Feedback for the new scramble teams plugin

[Beaverbeliever]

It seems to be working OK. I haven't heard any praise or complaints about the plugin on Turbine, but on the other hand I haven't heard any complaints about the LACK of the plugin on Turbine, so it's at least filling a niche.

However, during one autobalance, I don't know if it was a wonky balancer or a whole bunch of silent ragequits, but BLU had 6 people and RED ended up with 12!

A buddy system would be nice... however, like Agent said, make everything automatic. So if you want to add that functionality, just have it pick whoever you have the most assists with

Finally, +1 for the Godmode Message. Instead of putting the message in the bottom left corner, smack in the middle of the screen would be good. And don't make the message sound like a punishment ("You've won too much!") like the current message... spin it into a positive. Even just "Team Scramble!" would be better than the current message. Maybe have an admins only message that explains why. (Doubleplusgood if you can somehow make the game use the Announcer's "Team scramble!" lines (from Arena) when it happens, so it feels more part of the gameplay )

FINALLY finally... could we change the scramble limit on Turbine? Turbine runs pretty fast, and it's pretty common that a team will lose 3 matches in a row right after the server resets the map (Happens to me EVERY TIME the map resets). Setting the scramble limit to 5 would still take care of the balance problems while not punishing a team because they got their act together quicker

I agree completely with all of this. But I strongly think the feature where I can't switch to spec is a bad idea. Especially where it publicly warns: OH NOEZ: BEAVERS TRYING TO STACK TEAMS :scared:

 

[Rellik]

My wife has started to play TF2... she's not very good... But I bring her to eGO so she can have good, and friendly people to play with (instead of 1v1 on a lan server).

Last night I FINALLY was able to switch to her team.. 2 minutes later I got swapped (not auto-balanced) to the other team.

There's noone else watching out for her on the team, She's a total noob... After this we went to bed.

 

[!Woodstock!]

I was just playing GP again, and at the round end I was autobalanced from red to blu, then the teams switch like normal so I'm back on red again, then at round start scramble kicked in and swapped me to blu. All this took place in ~2seconds.

 

[_Xx_HeX_xX_]

This is acctually really hard for me to say , as i know personally , coding is hard and time consuming. I understand you are doing all that is possible .On the other side of things my honest opinion is this needs to be done away with . I as well as others don't even like playing whith this thing running . Auto scramble for no paticular reason isnt fair nor fun . I mean there is a reason no other popular servers run scrabmbles and i know for a fact it is really going to hurt our server ratings . If me (an Ego) doesnt even like to play our servers with this on,what would make a pub stay then . I can't stand for this on our servers . and honestly i don't see myself even playing on a eGO server much with this on . This is not a threat do NOT take it as one. It is more of a fact, I don't honestly like saying it and it acctually hurts me to say it , but its the truth .

 

[Maj.Emish]

While I appreciate leadership's eagerness to tackle the stacked teams issue and agent's time and hard work in coming up with a solution, I very much dislike the auto scramble.

I play often with friends. I'm perfectly happy to be playing with them whether I'm getting steamrolled or whether I'm on a stacked team.

I've been on a steamrolled team many times, but with patience, it always, always turns around. One time, with good intentions, I asked an advisor to scramble teams. There was such an uproar from players and admins alike, I swore I'd never do it again. It wasn't worth it.

There are two kinds of players: The kind who will tough it out and help his team turn it around and the kind who deserts his team to join the stacked team. But at least we have the choice. We lose that with this scramble thing.

After a scramble, if you try to change teams you get this message (not sure if only admins see it or if everyone does):

[SM] Team changes are blocked after a switch or scramble.
[SM] =(eGO)=™ A Nurse From Texas is trying to re-stack the teams. For shame!

Nothing is more infuriating than to be playing with my friends or a team I've just spent 30 min or better getting acclimated to than to be scrambled. The three times I've experienced it, I was so flustered, I wanted to leave the server. I haven't tried it yet, but if leaving the game and coming back will allow you to change teams to get around it, I will be so inclined, as I'm sure others will be.

A great deal of the time the losing team is losing because they deserve to be, because there are too many inappropriate classes or because they care more about backstabbing and sniping than they do about helping their team win, not because the winning team is stacked. Maybe I have a cold-hearted stance on it, but I'm sick of the "the teams are stacked," incessant whining coming from both pubs and members, and I think we should not cater to them. Tough it or switch teams. It's a game!

