Offical Discussion about Turbine

[PurpleNurple]

My experience on it last night was opposite that of 2Fort. In 2Fort instant respawn, it’s very difficult to get to the intel with them respawning immediately. In Turbine last night, they were in and out of our intel too easily. If the team is defending in the open intel door and they die, a scout can be in there to intel and out that open door before you are even out of spawn because it is more difficult for engies to build a level 3. At first I did not like it. Games were over before you knew what happened.

After playing it for a while, I realized it just takes a lot more teamwork. A couple of us had to play honest to goodness defense to give engies time to build. More teamwork is never a bad thing in my opinion. It did take time to get used to though. At one point we did have the blue team controlling the middle. They worked together and took control.

I like it either way, but instant respawn does take some getting used to. I quit at first after about 10 minutes out of frustration, but came back because I still love that little turbine. It started to become fun defending an area for the engies, etc.

 

[3.14159265359]

I haven't played the insta-spawn turbine but I didn't really like turbine to begin with. Not a big enough map for me. I like having more than 1 way to get into a room that doesn't come out of the same wall. Enough about the map though.

I never liked insta-spawns. Took the penalty of dying away which to me isn't fun. When I die I like to think why I died and figure out how to not die anymore. With the insta-spawn there is no penalty so no reason for me to change tactics.

The more time I am actually in the game the more fun I have. That logic would tell me insta-spawn would be the thing for me but it isn't. I want a penalty for dying so I can be a better player.

The less I die the happier I am. It's not kills that matter to me. It's how many times I die. To prevent the dying I kill others. With insta-spawn their dying doesn't mean anything. They are back in 5 seconds to kill me which makes me a sad boy.

I want to say how wonderful it is to have a place where people can share their opinions about a change without it being locked. Granted this conversation doesn't mean it will be changed but at least the opinions are heard. Big props to GGVW for the opportunity.

 

[bigwilly]

Last night quite a few players expressed their displeasure, and a couple said they would find another turbine server. From what I've seen, instaspawn servers attract less experienced players, and those with not much time to play. This leads to less team-oriented action, and a team is less likely to achieve 3 caps in the time limit. It also changes the game as the middle becomes very difficult to control as engies can't set up, which also makes it very hard to cap. My preference is regular respawn, but either way is OK.

 

[Groo]

Well, as I've said in a previous thread, it messes with class and game dynamics with instant respawn.

Soldiers (like myself) become spam happy and suicidal. Same goes to Demomen (the suicidal part).

Snipers become nearly worthless against a rush. One kill, another replaces him and the wave is now closer.

Spies gain power since people aren't going to be as worried about backstabs since there's no real penalty for death.

Engineers become less valuable since spamming enemies make it difficult to have a proper defense set up.

Scouts become more frequent since the spawn timer is not there to limit them (the rate at which they die and the rate at which they can get right back into things become much, much closer).

Turbine doesn't seem very suited to instant spawning. I don't know quite how to explain it, but the map just feels different when I pop right back two seconds later.

Instant spawning in general removes one aspect from the game: the ability to learn by watching others. Yeah, it doesn't sound like much, but I've learned a number of useful tactics while I was not even playing, but rather watching my teammates as a spectator for a few seconds.

I'm sure a number of people will disagree with me, but Instant Respawn on the Turbine server today has decreased the player count (averaging around 18-24 players of a max of 32) and it has been seen and said to be rather unpopular. Take, for example, the 8-12 people I saw earlier whose names reflected their position on the matter.

I'm sure what I've said will have no impact on the outcome of the issue, but I've said it and I'm glad I'm able to voice my opinion this time without worrying about a locked thread.

Here here... Well said and I am in complete agreement.

Thanks to GGVW for allowing us a place to put our opinions.

-Groo

 

[GardenGroveVW]

Last night quite a few players expressed their displeasure, and a couple said they would find another turbine server. From what I've seen, instaspawn servers attract less experienced players, and those with not much time to play. This leads to less team-oriented action, and a team is less likely to achieve 3 caps in the time limit. It also changes the game as the middle becomes very difficult to control as engies can't set up, which also makes it very hard to cap. My preference is regular respawn, but either way is OK.

I was playing last night when it 32/32 for an hour with no one complaining about leaving :/

We had to jerks come in and think they were funny and change their name, but thats about it.

