How good is "Good"?

[batlbot]

I know I am NOT a "good" TF2 player. I mean not real "skilled": I have lousy aim, I like to play W+M1 Pyro, I run into stickies, not a good jump/shoot/dodge person, etc. ad infinitum.

My question is, in terms of skill level, what makes for a really "Good" player.
So what I'd like to know is what are some objective measurements of a "Good" player skill wise?

Specifically things like:
kills per death ( I know this varies for instance it is relatively easy to get a higher k/d ratio if you only play Engi or are ALWAYS attached to a Medic).
Or typically how long do you stay alive in a single life.
How many typical kills in a single life as say Scout or Demo or Soldier?
Or maybe how many points would a "good" player rack up in ~1 hour on 2Fort or BlackMesa?


So i guess this is kind of a mini Poll. Put down your thoughts on what good numbers would be for these three data points. Add your own if you want...

Kills per death?
Points in 1 hour?
Minutes per life (in active battle)?

Just use some averages, I know different classes will have varying numbers but on the whole lets try to see if there is consensus on what makes a "Good" skilled player.

This is NOT meant to be a discussion on being a good team player. There are tons of intagibles (e.g. willingness to die for the greater good, not being a solo all the time, playing the needed class, etc.) All worthy of discussion, just not in this thread.

 

[xosniper]

if you can kill 2-4 players for every death, your a "good" player.

NOW, there are some factors that can inflate that number without actually being "better" than a "good" player, crit ubers.

 

[? Frisky Dingo ?]

K/D ratio isnt everything, and that doesnt really make a good player. I mean you can have 30 kills and 0 deaths and be a bad player. You can also have 10 kills and 30 deaths and be a credit to your team. Learn to work as a team...If you want to get better as pyro, learn to ambush properly and learn when to run away. Air blast is one of your best friends, not only to deflect projectiles but also to turn teammates that are on fire off. SPY CHECK, very important for pyros...help protect sentries as well as heavies from sneaky spies. Just takes practice and learn to stay with your team when making a big push.

 

[Hodgepodge]

A good player is not only skilled in one or two classes but will switch to a class that the team needs. Team Fortress 2 is a game that requires team work and having a team of all soldiers is not gonna make a team good. Now good players would usually have a medic on him or her before rushing to cap a point to increase the chances of survivability. Being a good player may mean wasting an uber to take out 3 sentries but it would allow your team to rush in and cap the point. Most of the things that make a good player is common sense. Say if you have a kritz medic on you and your attacking, you wouldn't run out first... you would wait till an uber runs out and then have the uber tank while you kill.

Now for the k/d ratio. It really depends on the caliber of the player but the minimum respected k/d for me is 4 to 1. It may start off low but throughout the course of the round it can really change.

The points in one hour really depends on the map. On 2 fort instant respawn the points in one hour will be greater than on cp yukon or regular 2 fort. Also some players may know a map better and so can easily find health packs or ammo when they're low on health or ammo. For me i average around 250 points to 300 points in one hour on egypt.

Also being a good player means mastering the advance tactics of tf2 like the compression blast, force jumping, and back stabbing an enemy when jumping over him.

 

[Stormrider^]

All of the above questions are not directly related to how good a player is.

A good players switches team when he notices that the other one keeps getting rolled and can't get a grip of winning and he also communicates with the rest of his team even if no one else uses the mic. Was there a spy there? Let your team know. Was there a sentry in a sneaky spot and you got killed by it and now want to throw your keyboard at a wall?
Let your team know about the sentry so say, a medic with a 100% uber won't get killed by it but rather use the uber to destroy it.

Also change classes when you need to, a good player at least knows how to play all the classes decently enough to stay alive.

As for the K/D ratio, I think it's rather good if it's just over 1. Then again, there will always happen something you did not expect, something straight out of nowhere many many times and you will lose your killstreaks, good K/D ratios so you can't pretty much rely on them.
Play the game, learn the game, and be with your team.