I have the most fun and stay the longest in a server when I hook up with a friend in-game. I have some pub friends who don't have time to play for very long periods. We like to spend that time playing together. Separate us and we won't play as long or we'll find a server that doesn't scramble. I would imagine this will be the case with many others.

You don't see me voicing my opinion much around here, but I feel very strongly about this issue. IMO, it should be left alone, as Valve intended it.

summed up perfectly.

I play a lot in 2fort instant with my friends coupon queen and king. if we got broken up all the time i would not enjoy playing as much.

for the record i experienced it in turbine and i got aggitated after the second swap.

 

[Stickyfinger]

I love it.

 

[Rellik]

I thought of some more to add here:
Firstly Let Me Say: THANK YOU FOR ALL YOUR HARD WORK AND DEDICATION AGENT86.
I appreciate all the work you've put into these... However....

I believe we are trying to fix something that isn't broke. We are catering to a SMALL group of VOCAL people. Most people have no problem with the balancing of maps. And to be honest I've never really seen anyone complain (strongly) except on one particular map. Now that being said, I was driving home today after picking up a movie, and some ice cream for the kids... And to mind came a blast we had on Egypt
LINK: http://www.edgegamers.org/forums/showthread.php?t=85672
On our Egypt we have a pretty big group of regulars. And most the time we have fun. One of the things we like to do there, from time to time, is >all-one-class< rushes/defenses. ie: All spy defense. All soldier rush. All scout defense. And other such shenanigens... Most the time... we loose horribly. but everyone is laughing, having a good time. Quite frankly having a blast! Noone cares that we are loosing. Everyone is focused on what playing a video GAME is supposed to be about. HAVING FUN! If we all got scrambled around after a round or two... it would immediately destroy the fun we were having... As you can see from the scores... we were loosing horribly. And you know what? NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON COMPLAINED.

Like I said, most people who play on our servers play for fun. The problem this plug-in is going to create is keeping friends from playing together, and catering to a small group that cares more about winning, than having a fun game.

 

[SnipaDuDe-]

I thought of some more to add here:
Firstly Let Me Say: THANK YOU FOR ALL YOUR HARD WORK AND DEDICATION AGENT86.
I appreciate all the work you've put into these... However....

I believe we are trying to fix something that isn't broke. We are catering to a SMALL group of VOCAL people. Most people have no problem with the balancing of maps. And to be honest I've never really seen anyone complain (strongly) except on one particular map. Now that being said, I was driving home today after picking up a movie, and some ice cream for the kids... And to mind came a blast we had on Egypt
LINK: http://www.edgegamers.org/forums/showthread.php?t=85672
On our Egypt we have a pretty big group of regulars. And most the time we have fun. One of the things we like to do there, from time to time, is >all-one-class< rushes/defenses. ie: All spy defense. All soldier rush. All scout defense. And other such shenanigens... Most the time... we loose horribly. but everyone is laughing, having a good time. Quite frankly having a blast! Noone cares that we are loosing. Everyone is focused on what playing a video GAME is supposed to be about. HAVING FUN! If we all got scrambled around after a round or two... it would immediately destroy the fun we were having... As you can see from the scores... we were loosing horribly. And you know what? NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON COMPLAINED.

Like I said, most people who play on our servers play for fun. The problem this plug-in is going to create is keeping friends from playing together, and catering to a small group that cares more about winning, than having a fun game.

My exact opinion.

This plugins shouldn't autoscramble i'm sorry. Also i love playing with freinds winning or losing because we more of talk and have fun = ). Sorry to say but the servers seem better off without it but you did do a great job on it agent86. Also i'm in the group who loves to win but id still rather have fun = )

 

[A Nurse from Texas]

Just witnessed two players leave after the scramble on Turbine. Another Point Farmer and Another Point Farmer Helper. They were separated in the scramble. After one attempted to change teams and failed, they both left. Afraid this will keep happening.

After the scrambles, I'm seeing a lot of "aw" and "wtf?"

Thought it was worth mentioning.

Also, on a fast-paced map like Turbine, it's happening way too often. It's not giving teams time to coordinate to become a winning team. It's taking the T E A M out of Team Fortress.

 

[Haggus McGee]

wouldn't you expect a higher k/d ratio for red on gravel? It should be if one team ends the round obsenely quick or they never cap a point...