 

[.[BORN]2kill]

I was playing last night when it 32/32 for an hour with no one complaining about leaving :/

We had to jerks come in and think they were funny and change their name, but thats about it.

Garden, you seem to like the idea of having an instant respawn Turbine. You have not given your reasoning as to why. Can you explain your view please?

--born

 

[shaly]

Personally I find instant spawn servers to devolve into a basic death match. I don't play TF2 for deathmatches. What I like about regular turbine is the teamwork and feeling that each death/kill has an impact on your team gaining the intel. In the insta spawn servers I feel like i don't accomplish anything team wise when i play.

 

[Stauf1186]

Garden, you seem to like the idea of having an instant respawn Turbine. You have not given your reasoning as to why. Can you explain your view please?

--born

Agreed. The first Turbine thread that got locked out was mine simply saying I was curious about the change. Completely neutral post, but was locked out nonetheless.

 

[The Big Herm]

Im straight up the middle about this one:

Pros: Keeps people interested and more involved in gameplay rather than "talking smack" to each other. Requires teamwork to gain a foothold on the middle, which seems to be key in that map, as well as entering the intel room and acquiring the flag.

Cons: Turns the map into a deathmatch where teams are overbalanced with engineers turtling their base because the points are awesome on HLstatsX.

 

[mammy2shoes]

I experienced insta-spawn last night on Turbine. In being on the side of a number of losing efforts last night, the insta-spawn only made things worse IMO. Because people were rushing to the middle, there was no one to support those of us who were trying to use Turbine fundamentals (smart engies, charged medics) to take the match. As a result, a losing effort felt even more hopeless.

I've been on the opposite sides of many so-called steam rolls in Turbine, and never during those losses have I thought, "Man, if only we had insta-spawn we could fight back." Usually it's thoughts like "Do we have medics," "We need demos," "Why won't the engies move to the middle," etc.

Why not keep the Turbine server reg. spawn and change the 2Fort insta-spawn server so that it's a rotating 2Fort/Turbine insta-spawn? Then people can go to that insta-spawn server if they feel like not contributing to team play via repeatedly dying on the bridge or the railcar clearing.

 

[Shutter]

.[BORN]2kill, I think this is what you were looking for:

And this is exactly why we wanted to try instant respawn. It doesn't have that steam roll affect anymore. Which is very nice and the less complaining we have the better. We've fixed dustbowl putting a 90 min rotation on it. Stays full ALL night long now, i wish i would of known that sooner.

Which I've got to admit is a valid point, as keeping the servers well populated if not full has got to be one of the main objectives, and nothing empties out a server than one team getting bottled up in spawn by the other.

 

[mammy2shoes]

Which I've got to admit is a valid point, as keeping the servers well populated if not full has got to be one of the main objectives, and nothing empties out a server than one team getting bottled up in spawn by the other.

Why not just lower the rotation even more on Turbine? Make the match times shorter, too. Basing the success of instaspawn on one night is a little too anecdotal.

My guess for the long-term success of instaspawn is that, yeah, insta-spawn makes the server in demand and you get the desired 32/32, but your churn rate is still relatively high. Now instead of churning the people who get frustrated being steam rolled by organized teams, you're churning out quality players who are frustrated at the lack of team-based play (players who'd otherwise stick around on the server, win or lose, if they could get a decent competitive team match).

I'm not saying steam rolls are great, but as someone who likes competitive play, I rarely bail because I'm getting steam rolled. In fact my longer sessions are usually due to the fact that I'm getting steam rolled and I AM NOT LEAVING THIS COMPUTER UNTIL WE GET ONE CAP. I've played on ego servers with guys who clearly had similar attitudes. Instituting instaspawn risks losing these kinds of players.

Not saying it's an either or situation, but instaspawn isn't the only way. Again, maybe think about making the current 2fort instaspawn server rotate maps between 2fort and Turbine and leaving the Turbine server as it was.

 

[Air13ourn]

I am personally in love with Turbine. Map seems completely even, and it can either be a fast game or a slower paced one.

Teams really reflect in this map though, bad teams lose fast and communicating ones win easier.

My one gripe is that if you lose the middle, it can take a while to get it back. Either that, or it's a stalemate until an uber demoman comes and destroys your sentry without a problem !bang

Very hard to get the middle back in some cases, very easy to push if you have the mid. Could be seen from two different views. I, on one hand, think it's great.

