MS

Senior Technical Manager
Tech
NOTE: I have re-posted this thread here.

Hi all, I think it's bizarre how EGO's TTT limits the power of KOSes. In nearly every other TTT server, all players can follow through with a KOS called by someone else.
This makes sense: KOS means Kill On Sight. Usually the reason to broadcast this is that a player has witnessed a traitorous act and is alerting everyone to kill said player.

But this isn't how it is on EGO. On EGO, only the player that calls the KOS (or witnesses said act) may kill the perpetrator. In other words, KOS means "I will kill this player, but you can't". It is in other words much less impactful in terms of gameplay. I recommend a rule change allowing innocents and detectives to both follow through with other innocents and detectives' KOSes.
I do not currently understand the reasoning behind this restriction. Detectives are essentially proven innocents. They are just as susceptible, perceptive, and able as a regular innocent in terms of KOSes. It is just as likely for a detective to call a false KOS as it is an innocent.

The most obvious change that this will have is balance. I believe that this change would not be substantial in terms of overpowered/underpowered roles. I believe that if this change were to be implemented. Traitors would be smarter about how they go about killing (they would want to kill quicker, and, if called out, would want to be less conspicuous), Innocents would be strongly encouraged to use their microphones and be less grouped up, and detectives would be less targeted.

Please let me know what you think about this suggestion, I am interested in hearing pros and cons. Please do your best to explain and support any opinions you have. Thank you.

NOTE: I have re-posted this thread here.
 
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It’s late and I haven’t given this much thought but I figured you’d want an immediate answer. Personally having the detectives be the only ones to call koses that are valid should stay in place. Detectives serve as the “authority” on TTT proving innocents and calling out traitors. Put it in perspective towards reality, I have the right to a citizens arrest. I have witnessed a crime and I am acting upon it. However, say I saw it and called up my buddy Tom and said, “Hey man, I just saw so and so do this, you should do something about it.” Tom proceeds to act on someone else’s behalf in which they really didn’t have any sort of proof to begin with. This is in order to keep it in a roleplay sort of way, and keep things realistic. Kind of on the bases of killing off weapon. Someone may have a m4a1-s and I see that their name is on it, but realistically speaking the only reason that is there is because of an outside source (the game).
 
Honestly, despite understanding how it might feel sometimes for innocents to call KOS on someone (so others follow it) because they are 100% certain that someone did a traitorous act, I am hardly against it.

That's because, this will encourage a lot of trolls and griefers to start calling KOS on people they don't like, or people they died from in previous rounds, encouraging Revenge RDMing in a passive manner.

In all honesty, I believe that innocent shouldn't be allowed at all to call a KOS (they can call someone sus and thats how it was some time ago after all), because, in a case of a new player that hardly remembers/knows the rules around KOSing, he will just follow the call and ruin another player's round just because everyone is screaming: "It's X guy, he is the traitor, kill him!" or "KOS X person", then it makes things even worse, cause it produces more RDM incidents thus also more reports for admins to deal with.

So, unfortunately, at the current state of the servers, it's a big no from me.
 
Not a whole lot I can really elaborate on from what Grumpy and Juve said, and yeah I get where you're coming from...but it would cause pure chaos.

I mean, just look at admin chat as it stands right now on a map like closequarters where we're getting 2-3 RDM reports per ROUND. Then go ahead and try to sift through those reports when you get "revenge KOS's".

If we wanted to discuss loosening up traitorous actions versus suspicious actions I could get behind some alterations there, but this is gonna be a hard pass for me.
 
https://www.edgegamers.com/threads/368761/post-3287864

Because this is cross-posted here.


In all honesty, I believe that innocent shouldn't be allowed at all to call a KOS
This is also something I pondered. Rather than having the confusion of having inno's KOS people at all, them staying silent would fix a lot of the problems with inno's following another inno's KOS. Though like this suggestion, we'd get a "new" type of RDM to deal with, which would result from innos essentially not giving time to ID because they just watched some dude walk up and kill somebody with no context. (RDM via failing to allow ID Time)
 
I would be more for making a rule that Innocents can't call KOS at all.

This is a huge -1 from me for reasons already specified by JuVe, Grumpy, Gruffalo.
no. let innocent call inno kos even if others can’t follow through atleast ppl are aware of who to watch out for
 
NOTE: I have re-posted this thread here.

Hi all, I think it's bizarre how EGO's TTT limits the power of KOSes. In nearly every other TTT server, all players can follow through with a KOS called by someone else.
This makes sense: KOS means Kill On Sight. Usually the reason to broadcast this is that a player has witnessed a traitorous act and is alerting everyone to kill said player.

But this isn't how it is on EGO. On EGO, only the player that calls the KOS (or witnesses said act) may kill the perpetrator. In other words, KOS means "I will kill this player, but you can't". It is in other words much less impactful in terms of gameplay. I recommend a rule change allowing innocents and detectives to both follow through with other innocents and detectives' KOSes.
I do not currently understand the reasoning behind this restriction. Detectives are essentially proven innocents. They are just as susceptible, perceptive, and able as a regular innocent in terms of KOSes. It is just as likely for a detective to call a false KOS as it is an innocent.