 

[Cicatriz]

Update: I was in Gravelpit again the other night. A lot of people were complaining about it happening. I was even blamed at one point for it because I was the only admin on and they were obviously a regular because they knew the rules/admin structure. I had to politely tell him that it was out of my hands and it's a new plugin, that I had no control over. He ended up leaving shortly after I explained the situation and so did a bunch of others.

 

[agent86]

I believe we are trying to fix something that isn't broke. We are catering to a SMALL group of VOCAL people.

How would you describe yourselves then?

I went through and counted the replies to this thread, minus the ones trykael moderated because they weren't posting about actual experiences, and minus leadership, and the tally was:

Great, love it: 2 people
Needs work, but hopeful: 8 people
Neutral: 1 person
Hate the concept: 10 people

I think there are vocal minorities on both sides of this issue. There are people who will quit the server if the teams are stacked and it isn't fun unless the game is at least somewhat close, and there are people who will quit the server because they can't play on the team they picked at the beginning throughout the whole game.

Both positions are valid. I think most people are somewhere in between. For the record, I hated hated hated the old scrambleteams plugin, and I consider this only marginally better.

There is no answer that will please everyone. Consider this an attempt to find a middle ground. Yes, if you're in category A and we're moving closer towards a solution for category B people, you're not going to be happy. I think trying to find a balance that makes the most number of people happy is important. I know we're going to piss people off. Sorry!

I agree with people who have provided feedback about a number of drawbacks this solution has, and I'll try to implement some of those soon and get the beta servers updated.

Please stay calm

Thanks,

 

[Maj.Emish]

Just witnessed two players leave after the scramble on Turbine. Another Point Farmer and Another Point Farmer Helper. They were separated in the scramble. After one attempted to change teams and failed, they both left. Afraid this will keep happening.

After the scrambles, I'm seeing a lot of "aw" and "wtf?"

Thought it was worth mentioning.

Also, on a fast-paced map like Turbine, it's happening way too often. It's not giving teams time to coordinate to become a winning team. It's taking the T E A M out of Team Fortress.

I went through a whole bunch of scrambles today and it was not fun at all. For anyone, it was splitting everyone up. It's 11 where i live and the turbine server is usually full at this point in the day and it's just about empty right now because it isn't any fun to play on. If you gave O's the ability to turn off the scramble thing and turn it back on when deemed necessary it would be a lot better than how it is now.

 

[Rellik]

.......
Both positions are valid.
.....

If both positions are valid... and opinions seem to be about equal on both sides for/against. Then, in my opinion, You go with what came with the game. The way things were made. In other words, leave it alone.

Like I said, I definitely appreciate the work you're doing. But we are adding an extra game mechanic to the game... Thus we are changing the way the game is played. We are, in effect, telling people HOW to play. In other words: Be better, or you'll get scrambled. Or don't be too good, or you'll get scrambled.

 

[Danzyyg]

I like it, but I think a vote scramble would be better

 

[agent86]

If both positions are valid... and opinions seem to be about equal on both sides for/against. Then, in my opinion, You go with what came with the game. The way things were made. In other words, leave it alone.

Like I said, I definitely appreciate the work you're doing. But we are adding an extra game mechanic to the game... Thus we are changing the way the game is played. We are, in effect, telling people HOW to play. In other words: Be better, or you'll get scrambled. Or don't be too good, or you'll get scrambled.

I don't think that's valid. There are people who were asking for this who haven't weighed in in this particular thread. The purposes of counting the people who were providing negative feedback was not to call it a vote. I just object to your characterization of 'people for this idea' as a vocal minority, as if you represented a majority opinion.

This project in particular came at the request of Garden - I don't care if you like my work or not, in this case we're testing something at his request.

I'm reading a ton of thinly veiled hostility from a few people towards this. The point of my post was, "Hey, look, they have a valid point. Can we at least consider tipping things somewhat towards them? I know that's going to make things slightly worse for you, and I know that what we are testing isn't perfect, but can we try to be moderate and not polarized?"

 

[Rellik]

I get that. And I agree. And I don't know if my voice is in the majority or not... didn't really mean for it to sound like that.

But back on topic. because this just happened (in gravel pit)... When teams get stacked... especially for the losing team. You may find you are losing... You have to many snipers, not enough medics. to many this, not enough that. etc... You (as an admin) find you also have a couple afk's. you get rid of them, things balance out a bit. you take charge of the team, ask people to move around. they finally do. you start to do good..... and then the teams get completely scrambled... And you have to start all over... This just happened. and we went from a pretty balanced losing (albeit it coming back) team... To a completely mixed up team... With too many of this, and not enough of that.