 

[Tattis]

Don't knock it until you play it for more then 10 mins. You wont get the full effect if you only play it for 2 mins.

Agreed. I'm not a huge fan of IR 2Fort, and so I figured I'd have the same opinion of IR Turbine. Playing on it for a couple hours, I wasn't having too bad of a time. I couldn't tell you whether or not I like it better or worse than before, but I don't hate it. At least we still have the map.

My experience on it last night was opposite that of 2Fort. In 2Fort instant respawn, it?s very difficult to get to the intel with them respawning immediately. In Turbine last night, they were in and out of our intel too easily. If the team is defending in the open intel door and they die, a scout can be in there to intel and out that open door before you are even out of spawn because it is more difficult for engies to build a level 3. At first I did not like it. Games were over before you knew what happened.

After playing it for a while, I realized it just takes a lot more teamwork. A couple of us had to play honest to goodness defense to give engies time to build. More teamwork is never a bad thing in my opinion. It did take time to get used to though. At one point we did have the blue team controlling the middle. They worked together and took control.

I like it either way, but instant respawn does take some getting used to. I quit at first after about 10 minutes out of frustration, but came back because I still love that little turbine. It started to become fun defending an area for the engies, etc.

Yeah, this is something I was going to come and post. One thing about IR is that it takes some new strategy. You can't just run out of respawn when a round starts and count on the engineers to have the intel room defended. I was an engineer yesterday, and even with another engineer, we had trouble setting up sentries by ourselves. It used to be that you'd take out the initial scout rush and be able to get upgraded to level 3 before they returned. On IR, they just kept coming.

That's one reason I think people need to give this more of a chance. IR requires thinking about things differently, and you aren't necessarily going to figure out how to deal with everything within a couple hours.

Garden, you seem to like the idea of having an instant respawn Turbine. You have not given your reasoning as to why. Can you explain your view please?

--born

I don't want to speak for GGVW, but I know one of the reasons that was mentioned in the Vent meeting last night was that IR 2Fort is insanely popular and they were hoping it'd help make Turbine more popular as well (which is pretty much what I guessed).

 

[GardenGroveVW]

Well, if I dedicated half my free time to ruffles and joined a chip clan then I would prolly be pretty upset about it! lol

On a more serious note i have gone to customer service before when a usual food has disappeared. Call me strange.

--born

Are you just out to get me or are you not reading my replies?
You don't see me calling out anyone else in this thread, i'm not telling you to like it, you don't have to like it.


This is exactly why i personally dislike threads like these. You say your peace and leave it at that. Don't worry about if i like it or not. . . at this point it doesn't matter what i like or dislike.

I have already clearly stated that we want the servers full. If they are not full its time to try something else. If you don't like the change and 50 other people do, i'm sorry but those 50 people are going to out weigh you. This is a dictatorship.

I don't believe you were there last night when 10 of us were discussing why we changed it.

So I'll go over it again.

Steel for instance. . . That server is dead until about 11am PDT. . . Don't you think thats a waste of money? Hell we could get rid of that server and change turbine back to normal and have an instant respawn so everyone is happy.

But now if we did that. . . the people that play STEEL are going to do the same thing you are doing right now. Just like it happened with convoy/dbheights/blackmesa/gravelpit/hydro/ect ect.

All in all, not everyone is going to be satisfied.

So in the end. Post how you feel about turbine, IE if you like it or dislike it, and what we can do to improve it.

Don't call anyone else out. . . if you really want to know why i like it born, send me a pm.

Carry on

 

[RESPAWN]

I haven't had a chance to read the rest of the posts, so I apologize if my sentiments are too much like some of the others in this thread.

Anyway, I have to admit that when I first heard that Turbine was going Instant Respawn, I was skeptical about whether or not this would positively affect the gameplay on the server. I as afraid that, with Turbine being such a small map, that it would just turn into a deathmatch.

But I was wrong. See, the problem with Turbine -- the reason I stopped playing it -- was that the team that controlled the middle controlled the entire game. If Red had several good engineers and managed to setup a strong foothold in the center, BLU would simply have no choice but to turtle up and hope for the best. Generally, he who controls the middle wins the game. He who controls the middle can eventually kill enough players on the other team to break their defense, rush in, grab the intel, and rush back out while the defending team can do nothing but watch it happen while waiting for the respawn timeer to count down. And this got boring for me, which is why I moved on to other maps. Matches became too predictable. Too formulaic.