 

[batlbot]

K/D ratio isnt everything, and that doesnt really make a good player. I mean you can have 30 kills and 0 deaths and be a bad player. You can also have 10 kills and 30 deaths and be a credit to your team. Learn to work as a team...If you want to get better as pyro, learn to ambush properly and learn when to run away. Air blast is one of your best friends, not only to deflect projectiles but also to turn teammates that are on fire off. SPY CHECK, very important for pyros...help protect sentries as well as heavies from sneaky spies. Just takes practice and learn to stay with your team when making a big push.

Frisky, I think you missed the bottom of my post. I know team play is critical, that is not what I was asking about. I was specifically talking about skill in game play. I know the other discussion is important and critical to the game, just not what I was asking about.

Also, If you have 30 kills, and 0 deaths, in terms of "skill" you could not possibly be a poorly skilled (i.e. "bad") player. If one learns to get good at; ambush, airblast, spycheck, etc. ones "points" in the stats (being more "good") would get better without question.

 

[Green Lantern]

a good player plays for the team

 

[? Frisky Dingo ?]

Also, If you have 30 kills, and 0 deaths, in terms of "skill" you could not possibly be a poorly skilled (i.e. "bad") player.

I dont think you understood what I wrote. If you dont believe me then ask Kunai or Kotah about C&D spies that sit and wait in the shadows and get back to me. Some spies average 30 kills and O deaths the whole game and dont really contribute anything to a team. I average over 100 kills and close to 40-50 deaths and ask anyone if I am skilled. I read all your post and I dont believe that k/d ratio is anything really important. You get skill by working as a team and understanding what the situation needs. Skill relys greatly on team work, anything else is just saying my K/D is bigger than yours.

 

[Slinger O Guns]

I would say 2-3 kills in one life or so makes you a decent player.

And in the past I used to rack up about 100 points in 45 min. to and hour and a half on 2Fort.

But personally, I think what really makes you a good player is the ability to work with your teammates and play around how their playing. For instance if you notice that no one is going medic and your team is in desperate need of a medic and you switch. Or if your short on snipers because everyone is scared of the enemy snipers. Also I hate going Engineer but if we have zero or one Engineer I would switch. So I guess you could call this your adaptability, how well your adaptability is and how well you can complement your team is what makes you a good player.

 

[batlbot]

For the few previous posts; Great points, and I agree 100%.
However, I get the feeling no one read the whole post. Let me see if this helps, it is the last line in the seed post..

This is NOT meant to be a discussion on being a good team player. There are tons of intagibles (e.g. willingness to die for the greater good, not being a solo all the time, playing the needed class, etc.) All worthy of discussion, just not in this thread.

 

[? Frisky Dingo ?]

For the few previous posts; Great points, and I agree 100%.
However, I get the feeling no one read the whole post. Let me see if this helps, it is the last line in the seed post..

Perhaps you should change the post and ask how you can get better, seeing as everyone thinks the same way about what makes a player skilled. Freud would also probably say team work is a problem area for you.

 

[batlbot]

I dont think you understood what I wrote. If you dont believe me then ask Kunai or Kotah about C&D spies that sit and wait in the shadows and get back to me. Some spies average 30 kills and O deaths the whole game and dont really contribute anything to a team. I average over 100 kills and close to 40-50 deaths and ask anyone if I am skilled. I read all your post and I dont believe that k/d ratio is anything really important. You get skill by working as a team and understanding what the situation needs. Skill relys greatly on team work, anything else is just saying my K/D is bigger than yours.

Frisky, I see your point. You can't take the team play element out of the equation.
I have absolutely no doubt you are a skilled player, I've read the posts, seen the videos, etc. But still, your k/d of 2 to 1 (or whatever it would be), I would think is "good" in terms of skill.

I believe that a 2/1 ration would qualify as a "Good" player, that 3/1 would be bordering on really good, and anything much higher I would call into quesition the other part of the equation which is the team play aspect.

Again, I was trying to separate pure skill (ability to aim and dodge, if you will) from the other probably more important aspect of team play. Probably that is my mistake.

I think this will be a good debate though.

 

[Anonymous.User(s)]

Ill have good days and bad days with TF2. When im having a good day, i can get and average of 2 or 3 K/D, with exceptions of course (One lucky life i got 15 kills as a solo demoman).

As for points per hour, im not too sure, because i usually dont stay on any server for more than an hour at a time. Id estimate somewhere around 100-150.

