4/29/09 Update *Kinda*

[Vandall]

Well, maybe some people don't like RPG elements in a FPS and would rather have a game where they know where everyone stands in terms of the equipment they have instead of worrying about if the weapon he has will be tweaked correctly enough to be able to take out a specific type of enemy.

Variety is the spice of life, but too much spice makes anything taste bad.

We haven't even seen what they're gonna eventually give us. For all you know it can make the game even better. What i'm trying to say is that; what if valve told us they're bringing new stuff to the game? And we didn't realize that there are some RPG elements till it was released. Would you still complain, or would you still try it out before freaking out. Saying "World of Fortress 2" doesn't make it a bad game.

Moaning about it all day isn't gonna help either. Play the game or don't, it's your choice.

 

[lillGIL]

You really can't complain until you see exactly how things work with the gameplay. Regardless, I'm still going to play.

 

[Joy Of Pepsi]

Well, maybe some people don't like RPG elements in a FPS and would rather have a game where they know where everyone stands in terms of the equipment they have instead of worrying about if the weapon he has will be tweaked correctly enough to be able to take out a specific type of enemy.

Variety is the spice of life, but too much spice makes anything taste bad.

This isn't meant to be offense, but I honestly want to know the last game you played, that was a mix of FPS/RPG, and tell my how it was. Honestly.

You really can't complain until you see exactly how things work with the gameplay. Regardless, I'm still going to play.

Especially when we don't even have any real details as to how it'll work or what specifically the items will do. And to be honest, I don't think Valve will see too much a drop in players after this update.

 

[s3rv0]

would be nice to reveal the maniacal face of the pyro...or get a nifty Afro that stores all the hidden grenades for my Demoman...

Can anyone say Splinter Cell cosmetic for spy? i sure can baby

but honestly, if people start asking on the forums "Need someone to give a Mongoose Enchant on my KGB's" i will just migrate immediately to some other game (DOD:S a possibility)

Dude, it's the heavy. He'd want a +Str, +Stam. DUH!

Meet the Pyro...hm...Pyro will be either/both female and/or Asian. Both that gender and that region have yet to be represented in a game that's fairly culturally diverse (if comically so).

Either that, or when Valve implements new class(es), which they've hinted at as practically guaranteed, albeit "eventually," it'll be a samurai. Fast (similar to the scout), hard hitter in melee, decent HP (think like a demo or soldier), but practically or literally nonexistent ranged weapons. I like this class idea because it doesn't step on anyone's toes: Nobody is a straight up melee fighter. Spy is the closest, but he is not the "charge in and swing mah katanas" type character like the samurai would be. He (the spy) is more about stealth, deception, and building destruction.

Meh, my two cents on the RPG elements are simple: Wait and see. If it sucks, people will say so, and Valve will change it. Just like they have for things already: Backburners HP bonus? Repealed. Scout's OP Bonk Ownage? Nerfed. Truth be told, we've already had a BIT of RPG sashayed into our game: We all have an inventory of unlockables that we can equip at will to suit certain situations and/or playstyles. We all choose classes, something RPG'ers have been doing since days of yore.

Part of TF2 is inherently RPG, though its genre is definitely "shooter." So, this all in mind, we can't make assumptions that RPG elements will be bad, and that if they are, everyone will ragequit TF2 en masse forever. Valve isn't some artist trying to live out their vision of the perfect game; they're a company, whose first concern is making money by delivering the best product possible. They're also very in tune with their communities' needs and wants. Those two truths combine to tell me that any changes they make will have the ultimate objective of making the game better and more profitable for them; if the updates suck, they'll be gone. So...let's wait and see.

 

[Joy Of Pepsi]

Wow, you said it much better than I ever could have! :laugh:

 

[zombie allah]

i wonder if the medic is going to have to spec shadow in order to dps?

 

[A Blind Man Schmidt]

....WHY VALVE.....WHY?!?!?!?!?! :facewall: ....Why are you turning TF2 into WOW :facewall: If this turns out to turn into a WOW type game then this will happen

Valve--> :chair: <-- Me

 

[Joy Of Pepsi]

But that's the thing, it WON'T turn into a "WOW-type" game. We're not going to need to fly to different cities with clans, trying to fight epic bosses or do raids. It will always, at heart, but an FPS. So what if they put something interesting in the game?

 

[AdmiralVonBentebent]

Dude, it's the heavy. He'd want a +Str, +Stam. DUH!

Meet the Pyro...hm...Pyro will be either/both female and/or Asian. Both that gender and that region have yet to be represented in a game that's fairly culturally diverse (if comically so).

Either that, or when Valve implements new class(es), which they've hinted at as practically guaranteed, albeit "eventually," it'll be a samurai. Fast (similar to the scout), hard hitter in melee, decent HP (think like a demo or soldier), but practically or literally nonexistent ranged weapons. I like this class idea because it doesn't step on anyone's toes: Nobody is a straight up melee fighter. Spy is the closest, but he is not the "charge in and swing mah katanas" type character like the samurai would be. He (the spy) is more about stealth, deception, and building destruction.