The most obvious change that this will have is balance. I believe that this change would not be substantial in terms of overpowered/underpowered roles. I believe that if this change were to be implemented. Traitors would be smarter about how they go about killing (they would want to kill quicker, and, if called out, would want to be less conspicuous), Innocents would be strongly encouraged to use their microphones and be less grouped up, and detectives would be less targeted.

Please let me know what you think about this suggestion, I am interested in hearing pros and cons. Please do your best to explain and support any opinions you have. Thank you.

NOTE: I have re-posted this thread here.
i like that detectives get targeted gives incentive to stick together as innocent. albeit making it harder for traitors but once det dies the likelihood of t’s winning goes up. innocent should already be using their mics to talk with each other. overall i just like how the rules are right now. i used to admin for a diff community where innos were allowed to call kos and the amt of rdm and confusion made my job wayy harder
 
no. let innocent call inno kos even if others can’t follow through atleast ppl are aware of who to watch out for
There are other ways of an innocent making being aware... like saying "anas just tried to kill me, I think he's a traitor!"

Just saying, the whole innocents calling KOS causes more chaos than anything and just leads to more RDMs. Rather than allowing people to follow a "innocent KOS" - just make it so innocents aren't allowed to say "KOS"

Problem solved.
 
There are other ways of an innocent making being aware... like saying "anas just tried to kill me, I think he's a traitor!"

Just saying, the whole innocents calling KOS causes more chaos than anything and just leads to more RDMs. Rather than allowing people to follow a "innocent KOS" - just make it so innocents aren't allowed to say "KOS"

Problem solved.
Saying "KOS *player*" basically means what you said, "*player* just tried to kill me, I think he's a traitor, watch out for him", it basically gives out a warning to everyone else that the player is probably a T and they should be careful when near them. As for inos killing based on ino kos, this doesn't happen that often, and when it does people usually tell that person you can't kill based on an inno's kos.
 
There are other ways of an innocent making being aware... like saying "anas just tried to kill me, I think he's a traitor!"

Just saying, the whole innocents calling KOS causes more chaos than anything and just leads to more RDMs. Rather than allowing people to follow a "innocent KOS" - just make it so innocents aren't allowed to say "KOS"

Problem solved.
i never had issues with innos following inno koses (unless they’re new to the server) most of the time players understand to be weary of them. one issue that could happen is if someone calls an inno kos and kills them, then other ppl would kill him not understanding the situation.
Saying "KOS *player*" basically means what you said, "*player* just tried to kill me, I think he's a traitor, watch out for him", it basically gives out a warning to everyone else that the player is probably a T and they should be careful when near them. As for inos killing based on ino kos, this doesn't happen that often, and when it does people usually tell that person you can't kill based on an inno's kos.
agreed
 
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i never had issues with innos following inno koses (unless they’re new to the server) most of the time players understand to be weary of them. one issue that could happen is if someone calls an inno kos and kills them, then other ppl would kill him not understanding the situation.
Then, I think you might be missing on the servers, because I have witnessed it a LOT of times. Especially lately, people are using it to (Revenge) RDM and generally grief around each round. And most of them are either people with an (e) tag, or just long time regulars, who would find some excuse like "Whoops, I thought it was the detective calling it" just to get past being punished since they know that this a way to get away scott-free after all (Considering how admins reply to that kind of stuff).

There is a reason there are other callouts for exactly that purpose: "sus" and "high sus", to indicate to others if someone is possibly a traitor. We can't just follow whatever some random innocent says, cause a lot of people lack proper judgement on finding out who the traitor really is, unlike the detectives, who at least have a tool that helps them find out who is what.
 
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Then, I think you might be missing on the servers, because I have witnessed it a LOT of times. Especially lately, people are using it to (Revenge) RDM and generally grief around each round. And most of them are either people with an (e) tag, or just long time regulars, who would find some excuse like "Whoops, I thought it was the detective calling it" just to get past being punished since they know that this a way to get away scott-free after all (Considering how admins reply to that kind of stuff).

There is a reason there are other callouts for exactly that purpose: "sus" and "high sus", to indicate to others if someone is possibly a traitor. We can't just follow whatever some random innocent says, cause a lot of people lack proper judgement on finding out who the traitor really is, unlike the detectives, who at least have a tool that helps them find out who is what.
currently on vacation so i’m not too sure if things changed. “We can't just follow whatever some random innocent says,” if that were true we can’t follow “sus” and “high sus” callouts either. i’m not too sure if things changed but when an inno calls a kos on somebody nobody follows that kos except the person who called it. it’s on the admins discretion to deal with people who try to get past that rule. i’m not sure if i understand what you’re saying but i have a question say i’m an inno and i see someone murder someone can i call a kos on him or just call him sus? since if i can’t call a kos and just murder him it causes more rdm. i honestly don’t see a reason to not let innos call inno koses that others can’t follow
 
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currently on vacation so i’m not too sure if things changed. “We can't just follow whatever some random innocent says,” if that were true we can’t follow “sus” and “high sus” callouts either. i’m not too sure if things changed but when an inno calls a kos on somebody nobody follows that kos except the person who called it. it’s on the admins discretion to deal with people who try to get past that rule.

