker and you can?t get an eGO on ASAP and you have access to voteban as a DS and an e you can do a 30 min ban on the said rulebreakers And begin the ban reports so that it wouldn?t take more time off


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[Matrix]

Matrix that?s the point usually when ever there is a rule breaker and you can?t get an eGO on ASAP and you have access to voteban as a DS and an e you can do a 30 min ban on the said rulebreakers And begin the ban reports so that it wouldn?t take more time off


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kuantum 's whole argument is that

Unlike admins DS's aren't trained hell some have been banned numerous times, some aren't even in the community as e's

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[redchance]

Specifically I believe DS powers gives players a chance to showcase their responsibility in handling difficult situations and players. Although DS definitely doesn't lead you into being promoted, it gives you a tool to showcase your responsibility, and maturity all while supporting the very community that wants you to be mature and responsible.

 

[Simon]

Unlike admins DS's aren't trained hell some have been banned numerous times, some aren't even in the community as e's

Votekick and voteban are only available to e members who have a DS subscription.

 

[Matrix]

Doesn't change the fact they could've been banned nor are they trained for a power like that

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[Spock]

Doesn't change the fact they could've been banned nor are they trained for a power like that

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Also I feel like your dissing me cause I got banned sometimes and I didn?t need to training cause I followed the guidelines for the commands and what to do for each rule breaker...........I legit still probably have the most made votebans and votekicks in ego since I used it on any of the rulebreakers when there isn?t an eG or eGO


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[Matrix]

Also I feel like your dissing me cause I got banned sometimes and I didn?t need to training cause I followed the guidelines for the commands and what to do for each rule breaker...........I legit still probably have the most made votebans and votekicks in ego since I used it on any of the rulebreakers when there isn?t an eG or eGO


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I actually wasn't thinking of you with bans but rather another person as an example

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[kuantum]

Okay, so here's where I come in and reiterate my point about this suggestion.

DS Members with e tags have the ability to moderate a server without any training, any guidance, or any loggable action.

With Maul3 soon:tm:, this takes a step in the right direction with bringing real accountability to DS members. Sure, someone could throw a CL into the mix and get their powers revoked, but I'm willing to bet that it's not frequent and it doesn't give any real threat if someone is not apart of the forums. In the future, we can now track their ban uses and I'm ecstatic for it.

I understand completely about admins not being on the server. I get that wholeheartedly. However, the arguments I see here miss my point entirely. We have e tag DS members who definitely shouldn't be an admin and they get access to votekick and voteban for $5/month. And then we have eG's who CAN'T EVEN VOTEBAN. You cannot support DS having votekick/voteban and they say interns shouldn't even get banning privileges. That's a horrible argument and really hurts the people who get noticed and chosen BY LE to have the privilege to be an admin.

And for the record, it's easy to get an e tag. It's not some journey up a mountain to get it. And then they get their tag, buy DS, read that post that just says, "hey just don't abuse", while being very vague about what admin abuse (let's not fool ourselves and say they aren't admins, they have more power than an intern. voting doesn't make a difference because 99% of the time the vote passes) entails. They go through exactly zero training and they possibly don't even read the rules.

I know I might sound overdramatic but this is the reality. Kick/Ban power for $5/month and a couple of hours of waiting for your application to go through.

 

[Kagato]

I don't agree. There are not enough admins to moderate servers 24/7. This is especially true in the late night/early morning hours. DS players are given the ability to help moderate the community when admins are not present which has benefits that far outweigh the negatives.

It also allows eG members with DS to provide the server respite from spin bots and people spamming racist content over their mics. I also believe eGs should be able to ban for 30 minutes. eGs should already be in the habit of submitting ban requests to support the w/k/b procedure and any votebans they issue. It's important to note, as redchance said, that this gives eG members practice following the w/k/b procedure. Otherwise, all eGs practice is w/k.

I am happy to hear that we will be able to add reasons to our votekicks and votebans. This is often a point of contention because people often do not know why a particular user is being votekicked/banned.

That said, I might agree with this suggestion if our servers were not being repeatedly targeted by a group of griefers. They log on at the same time each night on low level accounts and usually spin bot while spamming racist content over their mics. The only way to really deal with them is voteban them until an eGO or manager logs in to handle them.

If the concern is over DS members abusing their powers due to lack of training, then the solution is to provide training or reading material.

 

[Matrix]

I don't agree. There are not enough admins to moderate servers 24/7. This is especially true in the late night/early morning hours. DS players are given the ability to help moderate the community when admins are not present which has benefits that far outweigh the negatives.

It also allows eG members with DS to provide the server respite from spin bots and people spamming racist content over their mics. I also believe eGs should be able to ban for 30 minutes. eGs should already be in the habit of submitting ban requests to support the w/k/b procedure and any votebans they issue. It's important to note, as redchance said, that this gives eG members practice following the w/k/b procedure. Otherwise, all eGs practice is w/k.

I am happy to hear that we will be able to add reasons to our votekicks and votebans. This is often a point of contention because people often do not know why a particular user is being votekicked/banned.

That said, I might agree with this suggestion if our servers were not being repeatedly targeted by a group of griefers. They log on at the same time each night on low level accounts and usually spin bot while spamming racist content over their mics. The only way to really deal with them is voteban them until an eGO or manager logs in to handle them.

If the concern is over DS members abusing their powers due to lack of training, then the solution is to provide training or reading material.

Even a reading material would be fine. I was votebanned pre eG for micspam which
A. wasn't warned nor kicked
B. Anyone on JB, TTT, MG knows I don't have a mic...

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[4g0tt3nSou1]

I'm gonna disagree with this 1000%.

The argument that DS's shouldn't be using this with admins on has been addressed time and time again.