But, what I saw last night was a whole new Turbine. I saw a turbine where the team that didn't control the center still had a chance. Sure, whomever controlled the middle still had an advantage, but the advantage wasn't as clear as before. With instant respawn, it takes no time at all for the disadvantaged team to rush back to the defense of their intel. No longer could the team that controlled the center count on pounding the enemy's defenses until enough were dead that they could walk on in and take the intel. And you know what I noticed? This made the game better. I didn't see any 5 minute games where the team with fewer engineers spent more time dead than alive. I saw more of the action move out into the open, to the center of the map, and the gameplay seemed much more balanced. People were implementing new tactics and were less gun shy about sacrificing themselves to take down a gun emplacement. They knew that their sacrifice would allow their team to move up and that they themselves would be back into the fray in about 5 seconds flat.

Instant respawn has really revitalized the gameplay on Turbine and I for one congratulate council on making a change that has made one of our maps that much more enjoyable to play.

Kudos to you all and keep up the good work.

 

[sokO]

Plain and simple:

Insta spawn = deathmatch
15 second+ spawn = teamwork & Capture intel

 

[TheZaw]

My contribution! YAY!!!!

My Opinion: Insta Respawn is Bad

Spy's and snipers become useless, as one kill won't matter, there back in action, well, instantly =S. Demo's and soldiers are more spam festy. It's frusterating(spelll check) when a demo sticky camps your door long enough to let his team get a sentry up, and he can't be killed fast enough that theres no stickies for a long enough time. (Basicly, the window for a coordinated rush into the middle is even shorter).

My main class is spy and when i go out in the middle, i ave to make extra precations as to hide my self in the turbine too avoide all the spamfire. It never works as i eventually get hit, and im not a bad spy. Soldier, my second most played class, is even more frusterating. I waste rockets on pyros that W+MOUSE1 Towards me, instead of killing the heavy whose approaching.

And lastly, TURBINE IS TOO DARN SMALL FOR INSTA SPAWn =(.


Please change it oh might council! We forever trust in your "benevolent Dictatorship!"

 

[kat-24]

Plain and simple:

Insta spawn = deathmatch
15 second+ spawn = teamwork & Capture intel

I agree with Crash on this one. It feels like all strategy is gone from this map, and I'm not sure how many people it gets in the servers.

For the first time in my life, I felt like Pyro was a viable option! (NO offence to anyone who plays Pyro, but its just not me)

I got 80 kills, which is bitter sweet because I did it without having fun.

However if it brings more people in, (which I don't beleve it will) this IR is a viable option for eGO.

My main class is spy, which has become TOTALLY nerfed on turbine, as kills no longer matter.

(Here comes selfishness)
However. With toyfort gone, I as an individual feel that this is a a bad move, as turbine is now the only server I play on, as I have no intrest for any other servers in eGO. I love playing on eGO servers, but I don't have any to play on now that IR has come!

Bottom Line, In my opinon, not a good move, but we'll see what it does for the clan.

 

[Dreadmaker]

In my opinion, IR depends entirely on your motives.


It's very simple : Instant respawn leads to idiots. Not necessarily punks that have to be dealt with, but people who don't know what they are doing. They are drawn to IR servers because they don't have to wait to play after they die.

This has mixed effects. Last night, I threw a sentry up on the stairs up to the enemy battlements, and I got 15 kills before they addressed the problem. it's a vulnerable spot, but people just kept on walking in front of it. Why? I don't really know. I also got tons of backstabs as well.

For players with any modicum of skill, It will increase their HLX, and certainly give them a lot more kills. However, They, and anyone else, really, is simply kill farming. No one really tries for the intel, and that's the rub.


What is the first thought you want someone to think when someone talks about our servers? Sure, the goal is "punk free", but aside from that. Do we want to be a great place to practice being a spy, or an engie? Or do we want to be a great place to team up with some excellent players and really engage in the TEAM aspect of the game?


I generally don't mind either. I will say this, however. If it stays IR, My stats will rise significantly in the next week.