But why make things difficult for admins either, when there is already an issue dealing with reports (this can be seen pretty easily on a populated time on the servers), having to deal with "X guy called an inno KOS on me and I got RDMed", instead of just making things easier for everyone, right?

Back in 2019 and a part of 2020, I hardly ever recalled people using KOS so much while being an innocent (hardly anyone would say it), because people knew that it was only the detective allowed to call this out, and that's how it should remain, in order to avoid any such confusions as mentioned above.

i’m not sure if i understand what you’re saying but i have a question say i’m an inno and i see someone murder someone can i call a kos on him or just call him sus? since if i can’t call a kos and just murder him it causes more rdm. i honestly don’t see a reason to not let innos call inno koses that others can’t follow

You can say, high sus on X person, cause he killed an innocent (which instantly marks him as a potential traitor to other players). Killing a player which you witnessed kill someone who is proven to be innocent, doesn't mean RDM. It's this entire mentality of people thinking that others have to KOS someone (even as an innocent that is), which leads to chain RDM situations, while if it was only the detective being able to KOS on his own, it would dramatically improve situations, as well as, help us catch people who intentionally get others killed because of some KOS calls they give out.

Also, just picture yourself being targeted by someone who keeps trying to find reasons to KOS you, and ruins your gameplay any chance he gets. Now, you as an admin, would have it easy, cause you can punish the player eventually, but the ones that are not admins, are just gonna keep losing interest over getting RDMed (intentionally or not), and eventually quit the server, thus leaving us with only the toxic part of the population left.

And that's why KOS from innocent players shouldn't be allowed in my opinion.
 
no. let innocent call inno kos even if others can’t follow through atleast ppl are aware of who to watch out for

There are other ways of an innocent making being aware... like saying "anas just tried to kill me, I think he's a traitor!"

Just saying, the whole innocents calling KOS causes more chaos than anything and just leads to more RDMs. Rather than allowing people to follow a "innocent KOS" - just make it so innocents aren't allowed to say "KOS"

Problem solved.

Saying "KOS *player*" basically means what you said, "*player* just tried to kill me, I think he's a traitor, watch out for him", it basically gives out a warning to everyone else that the player is probably a T and they should be careful when near them. As for inos killing based on ino kos, this doesn't happen that often, and when it does people usually tell that person you can't kill based on an inno's kos.

Here is the problem. "KOS X" vs "X, tried to kill me, they might be a T" are not the same. One is instructing all players to instantly kill X, while tbe other would allow the attacked party to follow their own KOS per rules, without adding unneeded confusion and the possibility of so much RDM off In no KOS.
The effects are vastly different.

You can accomplish an In no KOS without saying KOS.

I agree with Echo and Grumpy here. This is the better solution. It isn't perfect either, as now there is an increase in RDM via Failing to Allow ID Time, but that in turn should decrease so many effects of RDM from other forms, such as following an Inno KOS.

Another thing to note. Ultimately, TTT is meant to be chaotic, so it isn't like we can cut out the Chaos factor with this rule change anyways. This is purely semantics over RDM and which form of it admins would rather swallow.
 
i never had issues with innos following inno koses (unless they’re new to the server) most of the time players understand to be weary of them. one issue that could happen is if someone calls an inno kos and kills them, then other ppl would kill him not understanding the situation.

agreed
I'm not sure how you could possibly say 'i *never* had issues with innos following inno kos"

It happens all the time. It happens so often that when I actually say KOS as an innocent, I instantly follow it up with "That's an inno KOS, don't follow that!"

And I know you've been playing TTT for long enough that there's no way it's *never* happened around you.
 
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I'm not sure how you could possible say 'i *never* had issues with innos following inno kos"

It happens all the time. It happens so often that when I actually say KOS as an innocent, I instantly follow it up with "That's an inno KOS, don't follow that!"

And I know you've been playing TTT for long enough that there's no way it's *never* happened around you.
no i do exactly like what you just described “kos x, that’s an inno kos only i can follow” almost always it’s ok
 
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I think MSWS and I may be agreeing for the first time ever.

I like this change. It gives more purpose for the innos, and relieves some of the pressure from detectives.

Is it harder to admin? Sure.
Unpopular (admin) opinion: suck it up and do better. \o
 
My thing with that is why is it on admins to do better here.
This is purely semantics over different forms of RDM. It has no reflection on how good or bad an admin is doing. As it is we "suck it up"(for the most part) without issue on a regular basis. Why add more moan and groan to the equation? Maybe it's something I'm not getting, but again this seems like semantics and over lawyering.
 
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