It shouldn't be discussed further seeing how we CAN'T anymore. DS's cannot VK/B if an admin online and in a team besides Spectators. In fact, I've recently seen some detriment to the servers BECAUSE DS's can't do anything because some eG hops on and isn't paying attention or actively admining. As such, we end up pinging MAUL for some other admin to come on and assist because the server is in chaos. In any case; DS's no longer are able to do that stuff when an eG+ is on.

Another point to be made is that the perks for DS are fair, but very sparse. Removing two key features of DS's would IMHO devalue DS severely and significantly, as all that would be left would be chat color theming, which if put as the only perks would IMHO make it not worth 5$ a month. (Granted, DS's primary purpose should just be giving back, with little incentive other than that, but all the same I think that some perks should be included)
Further in my honest opinion, we should be talking about giving more perks with DS to increase DS's and overall image; The perks have been the same for awhile; we need some spice to continue gathering new DS's, and further excite users who already are DS's.

Lastly, DS's VK/B powers are a PRIVILEGE! If we f*** up once with them we are subject to having them removed, say if I voteban somebody with no basis or reason, I could and would expect to end up in a channel with a few managers with the likely outcome of those powers being taken away, and maybe even action being taken against me. This isn't something I can just flail around and get away with, DS's are expected uphold the standards that go with the powers granted. We may not be admins, but in a pinch we are an asset. I haven't heard of any cases in a LONG time about a DS using their powers for evil. (But that is by design as we are not supposed to hear about diciplinary actions against other members of the community anyhow.)

TL;DR: This is a (sorry) terrible idea, I hope this never happens. PLEASE never do this.

 

[Spock]

I'm gonna disagree with this 1000%.

The argument that DS's shouldn't be using this with admins on has been addressed time and time again.

It shouldn't be discussed further seeing how we CAN'T anymore. DS's cannot VK/B if an admin online and in a team besides Spectators. In fact, I've recently seen some detriment to the servers BECAUSE DS's can't do anything because some eG hops on and isn't paying attention or actively admining. As such, we end up pinging MAUL for some other admin to come on and assist because the server is in chaos. In any case; DS's no longer are able to do that stuff when an eG+ is on.

Another point to be made is that the perks for DS are fair, but very sparse. Removing two key features of DS's would IMHO devalue DS severely and significantly, as all that would be left would be chat color theming, which if put as the only perks would IMHO make it not worth 5$ a month. (Granted, DS's primary purpose should just be giving back, with little incentive other than that, but all the same I think that some perks should be included)
Further in my honest opinion, we should be talking about giving more perks with DS to increase DS's and overall image; The perks have been the same for awhile; we need some spice to continue gathering new DS's, and further excite users who already are DS's.

Lastly, DS's VK/B powers are a PRIVILEGE! If we f*** up once with them we are subject to having them removed, say if I voteban somebody with no basis or reason, I could and would expect to end up in a channel with a few managers with the likely outcome of those powers being taken away, and maybe even action being taken against me. This isn't something I can just flail around and get away with, DS's are expected uphold the standards that go with the powers granted. We may not be admins, but in a pinch we are an asset. I haven't heard of any cases in a LONG time about a DS using their powers for evil. (But that is by design as we are not supposed to hear about diciplinary actions against other members of the community anyhow.)

TL;DR: This is a (sorry) terrible idea, I hope this never happens. PLEASE never do this.

Wooow holy shit this had to take you 10 mins to type it, and this is good to prove what the powers of votekick and vote ban are only privileges and that there are guidelines to show what a DS can do with rulebreakers.


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[kuantum]

I'm gonna disagree with this 1000%.

The argument that DS's shouldn't be using this with admins on has been addressed time and time again.

It shouldn't be discussed further seeing how we CAN'T anymore. DS's cannot VK/B if an admin online and in a team besides Spectators. In fact, I've recently seen some detriment to the servers BECAUSE DS's can't do anything because some eG hops on and isn't paying attention or actively admining. As such, we end up pinging MAUL for some other admin to come on and assist because the server is in chaos. In any case; DS's no longer are able to do that stuff when an eG+ is on.

Another point to be made is that the perks for DS are fair, but very sparse. Removing two key features of DS's would IMHO devalue DS severely and significantly, as all that would be left would be chat color theming, which if put as the only perks would IMHO make it not worth 5$ a month. (Granted, DS's primary purpose should just be giving back, with little incentive other than that, but all the same I think that some perks should be included)
Further in my honest opinion, we should be talking about giving more perks with DS to increase DS's and overall image; The perks have been the same for awhile; we need some spice to continue gathering new DS's, and further excite users who already are DS's.

Lastly, DS's VK/B powers are a PRIVILEGE! If we f*** up once with them we are subject to having them removed, say if I voteban somebody with no basis or reason, I could and would expect to end up in a channel with a few managers with the likely outcome of those powers being taken away, and maybe even action being taken against me. This isn't something I can just flail around and get away with, DS's are expected uphold the standards that go with the powers granted. We may not be admins, but in a pinch we are an asset. I haven't heard of any cases in a LONG time about a DS using their powers for evil. (But that is by design as we are not supposed to hear about diciplinary actions against other members of the community anyhow.)

TL;DR: This is a (sorry) terrible idea, I hope this never happens. PLEASE never do this.

1. DS able to admin with other admins on is fixed. You are right. However, that's not my main point here.
2. I don't think we should be promoting [BUDGET ADMIN] abilities. My powers are a privilege too, however I just don't believe that people with an e tag should be able to kick and ban others for $5/month. Especially when they get no reading material or training to use them wisely. You know as well as I anyone can buy it, and use those commands without any rule-reading.

 

[Drewerth]

It's sorted.

This is staying for now.