Minutes per life in a battle is my weakness. I die frequently, my longest life in active battle was 15 minutes, but that was on another my crazy good luck days. An average life for me lasts about 1-3 minutes.

 

[ToiletPastries]

KPM > KD Ratio
Someone with a high KD ratio could just mean he's a camping demo or a camping engineer. Kills per minute defines a "skilled" or "good player.

IMO.

 

[? Frisky Dingo ?]

Frisky, I see your point. You can't take the team play element out of the equation.
I have absolutely no doubt you are a skilled player, I've read the posts, seen the videos, etc. But still, your k/d of 2 to 1 (or whatever it would be), I would think is "good" in terms of skill.

I believe that a 2/1 ration would qualify as a "Good" player, that 3/1 would be bordering on really good, and anything much higher I would call into quesition the other part of the equation which is the team play aspect.

Again, I was trying to separate pure skill (ability to aim and dodge, if you will) from the other probably more important aspect of team play. Probably that is my mistake,
I think this will be a good debate though.

Sigh this is my problem...while my K/D ratio is around 1:2 the other spy would be 30:0. Does that make him a better spy? While im out killing key targets and getting killed in return this other spy is taking out a single target who isnt really doing anything in the background and staying alive. Now according to you his K/D ratio is much better than mine...is he a better spy?

KPM > KD Ratio
Someone with a high KD ratio could just mean he's a camping demo or a camping engineer. Kills per minute defines a "skilled" or "good player.

IMO.

I would agree with this more.

 

[Stickyfinger]

Let's get this straight, a good player is one that is having fun regardless of kill/death ratio.

 

[Stormrider^]

Let's get this straight, a good player is one that is having fun regardless of kill/death ratio.

True, in a way. But I doubt you'd play in gathers etc. to have fun. You go out there to test out your skill against other good players.

 

[Ryken]

While I agree that a good player is a player that plays for the team and all of that, for the purpose of discussion here are my thoughts.

NOTE: I only play PL server, so these stats are based on Gold Rush, Badwater, and HooDoo, ONLY
NOTE: These numbers assume that the TEAMS ARE EVEN. Stacked teams result in stacked numbers, so think about what you could achieve if the other team was as good as your team and no one is getting rolled.

Kills per death:
Average 1:1
Good 2:1
Great 4:1
Godly 5+:1

Points per Hour:
Average 80
Good 100
Great 125
Godly 150+

Points per life is too hard because it doesn't tell me what others are getting and what I am even getting each life. Also, it varies too much with class. A sniper should have many many points per life, where a pyro can be just as effective by rushing into 5+ enemies and forcing them to retreat without killing anything.

I rarely see people with over 150 points in an hour. I've seen 200 points in an hour a couple of times, but this happens when great players have great moments, and someone is healing them almost constantly

 

[batlbot]

Sigh this is my problem...while my K/D ratio is around 1:2 the other spy would be 30:0. Does that make him a better spy? While im out killing key targets and getting killed in return this other spy is taking out a single target who isnt really doing anything in the background and staying alive. Now according to you his K/D ratio is much better than mine...is he a better spy?

In answer to your question; Clearly not.
I see now that I made a fundamental error in my question. I think I could have made it a better question with the addition of this (which was actually my intention):
ASSUMING you are acting at the time as a team player who governs your own individual play with the principles that; it is a team game, that working towards the common goal is fundamental to "good" play, that you reasonably choose your class based on the team, etc. etc.

I still believe there is value in the question, but you are right, there has to be a level playing field assumption from which to measure. I know I am a team player (most of the time) who advances the goal. I also know that I have a long way to go before I consider my SKILL to be good. I also know what I need to do to get there. I was just trying to figure out where "there" is, and stir some discussion.

 

[batlbot]

KPM > KD Ratio
Someone with a high KD ratio could just mean he's a camping demo or a camping engineer. Kills per minute defines a "skilled" or "good player.

IMO.

Good point. However, you still need skill to keep from getting killed while camping. Let someone like Sabion or Paperbag get killed by your camping-stickies and I guarantee you'll be dying from a vicious-rocket-storm you won't forget soon. ...Probably they don't get killed by those simple tricks anyway...