Meh, my two cents on the RPG elements are simple: Wait and see. If it sucks, people will say so, and Valve will change it. Just like they have for things already: Backburners HP bonus? Repealed. Scout's OP Bonk Ownage? Nerfed. Truth be told, we've already had a BIT of RPG sashayed into our game: We all have an inventory of unlockables that we can equip at will to suit certain situations and/or playstyles. We all choose classes, something RPG'ers have been doing since days of yore.

Part of TF2 is inherently RPG, though its genre is definitely "shooter." So, this all in mind, we can't make assumptions that RPG elements will be bad, and that if they are, everyone will ragequit TF2 en masse forever. Valve isn't some artist trying to live out their vision of the perfect game; they're a company, whose first concern is making money by delivering the best product possible. They're also very in tune with their communities needs and wants. Those two truths combine to tell me that any changes they make will have the ultimate objective of making the game better and more profitable for them; if the updates suck, they'll be gone. So...let's wait and see.

He said it.

 

[OSVG]

The way Robin talks, I'm gonna have to find some Competitive servers that disables the armor/hats/ whatever.

The way he says purely cosmetic at first means that there is great intent to have this be the case until they work out the equipping bugs and what not. Unless their are trade off for having a hat w/ stats (i.e 1% greater crit rate 5% less dmg), it ruins what an FPS is supposed to be or at least tf2 in my opinion, an equal playing field that anyone can jump into at any time.

The reason valve has been so successful with their FPS's is because of the general balance

Hypothetical argument
-Well you have to unlock achievements for weapons, ergo new player arent on equal playing field.
Other than medic unlocks, these unlocks aren't as good for overall game play, very situational.

-Skilled players eat noobs alive, we need funky stuff to make it fair for the new players.
So? what are crits for? and practice... Learning curb on tf2 is the smallest of all valve games imo (tfc being the hardest) Throw a complete beginner into any new game and he either flops, or he's played enough games similar to have fps experience


And yes, I never wanted new weapons in the first place. No medic update no nothin'
However, I cant say i didn't like it. That being said the new updates will be fine so long as there are trade offs for armors / other stuff. As fort he customization Robin talks about. What are skin for

 

[supertrooper]

i kindof like the possibility of cosmetic updates, but not so much the RPG updates. but we'll see.

 

[Ash//]

I mean im quite open minded to the RPGish thing.
I mean its going to change the gameplay no doubt but i mean its going to be very fun to spot a spy after
It will be a update i for one am looking forward too.
Now pleaseeeee the soldier update.

Ash//

 

[Mystery Penguin]

TF2 will always be TF2 in my book. The game is always updated with fresh, new things. I think the RPG-ish feel will add a new twist to the game, and I'm sure it'll be original. Valve does a *heck* of a lot better than EA/DICE as far as content updates (*cough*BF2*cough*).

yes, the new map sucks :facewall:

 

[Joy Of Pepsi]

I guess I'll stop trying to convince people that this game will still be fun or whatnot. I'm playing this game until it dies, maybe not exclusively, but definitely will still be playing. If you think TF2 is going down the boat, you've got three options:


1) Go tell Valve about it. They want to hear suggestions like these. (Recommended)

2) Wait for the update to actually be released, then see if you like it or don't like it. If you don't, see option 1.

3) Leave the game. Just walk away. It'll never be perfect for you, so leave it alone.

 

[OSVG]

I guess I'll stop trying to convince people that this game will still be fun or whatnot. I'm playing this game until it dies, maybe not exclusively, but definitely will still be playing. If you think TF2 is going down the boat, you've got three options:


1) Go tell Valve about it. They want to hear suggestions like these. (Recommended)

2) Wait for the update to actually be released, then see if you like it or don't like it. If you don't, see option 1.

3) Leave the game. Just walk away. It'll never be perfect for you, so leave it alone.

Well I think of everyone who likes the game
1/3 want the game to change to see it keep evolving as it has
1/3 really don't care they'll play whatever becomes of tf2
1/3 are closed minded. OF these half will most likely like the new updates although opposing the idea initially (myself included here) and the other half will find servers that disallow the new content deemed bad (ie sandman banned servers).

my 4 cents b/c i already contrbuted 2 cents and 2!x2! = 4! / 3! = 2^2 = 2^2! = my brains = 4

 

[Cut Chem!st]

I read that then went to the Tf2 fourms and watched all the people freaking out about the weapon drops have a big sigh of relief. This is why people shouldn't make roomers about things to get everyone on edge. Its just Tf2, with cosmetic updates and i'm glad we won't have to grind achievements for the sniper update probably a lot better system and more enjoyable.