EDIT TO ADD: Also just happened on gravel pit. I was on blue. We were loosing 40-44... we won three rounds in a row, bringing us up to 42-44... and we got scrambled.... still losing... but scrambled...
Edit to add again: It was brought to my attention (through steam) that this plugin doesn't consider team score. And i get that. I only post it here as a relevance. We were loosing... not by alot. but enough to be noticeable. Then we had a few good rounds, and everyone was getting pumped.. excited... having fun... Then we all got scrambled.

 

[!Woodstock!]

I see this all coming down to the pubs. If the servers are emptying out because of the scramble, and there is no other way to fix the plugin after many attempts, then its up to Garden (project lead) and the leadership to decide if they want full servers, or mostly empty balanced servers. Now keep in mind that i said "IF".

However on the other hand, if there is a good solution with many tweaks of the plugin, or the !buddy / !lockbuddy plugin, vote scramble, eGO only access to the scramble, or something else we have not though of yet; then this scramble plugin could be usable.

Some of you know that I have a very strong opinion in the pro-scramble vs. anti-scramble debate. I hope though, that this is only slightly noticeable or better yet, not at all noticeable in my posts about this plugin. I am trying to be as objective as possible.

That being said, I off to GravelPit.

 

[JHeat]

I've been out of town, so I just got to experience the new auto-balance plug-in today for the first time on gravelpit.

To be blunt, I'm not the biggest fan of the new plug-in. I agree with some of the things that Nurse and Rellik have said. Two of the biggest points seem to be as follows:

Teamwork. When we got rid of the old method of team scramble, I feel the concept of teamwork became very important to playing the game. Without any way of forcing the teams to be balanced, it was now up to the players themselves to work together if they planned on winning. For me, this added a whole new level to the game play. With the new plug-in, this element has been taken away for the most part. You can rally your team together to start playing as one, but that is all for naught after 3 rounds. In between the the previous scramble plug-in and this one, the teams would even themselves out on their own, albeit taking a little longer than 3 rounds.

Playing with friends. I enjoy getting the opportunity to play on the same team as my friends, regardless of what the situation is concerning winning or losing. And while whether or not I'm playing on the same team as my friends isn't the biggest factor, it does suck when I get scrambled away from them. I believe that this game should be first and foremost about fun, not winning. Granted, to some players the fun of the game comes when they are winning. I personally have the most fun playing with my friends, regardless of whether I'm winning or losing ( however, the "/buddy" idea seems like the best solution available at the time for this issue).

Ultimately I think the whole issue comes down to a matter of choice. The team scramble takes away the players choice of which team they want to be on, who they want to play with, and most importantly, how hard they're willing to work together for the win.

I don't think the power of team scramble should be in the hands of the admin, and I don't think it should belong to the random generations of a plug-in either. I think the best route is to let it occur naturally.

All this being said, I believe that it does ultimately come down to the pubs. Nobody seems to like change. With every Valve update, there is a huge uproar across the forums of people liking this and hating that. And then after a few weeks, everyone gets used to it (or stops playing) and things relatively go back to normal. I can not say with any certainty what my thoughts on the new plug-in will be in two weeks, but I can say that my intial dosage of it left a very bad taste in my mouth.

I think that a lot of the issues being raised here are valid concerns. But it comes down to seeing what will happen, and ultimately, how the pubs respond to it. If it starts to empty out our servers, then it obviously should be done away with. But because unfortunately one of our most important factors to keep in mind is if what we are doing is keeping our servers full, if people get used to it, grow to accept it or even like it, the things we lose such as the increased emphasis on teamwork and the ability to play with friends will have to rest in peace.

I hope that it is the latter.

 

[Zero711]

I agree with just about everything that everybody's said. I still don;t like it. There was actually one case on Gravel Pit where me and 2 pubs that were doing relly good (pyro and medic working together) steamrolled the other team, we were the top 3 players. After the scramble, we were still on the same team, which prompted a mass calling of "fail scramble".It doesn't seem to be very accurate, and I would like to play with my friends, sometimes I get scrambled to them, sometimes away from them. I tend to try and join the losing team if thing's are really bad, but as has been said, getting steamrolled encourages teamwork. I honeslty like the vote scramble better, I know it was for all admins, then for leadership only, and now its gone. I preferred that one though. Just my opinion.