 

[Retribution]

:facewall::facewall::facewall::facewall::facewall::facewall::facewall::facewall::facewall::facewall::facewall::facewall::facewall:
is there any other way to say it?
well I guess there's
:chair::chair::chair::chair::chair::chair::chair::chair::chair::chair::chair::chair::chair::chair::chair::chair::chair::chair::chair:
why would the game designers build an FPS if they wanted to change it to an RPG???? it makes no sense! And I didn't pay 20 dollars to play an RPG!

seriously, why would valve take a perfectly good FPS and ruin it?
the scout update semi-ruined the game for me, with "kickback" "invincibility" and "stunning" wtf are they thinking?!

 

[Lance]

The way Robin talks, I'm gonna have to find some Competitive servers that disables the armor/hats/ whatever.

The way he says purely cosmetic at first means that there is great intent to have this be the case until they work out the equipping bugs and what not. Unless their are trade off for having a hat w/ stats (i.e 1% greater crit rate 5% less dmg), it ruins what an FPS is supposed to be or at least tf2 in my opinion, an equal playing field that anyone can jump into at any time.

The reason valve has been so successful with their FPS's is because of the general balance

Hypothetical argument
-Well you have to unlock achievements for weapons, ergo new player arent on equal playing field.
Other than medic unlocks, these unlocks aren't as good for overall game play, very situational.

-Skilled players eat noobs alive, we need funky stuff to make it fair for the new players.
So? what are crits for? and practice... Learning curb on tf2 is the smallest of all valve games imo (tfc being the hardest) Throw a complete beginner into any new game and he either flops, or he's played enough games similar to have fps experience


And yes, I never wanted new weapons in the first place. No medic update no nothin'
However, I cant say i didn't like it. That being said the new updates will be fine so long as there are trade offs for armors / other stuff. As fort he customization Robin talks about. What are skin for

Of course there will be trade-offs! This game is always aiming for balance, and Valve always does a good job.

 

[Legend]

Hey d00dz can I have some gold for epix mount for my heavy?!

 

[DRaGZ]

First off, Valve doesn't always necessarily do a good job.

Second of all, I'm sure that I could find the new stuff fun. Personally, I am considering the possibilities right now. But I don't want changes which will fundamentally make me worry about whether what I am holding versus what the enemy is holding makes me have to play differently even when I am not sure that I have to play differently.

Lemme explain (and these stat modifications are based on the stuff posted on the TF2 boards and the conjecture there, which seems highly likely the direction Valve is going towards eventually):

Let's say I am a Scout armed with the Force-A-Nature on the bridge in 2Fort and a Soldier engages me. I know he's equipped with a Rocket Launcher so I know what he is capable of. I know that two rockets will generally kill me, three if I am lucky, and I know that he can only fire four total before he needs to reload. He fires a rocket, I dodge it, he fires another, I dodge it, he fires a third, I dodge it, I know he doesn't have enough rockets to kill me (provided he doesn't crit) so I engage and probably will win since my FAN + 1 whack of bat or a clip of pistol ammo will kill him. I made a tactical decision based on what I understand the soldier can do.

But what if these new updates roll around and the Soldier has a new rocket launcher that actually holds 5 missiles at the cost of firing rate? Or maybe slightly more damage per missile at the cost of run speed? Or maybe faster rockets at the cost of crits? Unless there is somehow a very explicit visual cue for me to see that the Soldier has a certain type of gun that doesn't somehow clutter up the visual information on the field that lets me know he has these attributes, I would be going in with basically unclear knowledge of how I should engage. Is he going to run out of rockets after 4? Will I even survive a single rocket? How much time do I have before a rocket from across the bridge reaches me?

Basically, from my point of view, the equipment the soldier is holding is random. Anything more than one, maybe two-three types of unlockables makes it very hard to keep track of what enemy is holding what and what that entails in terms of combat strategy, and so I don't have a clear idea of how to approach, I play more cautiously, i.e. slower-paced.

This works in an RPG setting because the step-by-step pace allows you to spend time identifying an enemy's weakness and exploiting it, but that doesn't work as easily in a shooter that's relatively twitch-based. All I should need to know is that its a Soldier and that being a Soldier entails certain problems and benefits. I shouldn't need to worry about the fact that his new rocket launcher makes him slightly faster than others or that his rocket launcher shoots faster rockets than most because that level of detail detracts from the pace of a shooter.

I'm not saying Valve will necessarily go in such a direction, but that, from the evidence, including what Robin has said, it looks very likely.

BTW, before you mention the unlockables and how they change the pace, the unlockables, so far, are only limited to a few classes, are singular, and are easily distinguishable from their default counterparts if they are wholly different. This makes them easy to identify and easy to assess their threat. If we had a flood of new but similar weapons with varying buffs and nerfs for each class, it makes it much harder to assess threat values in a battle because it's hard to fully appreciate what a class will be capable of, especially in the hectic combat of a team-based FPS.

I just hope that, whatever the changes are in these new weapons, that, if they are not as distinguishable for previous default weapons, that they at least have a small enough effect so that threat value does not need to be reassessed unnecessarily in combat simply because one doesn't have a clear idea of what it could be due to randomness.